Sensitive questions about unhealthy relationships...

[LokiBear]

I've come to the conclusion that there are aspects of my relationship that are unhealthy and, at times, my husbands behaviour is very controlling. For example, if I get annoyed or upset about something, he will claim that me voicing my opinion is hurtful to him/ruining his evening. He will try and make me feel bad for saying something that he doesn't want to hear. Then he will turn me about in knots, bringing up past issues, calling me names and storming off, only to apologise later. I called him on this during the last argument we had. I told him it is emotional abuse and refused to back down. He tried to storm off, but later backed down and agreed to go to relate. We are on the waiting list. Since then, he has been better. However, there have been a couple of times when he has made a controlling comment and I just feel a bit confused. An example would be the other day when I told him I was meeting a friend I work with for lunch during a holiday from work. No biggie, it's a female friend. He then started commenting on how he was 'surprised that you want to meet up, don't you see enough of each other at work?' He made it really clear that he didn't want me going. I called him on the comment. Told him he was out of order and that he shouldn't make me feel bad for meeting a friend for lunch. I do not do anything without him or my dd except for work. He doesnt go out much either but goes to the football every week. Later on he started to go on about a uni reunion that I am considering going to and how he was 'confused' about why I would want to go. He then basically said he was concerned I'd cheat. He has no reason to worry about this.
My question is this; I'm standing up to him. I'm not letting him control me but it is hard work. I know that a true abuser makes it impossible for his victim to fight back. I think what I'm trying to say is I don't think he is an abuser. I know that he has issues but he isn't a bad person. But, I dont want to live like this. Can relate help us? He isn't a bad person. In many ways, he is lovely. He just has real insecurity issue. His mother is very manipulative which has rubbed off. He wasn't always like this. We've been together 14 years.Am I kidding myself that we can resolve this?

OP sorry you're going through this. I haven't ever been in this situation, but didn't want to read and run, so here's my tuppence worth:

• if he hasn't always been like this, what has changed? Has something happened that has caused this change in his behaviour? It could be very helpful to understand what that might be before you got to Relate, as a contributing factor.
• secondly, he IS being abusive. The on,y reason it isn't working is you have enoug balls and self esteem to stand up to him and tell him to sod off. He is trying all the classic tricks you here on Mumsnet about abusive people - limit your access to other people, claim it's because of their insecurity etc.
• I'd suggest he needs individual counselling, and that you do too, to keep your own mental strength, and be clear about what you want here.
• I'd be tempted to have a sit down conversation where you lay out some rules: I will see my friends whenever I want, I will go to my reunion and you will not moan about it, etc. any issues you have with that are yours and you need to seek counselling for them, they are not my problem.
• think now what your 'cutoff' is I.e. If he does/says 'X' I walk. Because at the time you may have begun to doubt yourself, but if you've thought about it in advance, you'll recognise what is happening and know you need to take action.

Take care.

When a partner doesn't like the other going out I always put it down to insecurity, worrying that the other partner will cheat etc

Now I think there are varying degrees of it. Some men won't actually let their wives out and refuse to discuss it.

If you love your dp and he does let you out but makes snide remarks then IMO considering he's admitted to you he's worried you will cheat, I think that's a good start.

Also the fact he has said he will get help is a good start but he needs to realise his insecurity is his monster alone, not yours, you did to cause it and can't cure it by staying in.

I think the change is because we have been together a long time. I think we've both changed as we've got older. We've been together since we were 18. We've got married, had our daughter. I supported him through a major career change. I think he is waiting to feel satisfied with his lot. He always has a project on the go and constantly wants something more. It frustrates me a lot because I am the type of person who is happy with simple things. Sometimes I think he wants more from me than I can give.

If you think you can resolve this you are frankly kidding yourself. Denial is a powerful force after all.

What do you get out of this relationship now?. What has kept you within this for all this time?.

Do not do joint counselling with this man under any circumstances; its never recommended where there is or has been any type of abuse within the relationship. Relate are not always helpful when it comes to abusive relationships either; abusers can often manipulate the counsellor as well and they can use such sessions as a further stick to beat their victim with even if they do bother to attend (which your man likely will not do anyway because he feels that his treatment of you is right).

You have simply become conditioned and inurred to such behaviours from him over time.

Your DD sees all this as well, what do you think she is learning about relationships here?. His actions are not those of either a loving man or father. He is an appalling example of both. Would you want her as an adult to end up with a man like her dad, you are showing her that currently at least this is all acceptable to you. What lessons is she learning about relationships here from the two of you?.

Controlling behaviour like he shows you is abusive behaviour and the nice/nasty cycle of abuse is typical as well as his wanting to control whom you see socially.

He was likely all sweetness and light in the early days as well as being (perhaps still) to a degree plausible to those in the outside world. You were very young when you met and you basically had no life experience behind you.

Why do you not think he is abusive?. Or do you really not want to think that he is abusive?. He is insecure yes but he wants you and has you in a gilded cage of his own paranoid making. His mother is probably the same in terms of personality as he is; such behaviour is deeply ingrained and he indeed learnt this from her.

I would suggest actually contacting Womens Aid as they would be far more useful to you than Relate ever would be here. Reading "Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft may also be helpful too.

I'm in a really similar situation, even some of the wording your dh uses sounds familiar. Like you, I don't like it and am working to try to change things but as he's otherwise a good dh its not make or break. It would be for some people but only you can decide whether it is for you. My one piece of advice is to keep challenging it no matter how tiring it is
I started to give in and it just got worse. Like you, I believe its down to insecurity.

Suggesting that you would cheat is extremely offensive.

I think what I'm trying to say is I don't think he is an abuser. I know that he has issues but he isn't a bad person.
I don't really think the label 'abuser' is necessarily helpful. Most "abusers" have a troubled past, insecurities, often toxic or abusive parents. That's why they became abusive. They don't intend to be abusive or to be a bad person. That is half the problem of dealing with them: they simply refuse to believe that the problem is them not you, they genuinely believe that you should tolerate their behaviour. It is justified. Every apology will come with a justification, a reason that it is not their fault, a reason why they could not help themselves, a reason why you are overreacting, a reason why it was actually your fault that they behaved badly.

Many people confuse understanding why a person is badly behaved with accepting the bad behaviour. You can understand without accepting. Sometimes that means walking away.

He wasn't always like this. We've been together 14 years. Am I kidding myself that we can resolve this?
I certainly think that Relate is a non-starter. The problem here is with his behaviour. This is not a matter of compromise. It is a matter of him sorting out the mental health problems that result in mis-treating you.

Has he taken any moves, of his own volition, to get treatment for his inability to cope with you voicing a negative opinion, for his troubled relationship with his mother, for his deep insecurities? Who decided to go to Relate and made the appointment? What solutions has he offered?

If he desperately wanted to change, then he would have sought the help to do so. He hasn't. That says it all. You aren't worth it.

Despite all that, however, to me, the most important thing you wrote is I dont want to live like this.

So don't. It really is that simple.

My question is this; I'm standing up to him. I'm not letting him control me but it is hard work.
I know that a true abuser makes it impossible for his victim to fight back.

I think that you're misunderstanding a bit. It's not that when there is "true abuse" it's impossible to fight back - it's always possible to fight back, as long as you are a person with free will, which of course you are. The issue is that "Not letting him control me" is a hell of a lot of work all the time. In the end, it doesn't amount to a relationship at all. If you have to work hard to make your partner not abuse or control you, then firstly you're kidding yourself (sorry) - the fact that you're doing this elaborate dance to avoid the abuse/control IS abuse. Emotional abuse is the term you're looking for here. And secondly when you are having to do so much, you can't ever just relax and be yourself and let your guard down. Your husband should be the one you come home to, feel safe with. Not someone you have to guard yourself against all the time.

I think what I'm trying to say is I don't think he is an abuser. I know that he has issues but he isn't a bad person.

The vast majority of people who play out abusive scripts in relationships aren't monsters or psychopaths. If they were, we would never have been interested in them in the first place! Of course there will be good parts to him as well as the parts which are more difficult - that is how people work, all people, including people who act in abusive ways. The difference is that if he's allowing the difficult parts of himself to hurt the person that he loves, that's not okay. Of course everyone has their baggage and issues to work on, but they are his responsibility. It's his responsibility to make sure that his unresolved baggage doesn't hurt you, and it's not alright for him to use it as some kind of excuse or justification.

But, I dont want to live like this. Can relate help us? He isn't a bad person. In many ways, he is lovely. He just has real insecurity issue. His mother is very manipulative which has rubbed off. He wasn't always like this. We've been together 14 years.Am I kidding myself that we can resolve this?

I don't think that Relate would be a good choice here, for the reason that it's not recommended to undertake relationship counselling where there is any kind of abuse in the relationship. If it's only the jealousy issue, then it might be something you can work on. But he has to want it himself - how does he feel about his jealous behaviour? Is he eating himself up at this problem - the fact he doesn't want to control or hurt you, but equally the fear is too big for him not to? Or does he feel that he's totally justified and that you should put up with it and/or not act in ways which make him feel insecure? If it's the first one, then it might be worth you going for some individual counselling separately. If it's the second, then he probably won't want to go for counselling anyway, and even if you persuade him, it would be a waste of time and money. He has to see the problem to want to change it.

I see all sorts on here and where there's a will there's a way. He wants to change, he has lots of good points, don't give up if he said he is prepared to try and change.

If that doesn't work then of course think about an exit but if he wants to change and be different then where's the harm in trying? Considering you have set up a life together and so on.

Show him this thread even.........

I know that a true abuser makes it impossible for his victim to fight back.

I disagree. The position you are in is typical of abuse in that you think you are fighting back, and you think you can control it, or make it better by your response to it.
But you can't, because if you call him on one thing, there will be another, and it will be relentless. Until you are too tired to fight.
This is the time to let go.

Christ do not show him that you've written a thread about him.

You say he has been better lately.

In that time have you let yourself be normal?

Have you allowed yourself to get annoyed or upset and voice that?

Have you gone out with friends fairly often?

If not, how do you know if he is being better? You haven't given him the opportunity to show it. Or to show the opposite.

For me, with three primary age DC and both of us having demanding jobs (mine PT), I normally I meet a friend for lunch or coffee or a run at least once a week, a meet up out at night at least once a month. I am not an extrovert. We often tell each other our woes.

To me, it sounds awfully like you have curtailed your life in an attempt to make him feel better.

It's not true that an abusive person always prevents their victim from fighting back. Bullying takes all kinds of forms and victims are not necessarily weak or silent. Some enjoy goading their victim into losing their temper or acting out of character. Some want to grind you down by being antagonistic and petty.

If it's hard work standing up for yourself all the time, you're probably being subjected to abuse . In a healthy relationship the times you have to make a stand are few and far between.

He wasn't always like this.

Actually I think you are doign everything right. You are calling him, you are standing up to him. He will be controlling for as long as he can be, but you are not letting him be.

From what you say he will only get worse (becuase he didn't used to be like this but is now) if you don't stand up to him.

I'm not sure Relate can help much here, but it's worth trying.

In the end you might pull through together, but it will take a lot of hard work on your part and on his, he needs to acknowedge what he's doing. You need to keep holding the mirror up to him and telling him that it's not ok, you have your own life to lead. It's very sad when someone ends up being afraid to go out and to have a life of their own because their husband is so repressive in his outlook. If it becomes too much like long term hard work or if he gets worse, it's a very good reason to separate.

Also, you have to consider what sort of example it is for your daughter. If his behaviour is kept in check it might be okay-ish. If his behaviour is out of control then it's not.

I'm not as optimistic as the PP. I think it's good to stand up to people but that, if you spend too much of your time in a relationship waiting for the next ridiculous accusation, anticipating confrontation, and then having to deal with it you're eventually going to resent the other person so much that you've no relationship left. I would also expect that, however much you stand up for yourself, you are not acting genuinely freely. You will be modifying all the time trying to avoid more hassle.

Thank you for all of the replies. You have given me lots to think about. DH hasn't previously seen his mother as manipulative, but I have. He is so conditioned to it and has been reluctant to accept it. The last argument we had was because of his family. They had asked if we wanted to join them on holiday this year. However, they wanted to go during the same week that we usually book our family holiday (it's cheaper because our school holidays are different, we always go during this week because we can get so much more for our money). They and SIL wanted to choose the location, they wanted us all to stay in a big house together. They would plsb the weeks activities. Essentially we would just hand over our share of the money and get no choice in the where or when. I told dh I couldn't face a whole week with in laws as they tend to take over with dd. We agreed that we wanted our own holiday just the three of us so we asked if they would consider going a different week so that we could have our own holiday and just join them for a few days. They said no. So we said thanks for inviting us but no thanks. They booked their holiday, then we booked ours 1.5 hours away. The compromise being that we would meet up with them for a day. They then cancelled their booking, booked into a house next door to the caravan site we are staying in and made out like it was all a big accident/coincidence despite knowing where we has booked. DH tried to insist that they didn't do it on purpose, even though mil later admitted to me that they did. I was fuming, because they have manipulated the situation to get what they wanted. They tried emotional manipulation, but when that didn't work, they just flat out changed their holiday. I told mil that we wanted our own space and wouldn't be spending the holiday with them. She got a bit huffy. When they left, I told dh how upset I was and he leapt to their defence. That was the straw that broke the camels back for me. The argument escalated and he got nasty and that was when I called him on the EA. His parents are interfering. These are the people that booked a viewing to see a house we were considering buying when we refused to take them with us during our viewing. The people who insisted we give them an emergency key, only to find that one day whilst we were out shopping they had let themselves in and we got home to find SIL drinking tea in the kitchen whilst MIL cleaned and FIL mowed the lawn. When I had dd, MIL left the house as my parents arrived saying that we didn't need a houseful (they'd been there an hour) and then phoned dh from the car sobbing because she just 'knew she would never get to be as close to dd as my mum and it want fair'. I stand up to them, but DH feels caught in the middle and often tries to defend them to me even when they are clearly in the wrong because he is afraid to challenge and upset them.
When I say he has been better recently, I mean that he is trying. I'm challenging him (like with the meeting a friend for lunch thing) and telling him that he is being controlling, it's wrong and I won't put up with it. He is listening. Before he would have tried to convince me I was offending him and he'd go off on a rant. This time I got the last word. I know that sounds silly but it doesn't usually happen.

I don't know what I'm going to do. I do feel like we have got into a bad pattern and I feel like I owe it to my dd to try and fix things. He adores her and he is great with her. She loves him so much. It is hard to explain but in many ways he is a good husband. I just feel like I am still waiting for him to learn that he can trust me. And that his parents' interference is not love, it is control. I think he is starting to realise that he needs to stand up to his parents, he leapt to my defence yesterday when he thought mil has annoyed me (he got the wrong end of the stick and mil hadn't actually done anything, but it was nice to see him prepared to challenge her). Thanks for reading if you get this far. Writing this down is helping.

"I just feel like I am still waiting for him to learn that he can trust me"

You don't have to prove anything to him. You don't have to justify yourself. It is not your responsibility to change his personality any more than it is his role to change yours. If you don't like who he is, move on. If he doesn't like who you are, ditto.

It sounds as if there are hopeful signs. If your husband lept to your defense that's something.

But I would cancel your own holiday and go somewhere and make the point that you are not telling them. (I'd be absolutely fuming in your shoes!).

Also ... you have changed the locks, right??

But if he doesn't carry on improving, or if it long term gets too much endlessly having to put your foot down, then it is ok to separate. But there are hopeful signs.

Have you posted about the ILs before? It sounds a bit familiar.

Your last post was all about the ILs and how they are controlling and how he should stand up to them and on "your"/the family side.

But, your first post was about how controlling and manipulative he is. That is the problem, not the ILs.
And you have to decide if you are prepared to go on a life of dodging and fighting off his manipulation and controlling tendencies or if you'd rather have a relaxed life where you can do your own thing within reason.

I asked the ils for they key back! I think I was trying to explain where DH'S control issues come from by bringing up my ils. He has grown up in an environment where his mother uses emotional manipulation to get what she wants. I feel like I have had my eyes opened recently, before I would allow myself to be convinced that my ils were lovely people who didn't mean to overstep the mark. However, recently I've come to realise that they aren't. What they do is deliberate to get their own way. It is the same with dh. Previously, I convinced myself that he didn't mean to be horrible, he was sorry so it was ok. Now I've sort of woken up. I've realised that all of these people are walking all over me. I've had enough and I'm fighting back. With my ils, this means that I'm not backing down and I'm calling them on their behaviour. Same with my DH really. I'm sick of being a doormat. That's why I've posted here, I really hope things can change. However, I have no confidence in myself and then start second guessing myself. This is keeping me strong.

By all means try to reach to your OH, call him on it and see if he does the work required to stop his abusive behaviour.
But I think it is healthy to give yourself a time frame to evaluate how it is going and if you are not happy by then, then consider the option where you extricate yourself from this environment.

You are quite right not to back down! and to call him, every single time. Some people respond to that, some don't .. and it is exhausting.

As lweji said, maybe give it a certain time frame then consider calling it quits.

And cancel yoru holiday. Fecking intrusive, lying, manipulative thing of the ILs to do.