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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Husband buries his head during important conversations....

24 replies

Candy151 · 01/02/2015 21:29

Ladies
Sorry if this post drags on .....

Has anyone experienced their DH crawling into his 'man cave' when trying to discuss anything important? We've been together 11 years and married for 6months. He's a very laid back guy who runs his own family company (his father now retired) so I appriciate he gets tired. Problem is he's always tired when I want to talk about anything important. I too have a stressful office job heading up a team.

I've recently spoke about trying for a baby and tatties discussing our Wills and both times he covers his ears and states he's tired and doesn't want to
Have these conversations. States he's not ready
For a family and doesn't want his 50% share of his company left to his wife. Rather it should go to 'his' family. Beating in mind my entire death in service circa £200K is nominated to him entirely.

My father passed almost two years ago very suddenly and again rather than comforting me he felt awkward.

Urgh feeling drained and sad.

OP posts:
CogitoErgoSometimes · 01/02/2015 22:56

I think you should stop accepting the excuses. 'Tired' might wash at the end of a busy working week but not otherwise. What's really happening, I suspect, is that he's simply not interested in your opinion and is stonewalling you rather than take your feelings seriously.

So please stand up for yourself assertively. Forcibly if necessary. Otherwise you'll have no say, no life and no respect

ImperialBlether · 01/02/2015 22:57

Do you have family and/or close friends, OP? I'd be changing who my money was going to, in your case.

MyRightFoot · 01/02/2015 23:07

as you're married his half share would automatically go to you unless his will dictates otherwise. i must ask does he understand what marriage means and why did he choose to get married?

Candy151 · 02/02/2015 06:38

Yes I do - my mother and sister whom I'm close to.

He wants his share going to his father although strangely enough I suspect his father would presume it would go to me!

Regards family he just says he'll be ready when he's ready and not to talk about it. We are still really young, he's 32 I'm 27 but we have a great family home, financially secure, married and really happy. Other thsn this issue of not talking to me!!

Do I accept he's super laid back regards family and wait? I feel hurt about the business issue.

OP posts:
EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 02/02/2015 06:46

11 years and he's not committed to you yet? He wants to exclude you financially (he can't legally), and he won't talk to you about children? I'm sorry but he's not with you on the same page.

Nolim · 02/02/2015 06:50

Have you tried to give him notice about the conversation? Like can we set up some time over the weekend to discuss x?

Jackw · 02/02/2015 07:11

Yes, I think that's what you should do. Don't let him wriggle out of the conversation. You can acknowledge that he's too tired now and then arrange a time when you will have the conversation. Unfortunately, I think that's the least of your problems. He doesn't want to discuss these two issues because he doesn't want children and he doesn't want you to have his business. This is horrible for you to find out only 6 months into the marriage but I'm afraid you are going to have to do some serious thinking about whether either of these are deal-breakers for you.

LaurieFairyCake · 02/02/2015 07:16

He's not young at 32 to have a family.

Nextwednesday · 02/02/2015 07:19

Didn't he know when he married that his wife would be legally entitled to half of his assets? I think his attitude stinks. That's awful. You're his family now.

GirlDownUnder · 02/02/2015 07:20

Did he actively want to get married? Or did you drift into it / follow other peoples expectations?

What was he like pre-marriage? How did you discuss and agree the bug things then eg buying a house, getting married?

GirlDownUnder · 02/02/2015 07:21

*big

CogitoErgoSometimes · 02/02/2015 08:16

He's not super laid back, he's dismissing you as unimportant. Does this attitude show itself in other aspects of your life and relationship? Finances, for example. Do you know the full ins and outs of your family money situation? Are you party to business decisions? Free access to all bank accounts?

Sickoffrozen · 02/02/2015 09:02

It isn't uncommon for family business to be passed back to family but what most shareholders do is purchase life assurance called business/shareholder protection that means that the family would get the proceeds from the life policy and then have to buy the shares from you.

Alternatively he could just take a policy out for a similar amount, pass the business share back to the family and the life cover goes to you.

Candy151 · 02/02/2015 10:00

I control all of out finances. I work in the finance industry and am careful with our savings. Everything is split accross various isas and savings plans pretty much 50/50. The only thing I don't have access to is his business accounts which I always respected. Although now we are married I feel we need to have provisions just in case. His father I could almost guarantee would expect DH share to be left to me and our future children.

Regards children he just says he'll wait until he's ready. Also that I should pressurise him and that I'm difficult as I don't accept what he wants. Maybe I am but I always wait for him at every stage in our relationship. He thinks we are too young and it's a huge commitment.

He also can't say the word love - claims it doesn't mean anything of he says it a lot. I think I hear it three times a year tops if I force it out of him!!

OP posts:
CogitoErgoSometimes · 02/02/2015 10:12

I'm glad you are in control of the household finances. However, I think you absolutely should have access to his business accounts because it's a family business and you are an equal part of that family now.

The children issue is a thorny one. Neither of you are right or wrong in the respect that you can't force someone to have or not have children against their will. What is wrong, however, is his refusal to discuss what 'ready' means.... Financially ready? Emotionally ready? Some other criteria?

What does bother me is that you say you 'wait for him at every stage' and that he accuses you of 'pressurising' if there is a difference of opinion. That is not an equal partnership. It's you walking three paces behind.

As for being too young, it's significant you got together when you were 17 and 22. Relationships can sometimes get stuck at the stage when people meet. In a way, I think he still sees you as the easily-impressed teenager that is expected to do as you're told, deferring all the big decisions to him and 'waiting' for him all the time. and himself as the 22 year-old he used to be. He doesn't see you as a capable adult woman with a career in the finance industry etc.

Some people don't say 'I love you' easily but can still make you feel loved. I don't think you feel especially loved....

pinkyredrose · 02/02/2015 10:25

OP did he want to get married or did he just drift into it? Did he propose or did you? It sounds like he's not fully committed to the idea of marriage.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 02/02/2015 10:26

He's not passive or necessarily irresponsible, he's stonewalling. A passive man would agree to everything and never express an opinion. An irresponsible man would be racking up big debts on the business account and hiding the results. A man who stonewalls has his own agenda but isn't letting on what it is.

Somethingtodo · 02/02/2015 11:23

OP -- the thread I posted has loads missing - have reported however - this is a write-up of Passive Aggressive men and the dynamic created in a relationship...might right true - might not...

"One of the hardest patterns of behavior for all of us to deal with is passive aggressive behavior. Passive aggressive behavior happens when the person avoids responsibility and attempts to control others to keep them away through his passivity and withdrawal. It is a dynamic born of fear of being controlled, fear of confrontation, hidden anger and an inability to deal straight with people.

Passive aggressive behavior is complex and takes many forms. We all have passive behavior that comes up when we don't want to deal with conflict directly or do a task. We all hedge, fudge and remain noncommittal on issues some of the time. That's normal. It's only when repeated passivity creates severe issues for others setting up continual tension and anger in the household that it becomes a serious problem that should be addressed.

Agreement, Resistance and Hidden Hostility as Major Characteristics
The man with passive aggressive behavior needs someone to be the object of his hidden hostility. He needs an adversary whose expectations and demands he can resist as he plays out the dance he learned from his parents. He chooses a woman who will agree to be on the receiving end of his disowned anger. He resists her in small ways setting up a pattern of frustration so that she gets to express the anger that he cannot.
The biggest irritant in being with a passive aggressive man is that he doesn't follow through on his agreements and promises. He dodges responsibility while insisting he's pulling his weight. He procrastinates, takes on big projects but doesn't finish them then feels put upon or hostile if someone else tries to finish it. He often ignores reality as to his irresponsibility and withdrawal. He denies evidence, distorts minimalizes or lies to make his version of reality seem logical.

He uses vague language to stonewall the partner. Inconsistency and ambiguity are his tools of choice. He often gives double messages and expects his partner to read his mind and meet his needs saying ‘She should have known how it is.' He withholds information and has a hidden agenda. He can't take criticism and makes excuses to get himself off the hook. He sulks and uses silence when confronted about his inability to live up to his promises, obligations or responsibilities. When he doesn't follow through, he puts the blame on his partner so he doesn't have to take it and accuses her of having the problem.

The man with this type of pattern shows little consideration of the time, feelings, standards or needs of others. He obstructs and block progress to others getting what they want and then ignores or minimalizes their dissatisfactions and anger. He is silent when confronted as he has never learned to compromise. He may be a workaholic, a womanizer, hooked on TV, caught in addictions or self-involved hobbies.

He feels others demand too much of him so resists in overt and subtle ways and feels deprived if must give in to others. The man who copes with conflict by not being there has strong conflict over dependency. He desperately wants attention but fears being swallowed up by the partner. He can't be alone and live without a woman in his life, but can't be with partner emotionally. He's caught in a Catch 22--wanting affection but avoiding it because he fears it as his destruction. He resents feeling dependent on the woman so must keep her off guard. He makes his partner feel like a nothing through his neglect or irritability but he keeps her around because he needs her. His script is ‘Be here for me, but don't come too close and don't burden me with your needs or expectations.'

He has such strong fears of intimacy deep in his unconscious mind so he must set barriers up to prevent a deep emotional connection. He is clever at derailing intimacy when it comes up by tuning out his partner and changing the subject. He must withhold part of himself to feel safe and may withdraw sexually. Closeness and intimacy during sex may make him feel vulnerable and panicked bringing forth his deepest fears of dependency upon a woman. The passive aggressive man lives an internal loneliness; he wants to be with the woman but stays confused whether she is the right partner for him or not. He is scared and insecure causing him to seek contact with a partner but scared and insecure to fully commit.

Due to the wounding from childhood, he is unable to trust that he is safe within the relationship. He fears revealing himself and can't share feelings. His refusal to express feelings keeps him from experiencing his sense of insecurity and vulnerability. He often denies feelings like love that might trap him into true connection with another human being. He feels rejected and hurt when things don't go his way but can't distinguish between feeling rejected and being rejected. He pushes people away first so he won't be rejected. He is often irritable and uses low-level hostility to create distance at home. The relationship becomes based on keeping the partner at bay. He often sets up experiences to get others to reject or deprive him. He is noncommittal and retreats, feeling put upon and burdened by partner's requests for more closeness.

He becomes a cave dweller to feel safe.

The man with passive aggressive actions is a master in getting his partner to doubt herself and feel guilty for questioning or confronting him. He encourages her to fall for his apologies, accept his excuses and focus on his charm rather than deal with the issue directly. He blames her for creating the problem and keeps her focused on her anger rather than his own ineptitude. When backed into a corner, he may explode and switch to aggressive aggressive behavior then switch back to passivity. He keeps his partner held hostage by the hope that he will change. He may appease her and clean up his act after a blow up for several weeks, then it's back to business as usual.

Passive aggressive behavior does not happen in a vacuum; it requires a partner to bounce things off of. This problems exists between people--one who resists and one who get frustrated. The need for a woman to choose and remain with a passive aggressive partner is a dynamic that is set up in her childhood. The little girl learns this pattern in childhood observing her parents. One parent withdraws and frustrates the spouse who becomes angry. The little girl learns to take care of others and get depressed when they don't appreciate it. Desperately she wants the parents to change but cannot express her deep frustration.

When she grows up, the woman unconsciously chooses men who will play out the familiar patterns of her childhood of retreat and attack. She falls for the man's charm, his neediness or sense of poise and togetherness and ignores his real lack of connection with others.

If the man's hostility and withdrawal is left unchallenged, the woman's doubt in herself grows. His failures become her failures. The harder she works on the relationship, the cleverer he is in eluding her. Her life is in continual uproar as she mulls over the inconsistencies in daily events. He feels threatened and insecure and withdraws, she gets angry. She gets angry, he withdraws and the unresolved conflict boomerangs between then.

Relationships, which do not allow straight talk, frankness and appropriate expression of anger become destructive.

The woman living with a passive aggressive man goes back and forth between three rolesthe Rescuer, the Victim or the Manager. Living with the passive aggressive man pushes the woman into frustration and anger as a major dynamic in day-to-day conflict. When she cannot get her needs met, she becomes the Blamer, the Bitch, and the Rager, which then makes the man feel very insecure in the relationship. She is caught in her role as a martyr-victim, codependent rescuer or controlling manager as she does not know how to do anything different. She rides the emotional roller coaster as she always wants more from her manmore commitment, more cooperation and more doing what he says he will do. Her self-esteem erodes as her frustration and anger turn to rage as she feels guilty about the intensity and destructiveness of her aggression. She may repeat choosing passive aggressive men in several relationships until she learns how her own neediness sets her up for relationship failure.

There are many childhood set ups for his passive aggressive behaviour but most often there is a domineering mother and a father who is ineffectual.

Or there may be a passive mother who gets out of responsibility by her helplessness. There are power struggles in the marriage with one parent backing off and withdrawing. The boy feels trapped between choosing loyalties at home. He is afraid to compete with his father who is absent either physically or emotionally or perceived as being inadequate. In the typical mother dominant-father passive relationship, the boy learns that the job of being a man in relationship is to escape the woman's needs and subsequent demands.

Isetan · 02/02/2015 11:42

Clue me in, why do you think he would be different now?

I get it, I've been there and the little things that Ex did that confused me but I ignored because 'they were only little things', didn't miraculously disappear when DD was born. Instead, the pattern of behaviour continued but I was no longer the only recipient. I never really thought his behaviour was my fault but I somehow thought I could fix it but watching this pattern play out with DD, that I couldn't dismiss as 'a little thing'.

This is who he is and the excuses he's made and that you've accepted, can't change that. You're asking the wrong questions, the only answer you need is 'Why the hell do I let him do this?'. The good news, only you can answer it.

Twinklestein · 02/02/2015 11:45

He's not fully invested in this relationship is he? He seems to have got married without actually taking on board what that means. If he doesn't want 50% of the company to be left to his wife then he doesn't really see you as his wife, as his family. No doubt he'd be happy to be the beneficiary of your 200 grand though.

He states what he wants and you're suppose to capitulate to his will. He controls the discourse. Stonewalling is absolutely right, it's a very good control tool, simply to refuse to discuss anything that doesn't suit him.

This is not an equal relationship, this man sees you as a subordinate who submits to his will. He rules the roost, sets the pace of the relationship. It is very difficult to get someone to hear you who fundamentally does not believe that you have a voice.

I would be very concerned about the lack of respect and lack of consideration he shows you. How would that pan out if you had kids, assuming he'd allow it of course? I would also be concerned that his attitude to money has the potential cross over into financial abuse. If you're not allowed access or at least full information about his business, you've only got his word to go on with regard to earnings etc, and he seems to resent sharing money with you.

I think you need to get your life back under control. Stop waiting on him and state what you want in the relationship with regards to finances, children, respect for your pov etc. If he can't step up, you need to consider whether this so-called partnership is actually working for you, and you need to make that clear to him.

Somethingtodo · 02/02/2015 12:12

OP - thread was missing many posts earlier - reported to MN - all now back to normal - might find something useful from other MNers or you might not.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2275725-Anyone-else-end-up-as-an-angry-banshee-after-living-with-Mr-Nice-passive-irresponsible

My STBXH made me "wait" at long time for marriage (10 years) and children (14 years) - I know that this standard resistant behavior to keep him in control and you on your toes and jumping thru hoops.

Butterpuff · 02/02/2015 13:04

OP I am on the other side business wise. Most of my assets come from my family business.

I will leave others to comment on the baby thing, but just say my DH struggled to talk about it, not because he wasn't invested in us but because it just scared the life out of him to be taking on so much responsibility, he takes it very seriously. But he did come around after he saw how much talking about it meant to me and we are due our first child in three weeks.

On the finance side he his obviously invested as you share finances and you are in charge of them.

I am not sure how to explain the tie you have with a family business and why you DH might prefer than his stake in it returns to his father rather than go to you. But I do understand it. My DH and I share everything, but when we come to write wills my shares in my family business will be going to our children and not to my DH. If we did not have children then he would get some financial compensation but the shares would go back to my brother and parents who are the other shareholders in the business. Myself, my parents and my brother form the board of directors and we all work together in the business. We have all contributed to its success, I don't think I could give my shares to DH as he has not made the same contribution and I don't think he would expect it. To me it feels like my decision is all about preserving the business and doing what is best for the people in it rather than cutting DH out. He understands entirely.

Oh and I am the one who rarely if ever tells DH I love him, I do and he knows it. I'm just not one for saying it and I do think it devalues the meaning if said too often. I'm an actions person rather than a words one, maybe your DH is too.

Candy151 · 02/02/2015 21:31

I can't thank you enough for your supportive messages.

I spoke to DH tonight. Albeit it turned it's a argument again as he claims he 'doesn't see what use' the business would be to me, nevertheless has agreed to amend his will if it makes me happy. Spoke to my mother too who was so shocked with his behaviour. Didn't touch on the children issue yet - will Dave that later! We are in the process of building a new house and staying with my mum do until that stress is out of the say he won't come near me without protection haha!

I guess he'll never be the I love you type but I know he means well. I just don't think he understands sometimes.

OP posts:
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