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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

is my sister 'toxic'? and if so, what should I do?

25 replies

ladygaga1980 · 05/02/2015 10:34

I have never posted about my dsis before but I am at a complete loss as to what is going on/what to do.

Firstly, my dsis is clearly stressed/under pressure as she has a toddler and another on the way. she works 3 days a week as a teacher and her dh works away during the week. her dh is quite critical of things (housework etc) and my dsis doesn't get on well with both our mother or her mil (the both have mh issues). she has friends but I think she is quite closed with them. So she is under quite a bit of pressure. She is a great mum though, and always sings and plays etc with her dd.

The problem is with me. She seems to have a level of spite/hatred/disrespect for me that I feel is undeserved. She accuses me of being an 'attention seeker', of being 'nuts', of having 'no emotions' (because I am on ADs). She nit-picks at everything I say and do and freaks out in front of her dd if I challenge her in any way about how she speaks to me. Last Friday she threw a cake at the wall (we were making cupcakes for her dds birthday party). she orders me out of her house quite often and talks about me unfavourably to her dh. last summer I was severely depressed and tried to reduce contact with her but she started being nicer to me so I caved in.

The problem is really that I love her and her dd (whom I babysit quite often) but that contact is often fraught and upsetting. But she is my only family apart from my dh and dm.

I don't know what to do as I am also worried in case she is heading for a breakdown or something (she had one in late teens but never speaks about it). I don't want to stand back and not be a 'good sister'. But her anger is destroying me.

And to add to it all I might be having IVF this year and I don't know how it is going to affect things.

Does anyone have any advice/experience of such situations? I feel I don't have any perspective...

We are both early 30s btw.

OP posts:
Quitelikely · 05/02/2015 10:40

There is no way I would tolerate someone treating me this way.

I would give your sister a wide berth and if she asks why then tell her.

She is only nice to you again after she realises you have backed off and she needs/wants you to babysit.

You aren't a doormat. Take a stand. Say no or avoid her. She is never going to be the sister you want.....

MajesticWhine · 05/02/2015 10:44

Sorry, I don't have any experience of this directly. But I do think this sounds like a toxic relationship, and you would be well advised to have some very clear boundaries with her. Glad you are able to challenge her on the way she speaks to you. She does sound like she is really struggling with life and very unfairly taking it out on you. It is not unusual for people to project all their anger and dissatisfaction onto their siblings. I am wondering what the background is to all this? Were you more successful as a child? Did you attract more attention in the family? Who was the clever one, the sick one the naughty one? Is there something about your life that she envies, or something in the past that she hasn't got over. Could be something you think is trivial, but these things that are perceived as unfair in childhood can have a lasting legacy.

ladygaga1980 · 05/02/2015 10:45

thanks quite I think you are right. It's just so hard not seeing my neice. But I can't sacrifice my sanity. I suppose I need to work out some 'boundaries'... but I have trouble maintaining these I suppose.

OP posts:
ladygaga1980 · 05/02/2015 10:53

thanks majestic she there is definitely 'background' stuff... that is why I give her the benefit of the doubt. Our parents were alcoholics and a bit neglectful. I was an angry, unhappy child and took my frustrations out on my dsis (e.g. name calling, occasional hitting). I am so.ashamed of this and have apologised/tried everything to make it up to her as an adult (e.g. for part 15 years or so).

She used to be quite a sweet girl actually but her dh makes her unhappy with his constant criticism. But I don't think talking about our/her past or present is an option..she can't handle it...

OP posts:
MajesticWhine · 05/02/2015 11:11

Yes, best not to go there maybe. Maybe she thinks you were not punished as a child (due to the dodgy parenting) and it's all desperately unfair, and that you still deserve some retribution. And the critical DH probably brings that feeling back. Why am I getting criticised when everything's her fault?
Of course, the past is not an excuse, but it's an explanation, and having alcoholic parents is a notorious precursor to mental health problems. So perhaps keeping that in mind relieves some of the blame you feel towards her and maybe also yourself.

ladygaga1980 · 05/02/2015 11:24

thanks majestic yeah i think 'blaming' is prob not a good response. It's just quite, the whole thing.

OP posts:
ladygaga1980 · 05/02/2015 11:24

*quite messy

OP posts:
Joysmum · 05/02/2015 11:37

She'll continue to treat you the way you allow her to. It'll be interesting to see how she reacts if you pull her up on things she says/does and point out that the more unpleasant she is, the less you want to see her.

Fantasmicos · 05/02/2015 14:37

Orders you out of her house WTF
I'd get out & stay out if someone made me unwelcome like that. She sounds like a lunatic. I'd try a clear conversation about what is & isn't acceptable & if she can't stay within your boundaries then there's not much scope for a relationship sadly

AHatAHatMyKingdomForAHat · 05/02/2015 20:06

My siblings and I had a horrid childhood. We were quite horrible to each other at times as children, much more so than in normal families I think.

As adults, none of us has every treated the others the way your sister has treated you.

A bad childhood is not a free pass for bad behaviour.

Just stay away from her. Politely disengage.

ladygaga1980 · 05/02/2015 21:30

thanks kingdom I have always felt guilty

OP posts:
DeckSwabber · 05/02/2015 22:36

I think few 'people' are toxic but some relationships are.

I think you need to get to the bottom of why she is angry with you.

I don't mean to sound unkind but from your posts it sounds as if you feel you are the nice one and she's the crazy one.

Have you ever got on well? I ask because if you haven't got 'good times' to fall back on it may be as well to leave it alone.

And as children of alcoholics you probably both have a lot to work through - maybe start there? Do you ever talk about that with her?

RosyAuroch · 05/02/2015 22:44

My aunt was like with DM for years and years. It just got worse and worse- critical attacks at family gatherings, insane competitiveness over who'd host family Xmas/buy the best presents, really, really hurtful horrible stuff.

My aunt didn't want to deal with and actually really enjoyed it I think, especially as my mum got older. My aunt had always been a bit overshadowed when they were younger, both academically and physical attractiveness, and never really got over it. When younger she always tried it on with my mum's boyfriend's apparently, including making a pass at my dad one time. I didn't believe that myself until I her her flirting wholeheartedly and outrageously with my mum's ex at my mum's funeral. Which kind of tore it for me tbh. He was pretty shocled and having none of it to be fair to him, as he knew she had form.

Anyway, my mum felt pretty guilty about being more successful when they were younger, and also a few things like thumping her when they were under 5s. She tried and tried for years, and put up with cruel things like being ordered out of the house, gossiped about, sent to coventry, going round one year with a birthday cake she had baked (when she was struggling a bit on a pension) and having the cake taken out of her hands ans the door slammed in her face for her troubles.

DM would insist I maintained a relationship with my aunty even when aunty was being an utter cow to her, as she didn't want the family to totally disintegrate. She put up with loads. And aunty just got a bigger and bigger kick out of the cruelty and power trip angle. Told me after DM died that she didn't regret anything she'd done, one of he most important things in life is to learn how to fight dirty when you are outgunned in a fair fight.

My point is, unless your DSis has insight into her own behaviour and genuinely regrets it, wants to change and works hard to do so, you are on an absolute hiding to nothing.

So I would go NC, swiftly and simply. If any family members get involved, have a very short and truthful simple statement of explanation like "DSis treats me very badly and I don;t see signs of that changing, so it is better for me not to be involved in that situation". And stick to it.

Don't get drawn into any cat and mouse type games of reconciliation/repentance. If she males a sincere plea at any point, give her once chance. Make it clear that is one chance and what you expect to happen in order for it to work.

I NC'd with aunty about 18 months after DM died. She had decided to try to play the same games with me as she did with my mum. I mention this as, if she already has children and you are about to try, sibling rivalry can really burst into flames once another generation is involved, it can cascade down to nastiness about your children. IVF frankly is emotional and physical strain enough without that kind of rubbish.

Nc'ing was a process of gradually extracting myself from her life and then once I was strong enough after grief counselling etc, making a clear and definitive break. I heard from her once when she notified me of a bereavement in the wider family about a year later. She said some very vindictive things on the phone which were designed to hurt me and create a fight, hopefully one that would spill over into a confrontation at the funeral. I didn't rise to it, expressed my regrets politely and calmly on the phone sent flowers to the funeral, explained to others that I could trust myself to behave with dignity at that ceremony, wasn't sure about aunty, so thought discretion was the better part of valour. Then changed phone number and that's it.

YellowTulips · 05/02/2015 22:50

You can't control how she treats you, but you can control how you respond to it...

A lot of people have issues and problems in their past. It isn't a ticket to treat others like shit.

Quite frankly I'd stop tolerating her behaviour . It doesn't have to be dramatic- just say "I won't let you treat me like this and be so rude and disrespectful. We can talk again when you stop being an asshole."

AHatAHatMyKingdomForAHat · 05/02/2015 23:23

You don't have to let people mistreat you just because you share DNA.

springydaffs · 05/02/2015 23:32

Wow, Rosy, it really helped me to read your story. It is so similar to the (now ex) relationship with my sister.

OP, I miss her dogs and that's about it. It was very painful letting go of her kids but I got over it eventually. I'm afraid I didn't have the strength or courage to confront her unemotionally, or with presence of mind. She did something so heinous I cut her off for good. It is an immense relief.

I do feel for you OP. It is so hard to see things clearly - though tulips has a good strategy which cuts through the crap! I think I would've been able to do that tbh but it's too late now. Our stories are so similar but ditch the guilt: she's a grown up now, put your childhood behind you, it's a level playing field now.

Sounds like she's in an abusive relationship - ditto my sister! - BUT THATS NOT YOUR FAULT. It's for her to face and sort out, nothing to do with you. You can't be picking up the tab ad infinitum for her pain and frustration. As difficult as it is, she has to stand on her own two feet and stop using you to dump every irritation, real or imagined. You may have contributed to that dynamic in the past but that's over now.

springydaffs · 05/02/2015 23:38

Can't link but have a look at FOG in toxic relationships - Fear Obligation Guilt. It's how they keep you locked in.

springydaffs · 05/02/2015 23:43

Sorry third post! Her kids are grown now and it's not so bad ( I didn't want to sound like a hard bitch missing her dogs more than her kids...)

RosyAuroch · 06/02/2015 02:22

Glad it helped springydaffs

DeckSwabber · 06/02/2015 07:55

Sorry to go against the grain but it sounds as if both of you lack insight into the relationship.

My brother thinks he's the 'sorted' one and says how much he cares for me and how he worries about me and wants to help, but his actual behaviour belies this truth. There are very, very good reasons why I feel stressed in his company and don't want him around me. He also brings up my mental health vulnerabilities as part of his 'caring' persona, while being very happy to exploit it by applying more stress and telling anyone who wants to listen how unstable I am.

In our case there was some 'stuff' in our childhood which affected us very differently, meaning that we effectively had very different experiences. In 'his' version we had a happy childhood and I'm the crazy one for not having had a marvelous time like he did.

If you want to fix things you are going to have to try to understand why she gets upset with you to the extent that she hurls cakes at the wall and wants you to leave her house. What happens leading up to these outbursts which you are not picking up on?

I appreciate that I'm projecting but then again so are many others on these boards.

springydaffs · 07/02/2015 00:45

You have a good point, deck, but re-reading the OP I don't think OP is experiencing the same thing you are.

I appreciate these things aren't always b&w. But sometimes abuse IS b&w. It looks too much like OP's sister is bullying OP.

I ran endlessly through the 'am I patronising my sister?' stuff - and, yes, I may have been patronising her on some level in an attempt to try to understand why she relentlessly and openly, outrageously, bullied me at every opportunity. But the bottom line is she is an adult - and has been for some time - and the appalling behaviour just isn't on, regardless what is behind it. Wrong target, apart from anything else.

springydaffs · 07/02/2015 00:56

ie my sister is perfectly at liberty to do some digging to find out what may be going on with her. As I have - I put my money where my mouth is and did the (painful) work. As she is free to do. No, the reason she doesn't do it is because she has (or had) a far too convenient outlet for her rage and dissatisfaction, which ameliorated her pain. I did the work because I was carrying both our pain: my pain was quite enough to be going on with, carrying hers as well was intolerable. So I stopped carrying it for her. Which means I stopped allowing her to beat me up when she felt like it.

DeckSwabber · 07/02/2015 08:56

The point I'm trying to make is that there are always two sides, and there isn't necessarily a toxic person but a toxic relationship.

It isn't necessarily one persons fault over the other, or indeed anyone's 'fault'.

springydaffs · 07/02/2015 11:11

Yes, but within any relationship we all have the opportunity to take responsibility for our behaviour.

eg I went into therapy to address my pain: I took responsibility for my pain, my behaviour (eg why did I let her do that to me, etc).

yy I could demonise her but there are too many variables: all I know is what I am and am not prepared to accept in my life, regardless where it comes from or why. If she wants to take some responsibility for her behaviour then there is a potential forum for change - if, however, she wants to go on using me as a punch bag for her rage and disatisfaction then there is no forum for change.

DeckSwabber · 07/02/2015 11:31

I couldn't agree more, Springy, which is why I limit contact with my brother. I wish with all my heart he would just leave me alone but I get told I need counselling and he has even tried to get me to go to counselling with him so that he can 'help' me. This is because he wants me to go through the pain of resolving a problem which is ultimately HIS problem, so that he doesn't have to.

Ultimately the root of the problem is probably in childhood, in the OPs case probably connected to having alcoholic parents. I would imagine that they both need to address this if they are to move on.

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