Query for a moral dilemma

[JoeCollins]

Preface: I've known this girl since we were in college. Over 10 years, and we've kept in touch on again, off again. Never in a "relationship" other than friendship where the most physical thing we've done is flag football.

My friend and I were having coffee today. She married a guy two years ago who already had a child. After that child, he didn't want any more kids, not at all. He was, to say the least, very up front about this. This was a bit of a running joke at the wedding, not because he didn't want any more, but because she didn't want ANY and here she was inheriting one. Fast forward now, and he's talking to her about getting a vasectomy. They don't want kids, and this way she wouldn't have to take hormonal birth control, she just has to live without fun for a few weeks. She agreed to this, but is having him plan it for the fall. They're big outside people (camping, et al) and this way they don't miss out on their usual outdoor activities.

Well, that's the reason she gave him.

She told me she's already stopped taking her birth control pills. Seems like caring for his "little monster" (a joke, you can't avoid it, the kid's there, it's gonna happen, she is a part-time mom) has awoken her apparently latent mommy instinct. She's also eating all her meals carefully, working out lightly, you get the idea. Add in some extra fun time with him, and she's making a major play to become a mom by having an "oops" baby. I told her she should just own up to him about wanting a baby, but she says he is sure he doesn't want any more kids. I asked if this meant she asked him, brought up her wants, and she played word games a bit dodging the answer.

Now I'm in a moral quandary. I'm friends with her, and she told me this in confidence. I don't know this guy at all really. I don't even know if he'd believe me if I told him, because we don't know each other, or if he'd assume an ulterior motive.

This is not the woman I know, and I don't just mean wanting kids. I mean, the woman I knew would never have even considered this duplicitous action. The quandary is not just the moral "told in confidence" though. We've told each other things that are extremely personal, extremely private, some that could be extremely damaging if exposed in both directions.

I don't like the idea of staying silent here. I consider what she is doing morally wrong. No one, man or woman, should make a decision like this by fiat. Apparently two (female) friends have said this isn't so bad because, since she's helping to take care of his first kid, she's got a "right" to have her own with him. Since I'm apparently the lone voice telling her to be honest and tell him, it wouldn't be much of leap to figure out who told him, even if done via note or similar.

I don't know what's happened to my friend. I used to hold her out as the prime example of actual equality in action. Now, well, I just don't know how to handle it without it blowing up in my face.

Yep. Nothing to do with you. And you don't have any proof, anyway.

It rather does sound like you have an ulterior motive. Are you sure you don't?

I don't think you can do anything. If you knew the other guy then yes maybe you could have warned him and I bet he would be super careful until the vasectomy but you don't know him.

What you can do is tell your friend her behaviour is shocking and terrible. This is a huge deceitful thing and IMO she's a disgrace. If her marriage fails because of it then it's all her own fault.

What quitelikely said!

well, there is a thread further down from someone whose friend had a secret vasectomy without his partner's knowledge, and the general consensus is that the op of that thread should tell his partner. as far as to give him an ultimatum - he tells her or she will. I don't personally agree with that as it is his body and his choice if he doesn't want children. but trapping someone into having a baby when they have made it clear they want to be sterilised is the lowest of the low. I would be tempted to tell in that instance.

Definitely let sleeping dogs lie. You can say to your friend that you don't think she should be dishonest but that's as far as it goes. If they have a surprise baby you should look as surprised and delighted as anyone else.

She is your friend ....you don't really know him. I agree it's a pretty awful thing to do. Let her know you think so but as for interfering further. Huge huge no.

I know it's a shock and disappointing when you think you know someone and you suddenly see a different side to them revealed but you can't wade in. She told you in confidence. You barely know her partner and she would deny it.

And as you mention you have exchanged confidences do you want her lobbing a grenade into your life in return?

You can only push her to tell her DH if you want to keep your friendship. Unfortunately breaking her confidence is likely to end your friendship, so you need to decide how important her DH having all the facts befor the oops happens is to you.

I would persist in trying to encourage her to tell him and be honest.
Don't give up on that. And you could include threatening to tell him as part of it... (even if you don't intend to follow through)

But ultimately you have received a confidence and you should respect it. It's highly immoral behaviour by her but no one is in physical danger. If she succeeds, she won't be the first woman and won't be the last to get pregnant without the consent of the man. Ultimately a man knows that every time he has sex he is risking getting a woman pregnant - EVEN if he uses a condom, even if she is on the pill. Accidents happen.

I think you should also bear in mind that when people are involved in anything that strongly matters to them emotionally they can behave in wild, crazy and sometimes dangerous ways that are very out of character. Think of all the assaults and murders that happen when partners discover affairs.

If she is acting very out of character in your view, it is probable that she is in a high state of emotion. This in turn means that if you choose to interfere in something that she will see as none of your business - you have no idea how she will react. Not least because you don't know what the consequences will be. Her partner may be so disgusted that he leaves her immediately. She may see you as the evil person that ended all her hopes of a child for ever. You have no idea.

She may become all consumed with getting revenge on you. And if she has info that you have shared with her, you could be very vulnerable. And even if she doesn't know anything, putting yourself in the path of someone already acting out of character because of strong emotional feeling is not very sensible.

I would tell the husband and break all ties with the friend. This is despicable.

I agree with DistanceCall. It sounds like she isn't the kind of person you want as a friend any more, so it's not as if you're going to miss the friendship. Whatever your reasons, you should do the right thing for the DH - nobody deserves what she is planning.

Despicable? Break ties? Of course the friend should be more honest with the DH and should feel able to say 'I've changed my mind' but, if they don't, it hardly makes them an evil villain. The friend has confided in the OP and, while he doesn't have to approve, he doesn't have the right to betray her confidence either. I bet she knows a few things about him that he wouldn't like to go any further

I would be very tempted to tell the husband I have to say. I know it's a confidence and all that but it's a despicable thing to do and I would feel very sorry for the husband if he was landed with a baby he didn't want.

She is a gold-plated idiot. There's no way I could continue a friendship with someone like this.

It's not just a case of changing her mind though is it Cogito - she's deceiving him into having a child he definitely doesn't want.

There's nothing wrong with changing your mind. But there is everything wrong with completely ignoring another person's clear wishes and changing their life forever because you're too much of a coward to actually talk about what you want.

Cogito, knowingly bringing a child into the world when you know that is not what the father wants is a huge deal, life changing. It's effectively deliberate sabotage of that persons life. Despicable is the word.

He said he didn't want any. She said she didn't want any. And yet they're both still fertile so how adamant is adamant? Yes she's being cowardly and deceptive and yes it's going to change their lives and probably damage their marriage if a there's an unexpected pregnancy. The OP is entitled to point that out but not act as judge and jury.... and certainly not go whispering into ears.

I'd break ties too if I'd advised to talk to him and she didn't. There are little white lies and there are whoppers that fuck up another person's choices and life.

How funny that two people have a symmetrical moral dilemma within weeks of each other! It's like a film!

I don't think most women would get pregnant if they had a strict deadline of autumn, would they? What will she do if she isn't pregnant by then? Leave him?

Knowing a friend of mine is about to deliberately fuck up another person's life would weigh too heavily on my conscience - I'd have to do something about it.

I think that what she is doing is utterly reprehensible.

Why did he decide to put it off to the autumn, though? Now, although the complication rate is higher than people think, for 99% of men it's totally straightforward and interruption to sex like is a matter of a few days (not several weeks).

Is there any way you could dodge the tell/not tell issue and give him the facts about recuperation time and suggest that if he acts now it'll all be safe by summer (unless he takes an age to clear)? You could allude to it getting to safer quicker, so it's done and he doesn't have to think about a contraceptive failure again?

(Well, there is a fail rate, but at 1:2000 it's so small it barely registers as a worry).

I would tell him......she's deliberately trying to trap him into something he will never be able to get out of. Imagine yourself in his shoes being forced into a situation where you are emotionally and financially involved for the rest of your life.

and if she can pull a devious trick like that on him she can't truly have any respect for him?

Yep, butt out, it's absolutely none of your business.
You will come to find that life isn't always black and white.
For what it's worth, I know someone who did exactly the same as your friend, and her husband absolutely adores their children (x2) and wouldn't be without them for the world.
Concentrate on your own relationship, if you have one, and stop trying to be God.

Mind your own, really.