How do you learn self discipline?

[Thistledew]

I'm sorry if this is not the right section, but don't know where else to ask this.

How do you teach yourself self-discipline? I would love to hear from people who used to be undisciplined and have managed to turn things around, as I have realised that I need to make some fundamental changes.

My lack of discipline arrises mostly in relation to my work, but also in terms of general personal admin/ housework etc.

I work self-employed in a job that I love but which is mentally very demanding. I have enough discipline to make sure that I never miss a deadline for my clients, and my lack of discipline doesn't impinge on anyone but myself. I also could not do my exact job in an employed role, and do really value being self-employed. I have done similar roles in an employed position, and became very bored and resentful after a short while.

My problem is that whilst my lack of discipline doesn't affect my clients, it does affect me. I find it very hard to make myself sit down and get on with my work until the deadline is absolutely looming, when suddenly my focus will appear and I can sit and work solidly for hours until the work is done. What this means is that I will faff around wasting time on the internet during normal working hours, and then end up having to work late in the evening or at night to get the work done. Or I will have a really unproductive day one day, and then need to work frantically the next. Or I will put off doing boring admin stuff like billing the work I have done, and then wonder why I have no money coming in!

I would also like to be a bit more disciplined regarding household stuff. I am messy, and would like to be a bit more sorted in terms of dedicating time to cleaning and tidying.

I am not without discipline in all areas of my life, in that I do triathlon (for fun), and am actually pretty disciplined about keeping up with my training program for that. In some ways, I think this is actually a diverted form of laziness, as when I am swimming, cycling or running, I don't have to think and I don't have to do, so actually, it becomes another way of avoiding being productive.

Can anyone help? Late nights, and the stress of making everything last minute is not doing me any good, I know. I also regularly feel fed up with myself for not being more productive and for wasting time, and would like to feel happier with myself.

knight, can anyone join the MN Social group? It sounds helpful (I'm another one working from home)...

And bigfish thanks, I loved those links.

I find the birdsongFM or one of the natural sounds apps work well for me, if you are one of those who can't bear silence. Having music on is an incentive to piss about on iTunes, but I can put an app on and not mess with it.

OP, "I could have written your post" is such a cliché on here but I really could have. And to me, the depressing thing is that Iknow pretty much all the techniques that are being described here, and exactly what I need to do to stop procrastinating and get organised ... but I still don't bloody DO it!!!!

'Just do it'. But HOW??

OP, "I could have written your post" is such a cliché on here but I really could have. And to me, the depressing thing is that Iknow pretty much all the techniques that are being described here, and exactly what I need to do to stop procrastinating and get organised ... but I still don't bloody DO it!!!!

'Just do it'. But HOW??

I'll join too because this is my absolute biggest struggle to the point that I'm starting to think I might actually have ADD.

I'll go back and read but I wanted to mark my place before I got distracted and forgot

I remember when I was about 14 at boarding school the headmistress taking me into her office to give me a lecture on my lack of self discipline and telling me I would never amount to anything if I didn't learn to be tidy and organised. Basically I was a misfit in a school run by nuns devoted to godliness and tidiness. One week I got 22 detentions for the number of items in the wrong place! But her idea of a punishment was to make me go cross country running which I adored. And she was wrong as I have prospered and become a highly paid healthcare professional with a messy house and too much clutter

It is all about values and priorities I think. You are trying to change your essential nature into something you feel is more valued by society but you don't really believe it yourself. This is why it won't stick.

I would say relax. You are who you are and people who love you don't want you to change. If your behaviour is inconsiderate to others or causing health hazards then you might want to modify it but otherwise forgive yourself and get on with what is important to you!

I really sympathise with this. I had major procrastination problems at uni, and probably dropped a degree class because of it. I also had trouble getting job applications done in time. For me, the only solution was to drop out for a while,and have a long think about what was really going on emotionally, because I was getting depressed and anxious about achievement and marks and grades and careers. And I found labels like 'laziness' utterly unhelpful - they were just another stick to beat myself up with. Perfectionism and unrealistic goals (many of these absorbed from school, magazines, parental expectations growing up) were more relevant than perceived moral failings.

I get the feeling you're stressed and hooked on adrenalin, like I was in my final year at uni. When you're dependent on adrenalin, it's important to realise it isn't actually the kick you're after (which is pretty unpleasant) but the means to get the essentials done. Do you have any idea how long things take you when you're not frantically doing the last-minute rush? Or do you only have two speeds at the moment: sprint and stop? What can you really achieve in a day that doesn't leave you knackered and fed-up? You'll probably find when you've completed a job that you're really, really tired and you need to take account of that. You may also need to sort out your feelings about authority, discipline and being in control - I wonder if there were control issues growing up?

Sorry for the essay but hopefully some food for thought here...

Whats the difference between self discipline and willpower? Is there a difference?

I ask because I would Im self disciplined and organised etc but when it comes to doing things like putting on body lotion every day, or doing something like 'Dry January', or not eating too much - I just can't get it together.

Its been on my mind for a while to the extent Ive told my counsellor I want to start working in it with her next month.

How does a person develop will power?

Alibalibumblebee - I think Willpower and discipline are the same thing.

I read once that everybody has a limited amount of this stuff, but it's like a muscle in that the more you exercise it the more of it you have. It does however get tired. This is why you can't do too much, and why you have to be consistent (build habits) so that you are used to it.

I would suggest that you have built good habits in certain area's, but not in others. Putting on body lotion every day ought to be easy, but the apparent lack of importance for each application can trip you up.

Make sure you do not have too much change going on in your life right now, if you do then wait a few weeks. Then you need a trigger, something that reminds you to do the action. Then you need to ensure that you do the action when the trigger occurs no matter what, for long enough for it to become a habit (people say anything from 30-66 days). After that it should happen naturally without using any will power.

I achieved this with moisturising, as a bloke I was never brought up to moisturise but I recognised the proven benefits and decided to start but never did it consistently. Then I built a habit around my morning bathroom routine. Teeth -> Shower -> Moisturise -> Dress. I also built a ritual (I get the container out of the draw and put it by the shower before I get in). I made sure that I did all this, in this order for a while (and it's not that hard each time is it) and now it's just part of getting up. if I break the routine then I often miss moisturising, but the next day I'm back to my routine and do it without thinking.

As aHat said earlier in the thread "Here's the key: remind yourself that it is not really about the shoes, it is really about making yourself do it now when a part of you doesn't want to." Since aHat wrote that I've been thinking of my inner teenager every time I put something off. Thank you for that aHat.

Procrastination is the thief of time.

Perfectionism is his mate.

Both live here.

Little bastards.

You could be describing me a few years ago, before I was diagnosed with ADHD - in my mid 40's!

No amount of timetables, reminders, diaries, or beating myself up over my lack of self discipline and basic organisational skills helped.

Have a read at these links, and if you think you could have ADHD, please see your GP. Taking medication for this totally changed my life.

www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1638.html
psychcentral.com/addquiz.htm

This was the first thought that occurred to me too, reading your OP. This could have been me. I was diagnosed and treated for ADHD in the autumn and my life has been revolutionised. I'd encourage you to look into it, if only to rule it out. Good luck.

OK I'm back :)

On that ADHD quiz I get 36 on general - 34+ being the highest category indicative of symptoms of adult ADHD. 23 on inattentive (high) and 13 on hyperactivity/impulsivity (moderate but only just into it). I really must go and ask someone about it. motherofstudents Please tell me more about this treatment? Is it medication or therapy?

I like the Wait But Why article about procrastination and it describes me - dark playground, panic monster, all of it (except I feel like I am the monkey rather than the monkey being separate to me - perhaps that's the ADHD part...)

The second article is very compelling and motivating in the idea, and it does help for one off projects, but for everyday things like showering regularly, always brushing my teeth, housework, starting dinner by a reasonable time, it doesn't work at all because it's not designed for those types of things, and those are what I procrastinate over.

So this is what works for me currently.

• Finding something not-me that I'm accountable to, or logic I can't argue with. I can't do the "I'll have three chocolates when I'm done as a reward!" thing because my brain just goes "But... I can have as much chocolate as I want right now. There's nothing stopping me." So for example I used to work out that if I got up by a certain time on a weekday, I'd have time to both make and drink a hot drink before having to leave the house. That then meant I wasn't in a rush as I had time to do other things while the drink cooled. If the "reward" makes sense, like saying, if I complete this thing which is going to make me more money, I'll buy X with the money, that helps.

I did get DH to remind me of stuff but he got fed up of it (I think he thought after he'd reminded me enough times I'd remember it by myself but I don't). It takes at least three or four times of him informing me that something's an issue (e.g. I used to always put used pans in the sink and he told me at least 3 times "Please don't because the scummy water makes the bottoms dirty and they have to be washed twice" and each time I felt surprised and said "Oh ok, sorry, no problem, I'll put them here instead". The third or fourth time I feel attacked and wounded because he is asking less patiently but I literally don't remember being asked before.) Often I'll still do the old habit without really registering it and then have to un-do it when I realise.

• Breaking stuff up into tasks. Does help. Not making massive plans, I spend more time on the plan than the doing, but breaking into chunks. I have a whiteboard with my 5 current problems/projects/ongoing things and the next step (or three) on there and they get ticked off or updated in time.

• Stop saying "I'll do that later". I get into a cycle of remembering I need to do something conveniently at a time I can't do it or really don't want to do it, and forgetting about it for the entire period of time I could do it. So I can't do stuff "now". But instead of thinking or saying "I'll do that later" I now immediately plan a time that I will do it. It doesn't mean it gets done at that time, but if I consciously think of the next suitable time or opportunity to do it, it gets pencilled in or I keep it in mind much more. When that time is coming up I can still make an excuse or postpone it, but I have to postpone it to a specific time. Usually it's my thought pattern of "I'll do that later" which gets in the way so actually deciding "I'll do it on Tuesday morning" means I do tend to do it, or at least start/do one step towards it, on Tuesday morning. This drives DH mad if it's something which involves him because he's definitely a "do it now" kind of person. If I can do one step and put the rest off to a specific time, that's still it getting done more quickly than if I put the whole thing off altogether, I feel it's manageable, and I get a little boost of "yay" from having completed a part of it.

• Yes definitely to managing my energy. For me this looks like: Using an app called sleepytime to work out when I'm supposed to be going to bed. Setting an alarm 20 minutes before this time to let me finish what I'm doing and finish up final tasks such as hanging up the washing I brought up but forgot to hang, making DS' packed lunch for the morning, putting my folder in my bag for work. Going to bed at this time. Knowing what time I'm aiming to get to bed stops me from doing "One more thing..." on the internet until 3am. Also, regular exercise. Just 20 minutes twice a week. I'm the most exercise-averse person ever but it surprised me how much it does make a difference. Again, plan specific days and if you miss a day don't just miss it, but plan when you will next do it instead.

• Similar to this - have an idea (by working backwards) when you're supposed to start certain unmovable tasks. Otherwise I procrastinate and then suddenly think "Shiiiit I was meant to have already done X by now and I haven't started it". Don't think about deadlines for completion, but deadlines for starting. If it's going to take you a while to work that out, schedule planning: Decide when you'll have time and decide to do it then.

Oh I killed the thread :(

This is so weird ... I was going to start a thread just like this and was looking for the self-employed section!

This has been on here all weekend and I never even clicked on it until now (and then only because I'm skiving as per) - didn't think for a minute it would be about working from home etc. I could have written it - and some of the replies, honest to God - word for word. In fact I was planning to and the only thing that stopped me from starting a thread of my own was where to post it.

I'm not very woo, but bloody hell!

Anyways, I'm exactly the same ... self employed, got shitloads of work to do and I faff and fanny about and leave everything until it's urgent and I don't have any choice. End up working half the night to get it done.

What brought this up was on Friday a mate of mine phoned who is also self-employed. We were nattering away and she said to me 'my trouble is I always faff about. I look at the clock and its 3pm and I've done bugger all and I have to frantically start doing things'. I was so shocked because I just never saw her as being like that, like me basically. I always seem to push it to the wire, almost on purpose sometimes.

Gong to do some work now (I swear, I bloody have to otherwise the bailiffs will be knocking!) but I'm going to come back later and read this thread properly.

Make two columns

1. Bad habits

I procrastinate
I spend too much time on internet
etc, etc ( you will know what your bad habits are )

1. Good Habits

I will not procrastinate
I will only spend 15 mins on internet
etc,etc

A page for things to do.

Then a page for short term goals.

A page for long term goals.

Start by committing to it for 30 days.

Soon you will find you are less firefighting with your time and business, you will actually be able to enjoy your leisure time and you will probably make more money in the process.

As for doing jobs you hate ( sorting out new insurance/ fuel supply deals etc ) if I told you to go sit in a chair for 30 mins and I'd give you a couple of hundred quid - you'd do it wouldn't you. Apply this logic to your work.

I procrastinated like hell in the last six months of last year with my business, had to lie when things hadn't arrived on time, this reflected in my sales figures and I'd wake up in the middle of the night in a panic when I suddenly remembered something.

At the beginning of this year, I tidied up my office, cleared up a backlog of orders and started working when I was meant to instead of arsing about.

Already I'm reaping the rewards.

GET OFF YOUR ARSE

You make it sound so simple, davejudgement

I feel as though I need some sort of scare to make me get off my arse. And it shouldn't be like that. It worked once, a long time ago when my marks were slipping at university and I was in danger of ending up with a degree class one lower than the one I was aiming for. The reason was because I was so preoccupied with food - I was never quite anorexic or bulimic but my eating was very disordered and when I was supposed to be doing uni homework, my mind would wander and I'd head down three flights of stairs and go to the local shops for a family bag of Minstrels or a tub of Haagen Daz, bring them back, stuff my face with them, cram late at night with my homework and not do a good job.

When I was about to start my final year I put myself on a regime that I was literally terrified to deviate from - I was sure that if I did, my eating would totally go to shit, I'd probably end up bulimic and flunk my degree.

All it was was making myself eat three times a day; no more, no less. So when tea was over at 7pm or whenever, I knew there would be no more food till breakfast and it totally freed up my mind - there was no point even thinking about that bag of Minstrels at 9pm because I just didn't do that any more.

Sorry for going off at a tangent, I know it's not really the business in hand, but I really would love something similar to apply to my life now and terrify me into a) being organised b) making more money, which I know I'm capable of but just don't do. Still following the thread in the hope someone can give me some magical insight

Its like breaking any bad habit, you have to want to do it, for yourself.

I can get so easily distracted, but deep down I'm the only loser if I don't get things done. Last year I was sailing really close to the wind with a financial crisis due to my lack of discipline - so I only had myself to blame, which made me feel worse, its like self destruction.

once you take one small step then another it will become easier, you will see improvements in your life which will snowball.

Its like saving up for something rather than slapping it on a credit card so you can have it NOW - long term, the interest on that credit card will compound and fuck you up and the thing you thought you wanted in the first place will be of little value to you.

*You have to want to do it, for yourself.

... deep down I'm the only loser if I don't get things done.*

I know, I know. I can't seem to grow the fuck up.

Ah yes, in my case it's a double edge sword.... Many years ago I was told that I wasn't good enough/wouldn't amount to much and it has imbued me with the 'you were right/I'll show you' Jekyll & Hyde mentality to get things done.

Well I'm getting older now and don't wish to spend the rest of my life in a chaotic state, firefighting and living day to day hoping my luck won't run out.

When it comes to friends, I am less inclined to sit about with other people whose lives are chaos and cultivate relationships with like minded, get the job done types - they don't drag you down with them.

For me, self-discipline and will power vary with the activity involved and my other moods.

I suspect it's the same for many of us. Have you heard about Rat Park? It's a controversial experiment to explore the nature of addiction. Two groups of rats were given drug-laced water. One bunch of rats were put in a horrible environment where there wasn't much stimulus. They mostly became addicts. The other were put in Rat Park, which had loads of opportunities for creative play. They left the drugs alone and drank water preferentially.

I realise this is an extreme example, but I think it is the same with all sorts of activities that we do that cause us harm. When we are bored or discontented with something, we seek out other stimulants - food, internet distractions, cigarettes, booze, etc. (Sometimes we don't know that we're discontented, and it's not until we sit down and think 'Why am I doing this?' that it comes up).

For instance, I am mostly pretty self-disciplined when it comes to research and work, because I enjoy it. I'm currently writing a book at home during the day, and I could spend most of my time on the internet, but I don't because ultimately I get to the end of the day and feel terrible about myself. (Today is an exception - I'm ill with a bad cold!)

But I have no will power at the moment when it comes to food. None! This is because I'm chronically ill and food is one of the last things I have left that I enjoy.

But neither of these things is a constant. When I worked in a horrible job, I would do anything to avoid doing the work that I hated and that bored me rigid.

Also, when I am not ill, I am extremely disciplined about food and diet (and a lot thinner than I currently am!) I'm scheduled to have surgery in a couple of weeks, and I'm pretty sure once I can exercise I'll change my habits completely.

I know it goes against all the 'one thing at a time' advice, but I honestly think we need to think holistically about our habits, and to be honest about the compensating activities that we engage in to avoid doing the things that we know we ought to do. I don't think it's about 'growing up' so much as recognising the ways in which we sabotage ourselves and not despairing about our ability to effect meaningful change. (I am horrendous at doing this, but with practice it is getting easier).

I also think that routine really, really matters. It's one thing to introduce a change, it's another to make it into something we do regularly without thinking. Apparently the gap between the two is about 6-8 weeks. So there needs to be a big commitment at the start to changing, before it becomes unreflective. You have to keep focused on what you REALLY want in that time.

Shovetheholly's question 'why am I doing this?' is a good one. Try following it up with 'I choose to...because...' So for example - ' I choose to play a silly game for a few minutes because I was feeling overwhelmed by work' does make it easier for me to discriminate about what I am doing, and only do it for the few minutes! Brings things into consciousness which helps me.

A bit!

motherofstudents Please tell me more about this treatment? Is it medication or therapy?

I've just caught up with this. I have started Concerta each day and it has saved my sanity. I have known since my son's diagnosis that this is what has made my entire life less productive and focussed than it could have been but it took a long time to get round to having myself diagnosed. I am now calmer and focussed and way less stressed. My brain isn't buzzing with endless minor panicky what ifs? I am not needing to go out for a long walk every few hours before my head explodes. I can order and categorise and prioritise and my short term memory is finally working. The point of the medication is not to organise you without any effort on your part but to rebalance wonky brain chemistry to be like everyone else's and put you in a position to be able to work hard at using all the available tips and tools for getting organised.

Thank you for sharing that. It sounds amazing! I know medication doesn't always work the same for everyone so I will try not to get my hopes up, but it's definitely giving me another reason to go and see someone about this.

shovetheholly - how strange that you mention that rat park experiment. I was reading this yesterday and it really chimed with me - it's not like a drug addiction, but I definitely display addictive behaviours towards the computer, immediate going on that, focusing on it blocking everything else out, genuine panic if I can't use it for some reason

After reading the article yesterday I decided to sit down and spend some time with DS before turning the computer on. It helped. I wasn't as stuck into it. I have been today because there's nothing to break the cycle, but it was eye opening. I do tend to feel better in myself when I'm making human connections.