Help! Please!

[mandbaby]

I hope someone can offer some advice (or even just some support!)

I have 3 children (DS1 age 5, DS2 age 3.5 and a DD aged 4 months). My husband is a teacher and works so hard and is under so much pressure to keep his job (anyone who's a teacher or lives with one may understand me here). Although it's currently half-term, the only thing we've done as a family this week is a walk around our local lake with a picnic. The remainder of the time, DH is busy marking and planning just to keep his head above water at work). My boys get bored and what I can do with them is limited because of our 4 month old.

Our parenting views are very different. He thinks children should be ruled with an iron fist and that, whilst being loved, they should also be somewhat fearful of their parents (especially their father) and do exactly as they're "told". Somewhat Victorian I suppose. He doesn't think the odd smack on the bum does them any harm, in fact he probably thinks it's essential occasionally. My parenting views are evolving. About 8 months ago (whilst heavily pregnant) I smacked my then 4yo for running off from me in the park. I was horrified that I "lost it" so bad and since then have read several books on calmer parenting: only noticing the positives, how to speak to them to get them to do things, how to deal with tantrums, etc. However, due to the fact that there are three under-fives in our house, putting positive-parenting methods into action isn't always easy. I know the kind of parent I WANT to be, but being that parent is a daily (hourly!) effort.

If I ever shout at them, DH will smugly say something like "your books are working then?!"

But sometimes it feels like I have a bigger battle because I have no support with it. If MY methods don't work and the boys are still acting up, he will get angry with them as he it's what he believes they need.

But this isn't the biggest problem. DH is so tired, stressed and exhausted that it's making him take no further nonsense to add to his stress and fatigue. This morning I "overslept" and didn't hear the boys wake up (I'm currently sleeping in the baby's room). They went into their Dad who doesn't "do" mornings and when he (eventually) got up to make their breakfasts, etc, he lost it BIG TIME: yelling at our 3yo when he complained about his milk being too hot then too cold, and yelling in the face of our 5yo when he put his "adult" head on and started to lecture his Dad. I walked in the room and asked that he calm down and of course then I got yelled at because he thinks I'm having a go. (I suppose to some extent I was. I reminded him of their ages, which of course he's well aware of.) I suppose some of his anger is at himself for losing it so badly with two tiny human beings who are his world.

Now I'm walking on eggshells not to further add to the stress.

I know he's tired, stressed and worried for his job, but I want him to see that this, whether he agrees or not, is completely normal. Our boys are normal, excited, often challenging, clever boys. But when they don't do EXACTLY as and when he asks, he takes it personally and gets angry and thinks they need yelling at to get them to "obey". When he's in the classroom, his students do as he asks and if they don't, he yells. He told me yesterday that he isn't even "this stressed at work" - that he finds being with the boys at home harder than being at work, despite all the pressures he faces to get results and keep his job.

Every day I have blogs and quotes emailed to me from positive parenting websites that remind me of the kind of parent I want to be. I've forwarded the odd one to him in the past but he admits he doesn't read them as he doesn't have the time (and probably cos he thinks they're mumbo jumbo).

What can I do to make him see that there IS another, better way to parent? I can't talk to him today - he's currently ignoring me. We otherwise have an excellent relationship (work, stress, fatigue and children aside). We only ever "argue" occasionally and it's nearly always in the school holidays when the stresses of "family life" tip him over the edge. He's convinced that the boys are only ever "difficult" for him. He doesn't believe that I have all of this 24-7 and on only 3-4 hours sleep a night (currently going through teething etc with our 4 month old). He doesn't do anything at all in terms of care for the baby as she's BF and babies terrify him (even our third one!). No nappy changing, consoling when crying and I'm busy, etc.

On top of this, I'm currently going through a health scare that he knows nothing about (I'm going for tests next week).

I do wonder if he's depressed and some sort of counselling may help, but he'd NEVER agree to it.

Today, right now, it feels like we're at breaking point. Tomorrow, everything will be fine again and none of this will be an issue. But in a few months, possibly at the start of the Summer hols, the same thing will happen all over again.

Help!

Firstly, I hope you are ok with regards to your health. Secondly, can you put the older children in childcare one or two days/half days a week to give yourself a bit of a break? Looking after 3 at the same time, one of which is a baby is bound to be stressful.

I think you need to have a chat with your DH when you are sans children and a little bit more relaxed. Any chance you could have someone babysit whilst you two go out?

I know lots of teachers.
It's a bloody hard job.
But I suspect your husband is finding it hard because he's an arsehole who doesn't like kids.
Seriously - that's what I'm getting from your description of his behaviour.

Are sure you want to be with him, and him with you? Seems convenient that he has these arguments during the holidays, nice excuse to make it your fault he isn't doing anything.

He is sarcastic about your parenting ideas, and ignores you to punish you after arguments.

I don't think for one minute he is depressed - I think you're excusing his behaviour.

I think you need to have a really serious think about what you want in a partner. And if he's not it, give him an ultimatum, that you mean.

Seriously, I feel so cross for you reading that, he sounds like a total dick.

Thank you :)

We've booked some holiday clubs for the two boys for Easter for exactly this purpose - to have some time alone. Unfortunately, I've probably left it too late for this half-term. We do need to calmly discuss things (we did briefly the other night) but I suppose remembering what you've discussed and your very best intentions all goes out of the window in the heat of the moment.

I think mostly, you both just need a break and to spend some time together just the two of you (perhaps plus 4month old).

I'm assuming over Easter your DH has 2 weeks off? And therefore will have more time to relax rather than having to cram a load of marking in.

Sorry about your health scare too. Why haven't you shared it with your husband?
Tbh he sounds a bit like my dad, controlling and abusive. Surely as a teacher he knows that children are autonomous human beings who aren't suppposed to bend to the will of others.
I suppose it could be that he is very overtired? Does he snore, not sleep properly? That could affect his moods but it's his attitude that us disturbing.
How convenient that he doesn't 'get' babies easier. If he did he could look after the baby while you took the boys out, or take the boys out while you looked after the baby. In between his school work if course.

Threads like this just remind me of my dad so sorry not to be more helpful.

Your husband sounds like he has a problem with control. When things don't go exactly the way he wants them to, he loses it. Whether this is framed as 'children making life difficult' or 'a need to teach duty' doesn't really matter.

You are right to have concerns about the effect of this on your family. Not only is it terrifying and exhausting for you and your children now, but your kids will get older and will inevitably need to be given more independence, and ultimately to be able to make decisions for themselves that may not accord with your DP's views. In other words, this problem is only going to worsen over time if you don't tackle it now.

I suspect that this is a tendency that he's always had, but that it's exacerbated to a great degree by the stress that he is under. Teaching is a tough, tough job. Also, I think teachers sometimes fear losing control of a class, and also the education system gets used as a political football, so they are the victims from the bottom-up and top-down of behaviours over which they have no control. Small wonder, then, that he's looking to retain an unacceptable level of aggressive control at home, using aggression to reinforce it.

At base, I think you know what is wrong. It's interesting to me that your husband paints himself as a 'victim' of your boys - they are only difficult for him, not for you. It suggests a very embattled attitude. It sounds as though your husband reacts extremely badly to any sign that he isn't 'respected', and therefore must feel a considerable degree of fear about this. (I suspect the snarling at you about your different attitude to parenting is part of this: anyone who disagrees with his views is a threat to be undermined, not just different). He needs to explore the roots of this crippling insecurity with a counsellor, really. But if that can't happen, at least at an external level, he needs to understand that the world has moved on from when he was a child, and that parenting in this way right now will close doors with his children and create enormous problems when they are older.

I think you should also perhaps think about reducing his levels of stress and exhaustion. I'm not suggesting that you take on any more, OP, because you are clearly already operating beyond your limit. But is there any way that you can offload some of the work outside of you as a couple to help him out? It might mean prioritising getting a cleaner or a gardener, a babysitter so that the pair of you can go out as a couple at the weekend, help from grandparents or friends with childcare, or even reducing his hours via part-time work if that would be financially feasible.

Unfortunately, though, your first task is going to be getting him to admit that he does have a problem. And I suspect this may be very difficult indeed. All I can suggest is that you sit him down and you speak very softly and calmly and caringly to him. He will very likely get angry and perceive what you are saying as a criticism, and you will have to ignore it, and keep restating your concern for him and for your children until he opens up to the idea. It will very likely take time for the message to sink in, but I don't think you can afford not to act.

Shove the holly - totally agree.

Thanks everyone. Such good advice and lots of food for thought.

Funnily enough, DH has talked about in a year or two only working 4 days a week to get a better home-work balance. And, no, he doesn't sleep well. Snoring, back ache, etc. At the weekend he said he wasn't well in the afternoon and went to bed and didn't emerge for 16hrs but he still woke up tired.

I will ride this current wave (he is actually speaking to me at the moment and is clearly very embarrassed about what happened earlier). In a few days I will calmly broach the subject of counselling.

Very insightful post from shovetheholly.

OP, do you know what his upbringing was like? Was his father very strict, for example?

Er, I haven't read the whole thread, sorry, but would just like to say that as a teacher, if he is expecting unquestioning obedience and good behaviour, he will be 1) failing in the classroom 2) very stressed. Even in the 'nicest' school you have to praise the positive, avoid escalating, teach behaviours you want. Having said that, if you have to be doing that all day in the job, then come home and continue it, that can be the breaking point. Your children are so young, too. For what it is worth I think he is very stressed, but also needs to be pulled up on it and made clear he cannot behave like that. Good luck.

His father was the main breadwinner, worked hard, then played hard (i.e. went out drinking). He was frightened of his Dad in as much that if he didn't do as he was told, he'd get shouted at or smacked. Ironically, he hates his Dad now (his Dad is a nasty piece of work, a lousy dad, and an even worse Grandfather) and has zero respect for him.

Going back to his work in the classroom, he has no very few behaviour issues in the classroom. He has to issue few detentions and other sanctions and has a good relationship with most of his students who respect him and his authority. I think his issues are with "young" children because they're so care free and don't want to do as an adult tells them.

Another of his home issues, I feel, is inconsistency. Just one example: quite often, he'll play cowboys with the boys and let them ride on his back - they love it. But sometimes, if he's pre-occupied reading emails, etc on his phone and they try and climb on him to make him play cowboys, he'll get ratty and irritable telling them "no". When they don't take no as an answer because they can't understand why sometimes he'll play and sometimes he won't, he'll start shouting at them. He also complains that they don't listen, but I often hear them calling "dad" when he's got his nose in his phone. Sigh.

This sentence in your post made me sad :

We otherwise have an excellent relationship (work, stress, fatigue and children aside).

because at the moment, and for the forseeable, those four things are what make up your lives, so the excellent relationship bit isn't going to get a look in

He does sound like one of those men that (oh so helpfully) goes a bit loopy with the arrival of a baby (did his stress levels ramp up when your boys were born?)

If that is the case then I suppose it will gradually ease off as no 3 gets older.

but it sounds like these issues run much deeper, and in particular your different approaches to parenting, which sound like they are tied up with his past.

Would he accept the idea of relationship counselling, just to get some of these things out in the open in a constructive way?

Yes he has been stressed shortly after the arrival of all our children. For the record, this may surprise everyone, it was actually HIM that wanted a large family. He talked me into having a third dc.

I will definitely broach the subject of relationship and/or parenting counselling with him. I think it would be so beneficial for all five of us.

Wanted a large family but doesn't much appear to like his kids?

Nice way to keep to stuck with him.