Do I give up on this relationship? (really long, sorry)

[liketalkingtoabrickwall]

I'm on the horns of a dilemma here. Knee jerk LTB reactions not really helpful, but I need to get it all out somewhere to help me clarify my thoughts about my relationship. It's make or break time. Here's my previous thread for some recent background. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a2205092-extremely-long-sorry-how-else-do-I-get-the-message-across-to-him

I love this man. 95% of the time things are brilliant. We have a lot in common, he adores me, good sex, enjoy doing the same things, have a laugh, he treats me as an equal.

5% of the time, when he's been drinking, it's shit. Not every time he drinks, but a lot of the times. Whether it's just coming home from work and finding him practically passed out on sofa then rolling around on his back slurring incoherently at me and wanting kisses and affection (and sex) the second I get in, which is just fucking irritating. Or getting nasty and abusive in an emotional/verbal way, never physically, which makes me upset and mainly angry. At which he now defends himself by saying I'm verbally aggressive. Am I? Maybe, but he loves to start an argument for fun when he's drunk (sometimes) and I just tell him to fuck off away from me rather than get into it.

So...he can't control himself all the time when he's drunk. I'm not sure if he can't control his drinking (alcoholic) or just doesn't want to. I kept a list of incidents in December as when I try to talk to him he denies it's happened more than once or twice. In December there were 2 nights passed out on sofa, and 4 other incidents, 3 with me, and 1 with him winding up someone else and my having to keep him away (other person was stranger in pub who'd already had a fight with someone else).

On New Years eve I told him I'd had enough of all this and don't want to live like this. He said he'd not drink at all in January.

Then we went out NYE to the pub, he got drunk, seemed fine , kissed at midnight. Then just after suddenly turned on me. He just asked me 'Have you got a shag-buddy?'. What? I thought he was joking, or just being weird or what and it took a minute to realise he was serious, and angry, glaring at me and saying 'just answer the question!' I told him no, and told him I was going home, and turned and walked away. He followed me and during the 10 minute walk home I was furious and upset at the accusation, he just defended it. Apparently it was down to me popping into work a few times over Christmas. It's my own business. I checked the post a couple of times, I had an arranged catch up call with one of my staff for an hour or so, and I spent a few hours one day catching up on a few bits in peace. This was during the week between Xmas and New year, when my business was shut, not any actually celebration day. He thought I was meeting a man there for sex. Then he said he didn't really think that, he didn't know why he said it. Then it was because of my 'history' which refers to the fact that I had a fuckbuddy in the past, before I met him. I told him about this when we were talking about previous relationships. I have never cheated on anyone in my life, never flirted inappropriately, never done anything I shouldn't have done.

So...I was so depressed and angry about all this I slept on the sofa for 2 days and could barely look at him, he went out New years day and had a couple of drinks (not drunk, but so much for not drinking in Jan). all this time he was apologetic and begging.

Once I'd calmed down I talked to him. He asked me if I wanted him to pack his bags and go. I said no, I want to be with him, but I was absolutely NOT going to have a life like this. I asked him if he thought he had a problem with alcohol. He said no. I asked him if he thought if he had a problem with his behaviour on alcohol and he thought and said yes. He then repeated that he wouldn't drink in January and that he thought it was red wine that effects him and makes him act badly (I agree with that, I'd already made the connection and I know someone else who's husband had to stop drinking for the same reason). He said he would stop drinking red wine. I felt that he'd finally realised how serious this was and that he was sincere, and I hoped hoped hoped that he would sort himself out now. I also pointed out that he knew he acted like an arsehole sometimes when he's drunk but still choose to drink a lot and take the risk of him acting like that. He didn't really have an answer to that.

He lasted 9 days of not drinking. He hasn't been drunk, he's cut down, but he's gone back on what he said. Which makes me so sad as I know he didn't mean what he said and he isn't actually taking it seriously at all. He'd rather drink and lose me. I know he is making an effort, but is it enough?

If he can keep his drinking under control and not get drunk and nasty, that's all I want, really. Then we can have a great relationship and life together. But now I feel I can't trust him to do that, can I, as he didn't keep his word about not drinking in January, he just hasn't bothered. He seems to think he did stop for a bit, so that proves he isn't an alcoholic, so that's enough. It isn't. Not for me to believe I'm more important to him than drinking.

I'm heartbroken that he would throw everything away for the sake of a few drinks. He tells me I'm the best thing that ever happened to him, that he loves me. He also said recently that he thinks I'm too good for him and I'll get fed up and tell him to leave, so he's just enjoying it while it lasts. I'm sure this makes him feel low, so then he drinks. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy. I could shake him for being so stupid and wasting this.

What should I do? Maybe the message has got across and he will continue to keep his drinking under control and not turn into arsehole man again. But he probably won't, will he. I'm so cross as like I said, 95% of the time it's a brilliant relationship. I can't face a lifetime with the nasty 5% though. I don't want to leave him. I feel as though he is trying to sabotage 'us' though. I don't doubt he loves me very much. So why would he be doing that? Do I give him an ultimatum? I don't want to, I don't like controlling behaviour. He can do what he wants. But I don't have to be around to live with it if this continues. Or do I just give up now instead of waiting for the next incident and being right back where I was on New years day, knowing with my head that I should end it as this won't ever stop, or listen to my heart hoping, hoping, that he can stop this.

He can do what he wants. But I don't have to be around to live with it if this continues.

What's your benchmark for "if this continues"?

You had the talk, he stopped drinking, it lasted 9 days. So, it continues. What's your limit?

Oh for goodness sake. Really? Is there any reason to be with this guy? It sounds like you've given up. The good times are always good but they should outweigh the bad. It doesn't sound like yours do.

He sounds like a knob and yes I'm sure he is lovely really but he clearly cares more about drink then he does you. I wouldn't stay in a relationship where I wasn't the number one priority. If he was trapped in a box for a week, would he go to the off licence or go see you first?

Oh for goodness sake. Really? Is there any reason to be with this guy? It sounds like you've given up. The good times are always good but they should outweigh the bad. It doesn't sound like yours do.

He sounds like a knob and yes I'm sure he is lovely really but he clearly cares more about drink then he does you. I wouldn't stay in a relationship where I wasn't the number one priority. If he was trapped in a box for a week, would he go to the off licence or go see you first?

Sorry this does sound miserable, but truly? He's not about to change. Maybe he can't at the moment. Clearly he isn't taking you very seriously and why would he? You aren't being very assertive, are you? You are asking us not to tell you to LTB because he's so lovely yet saying you can't bear the bad times.

So concentrate on yourself. Your boundaries. Your tolerance level. What if 5% grows? Holidays? Bound to be more drinking. Weddings? Parties? All walking on eggshells.

Think it over in terms of this and then decide on your course of action. He isn't listening to you so you need to be the one who addresses the situation.

Sorry.

Is this alcoholic man really the best you can do?.

What do you get out of this relationship now. What needs of yours is he meeting here?.

Did you yourself grow up within a home where one or both parents were heavy drinkers?. I wonder why you are together at all now because all he is really doing here is dragging you down with him. His friends are all drinking buddies/alcoholics themselves.

The 3cs re alcoholism are ones you would do well to remember:-
You did not cause this
You cannot control this
You cannot cure this

All are hard to accept because your heart wants to rule your head here but look at the evidence in front of you and take the rose tinted glasses off now.

You are playing out the usual roles here present within such dysfunctional relationships. You are yourself being further harmed by staying within this for as long as you have; you are learning to be his enabler and also remain co-dependent within this relationship. Both are unhealthy patterns of behaviour for you to be in. You are also his provoker and pacifier. I would think your love for him is really rooted in co-dependency and in him you are trying to meet your own innate needs by wanting to rescue and or save him. You cannot do either in a relationship, it simply does not work.

What you have described in both this thread and the previous one you wrote is life with an alcoholic. This is what is it precisely like. You are basically lurching from one crisis to another and waiting for the next incident. You're walking on eggshells really; he is in complete denial re his drinking and he's paranoid to boot.

Your man's primary relationship is with drink (certainly not you) and his next thought is focussed on where the next drink is going to come from.

What is in this for you now really; you've been together 18 months and undoubtedly although there have been good times (and I would certainly dispute your 95%nice/5%nasty figure totally; how did you arrive at those anyway?) the bad times are fast increasing.

This is no life for you and you would be a fool to marry him. I am only glad that there are no children involved because it would be shite for them as well.

You're living with this all the time, not just the 5% of the time when he's drinking.

Stopping for nine days doesn't prove he isn't an alcoholic, frankly only an alcoholic would use that kind of logic in the first place! Regardless of that label, he is a problem drinker. His drinking causes problems.

Why don't you consider moving out - of the house, not the relationship? Put things back on to a more casual footing where you can enjoy time together when he's sober but you aren't obliged to deal with him being a prick whilst drunk. I would also limit the occasions you're with him when he is drinking.

OP, it's not 5%.

You listed 6 incidents in December, 2 passed out on the sofa 4 other incidents. Not sure whether NYE accusation of infidelity is counted in those or whether it's in addition. But 6 incidents in 30 days is actually 20%. On 20% of the days in December his alcohol problem caused issues.

He's totally in denial that he's an alcoholic and you're in denial about the extent of the problem.

It's going to get worse not better. You don't say how old you are but this is a waste of your life whatever your age.

OP, it's not 5%.

You listed 6 incidents in December, 2 passed out on the sofa 4 other incidents. Not sure whether NYE accusation of infidelity is counted in those or whether it's in addition. But 6 incidents in 30 days is actually 20%. On 20% of the days in December his alcohol problem caused issues.

He's totally in denial that he's an alcoholic and you're in denial about the extent of the problem.

It's going to get worse not better. You don't say how old you are but this is a waste of your life whatever your age.

Don't know what happened there, sorry!

Immediate response would be yes, do give up on it.

I drink, relatively regularly to the point of being "very drunk" (but not habitually). Whether I have a problem or not, I've never been abusive. There is never a legitimate reason to have to endure that. Most drunk people (including problematic drinkers) aren't abusive. Annoying? A bit obnoxious? Their own set of unique problems? Yes. But abusive is another thing.

If you'd been together 10 years and everything had been rosy, he'd gone through a tough time and had started drinking...I might be saying move out/take a break whilst he sorts his shit out, but that's really not the situation. This is who he is. He generally sounds like he wants to be living a single mans life, from your previous post too. Let him!

blimey - don't you think you deserve better?

Surely 1% of abuse is enough to leave him isn't it?

You are making excuses for his problem drinking

you are justifying abusive behaviour by blaming it on certain kinds of alcohol

you are very deeply mired in the "he's a lovely guy, but...." rationalisation

the fact is that this is untenable as you say, so what needs to happen here ?

clue: it's not actually something that you can sort it has to come from him and if he is only making enquiries more meaningless promises then you are on a hiding to nothing

He said recently you're too good for him and you are going to leave a anyway.....

His message is disguised as abject flattery, but is actually:

'whatever happens it's not my fault'

Lack of any sense of responsibility
Sexual jealousy/deep inadequacy
Problems drinking
Verbal abuse and intimidation

= run for the hills!!!!!!!!

Sorry but sury LTB is the only sensible option??

Thanks for all the comments and advice. I do hear you and honestly it's nothing I don't already know.

Why am I even considering continuing?

Because it was worse than this before. He has made efforts and things have improved, December was a really bad backslide from him. I'm weighing up whether he can finally pull it together and make December the last time. Because I know that if there's one more incident, he's history. And I don't know if it's worth waiting to find out if there will be that one more incident. His drinking again in January (albeit not in a bad way) is preying on my mind that this is going to be the pattern of my life, a few months good, then a month of shit. Not OK. I suppose that's where I got 5% from, as there are times when it's not like this. 5% overall, but it tends to come in periods of bad behaviour. In the past he's told me he needs to 'go off the rails' now and then. I realise now I can't live with that.

It hasn't all destroyed my love for him, but it has destroyed my respect. Can he earn that back? I don't know. I so want him to learn from this last episode, but deep down I think it's a lost cause.

Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. This could have been such a good thing. Stupid man. He does prioritise extreme drinking over me. Of course he does. Whatever he says, his actions prove that, over and over. He gave up on the no drinking in Jan because one of his friends told him he's allowed a day off from it. How fucking pathetically weak is that, to agree. I wanted to say 'and if your friend told you to jump off a bridge, would you do that too?' like Mums do. His friends all drink a lot. I like to drink a lot, sometimes. I don't turn into nasty wanker when I do though. If I did, I wouldn't drink a lot. If he's so easily led by his friends, then their opinions are worth more to him than mine. His relationship with them is worth more than his relationship with me. Alcohol is worth more than me.

Fuckity fuck.

I know I'm being stupid and it'll probably all end in tears, but I want to give him one last chance. Mainly because he HAS improved, so I need to know if he's willing to do what he needs to do to stay in this relationship. If not, he needs to be honest about it, and we give up. I'm going to show him this and the previous thread. I'm going to talk to him about my list of crap from December.

But it's not all his decision. He needs to stop NOW with the shit behaviour. He needs to re-win my respect. If anything like the December incidents happen again, ever, then I'm ending it. Let's say he's on probation from now on, for a long time. And marriage is obviously off the cards for a good couple of years.

A slight, temporary improvement is not much progress though is it?

I fail to see why you are putting yourself through this. Surely the only acceptable amount of abuse is zero? You will just spend your life waiting for the next hammer blow from him. And to consider marrying him seems like utter madness to me - sorry.

I would get in touch with AlAnon if I were you.

His friends all drink a lot - and yes they are likely to all be alcoholics or problem drinkers as well.

Re your comment:-
"I know I'm being stupid and it'll probably all end in tears, but I want to give him one last chance. Mainly because he HAS improved, so I need to know if he's willing to do what he needs to do to stay in this relationship. If not, he needs to be honest about it, and we give up. I'm going to show him this and the previous thread. I'm going to talk to him about my list of crap from December.

But it's not all his decision. He needs to stop NOW with the shit behaviour. He needs to re-win my respect. If anything like the December incidents happen again, ever, then I'm ending it. Let's say he's on probation from now on, for a long time. And marriage is obviously off the cards for a good couple of years".

He will likely accusing you of nagging him. And now you're falling into the usual trap common to such dysfunctional relationships by attempting to make bargains with him or put him on probation. Policing him will just drive you nuts ultimately.

I think the above is really your own co-dependency issues talking here. That and a wrong feeling of failure if you walk away from all this. The sunken costs fallacy is also rearing its ugly head here with your emotional over investment in this to date along with this "I want to give him one last chance" malarkey. How many chances has he already messed up here?. All the above is mixed in with your "I do not want to leave him"; words that will surely come back and bite you on the behind.

If you marry him I guarantee you will be in the divorce court within a year or two. Is that really what you want for yourself, is this alcoholic the best choice?.

The sad thing is OP that you do genuinely seem to have managed to deceive yourself that there is a chance that he may not screw up again. Totally unrealistic. Of course he will.

He managed to stay off booze for 9 days only. 9 days!

He's weak, easily led, irresponsible and addicted to alcohol.

The only hope he would have of staying clean would be if he were already on an AA programme and totally committed to it. Even then there are no guarantees. He's neither.

You don't appear to have any idea of what's really involved in giving up problem drinking OP.

I don't see the point of waiting for the next fuckup. But hey ho, it won't be long...

Let's say he's on probation from now on, for a long time. And marriage is obviously off the cards for a good couple of years.

So, you're giving him several more years of your time?

I wish you all the best, OP. But I would like to ever-so-gently point out that speaking to you is "like talking to a brick wall" as well: you seem to be having a hard time accepting the reality that this, here, is who he is, and if you don't like it, then your only option is to walk.

Jeeez if my daughter ends up with a twat like your dp I hope to god she has the sense to end it before she wastes any of her life placating a complete fuckwit like this.

For some reason you think this 'man' is what you deserve?????

You know how this will end op, good luck.

What a nightmare, you are living with this all of the time not 5%!

He sounds vile when drunk and not that bloody great when sober, I don't get how staying sober in Jan will make any difference, he will probably drink double in February, oh no, he couldn't actually manage to stay dry and we are only on the 22nd!

Sorry OP, you are wasting your time and selling yourself short, he is showing you over and over again that drink and going out mean a hell of a lot more to him than you.

Seriously he has a problem, he's lucky nobody has punched him yet.

At the very least live separately until he can PROVE to you that he can behave like an adult.

Sounds just like someone I was with in my twenties. He had a deep-seated lack of confidence and thought he was punching above his weight with me. I had looks and youth and brains but no money or status; he had status and money and street-smarts. He continually verbally abused me when he'd had a few drinks (you're from a bad background, you've got no money, you're naive and too nice etc..) and then afterwards (sober) he'd apologise. I finished with him. Years later, he explained that he put me down as this was the only way he felt that he could regain power in the relationship as he felt that he couldn't control me otherwise (I didn't need him). Is there a similar power dynamic with you and your dp OP? Is he verbally abusive to others when he's had a drink or just you? Do others see it? What do they say? Only you can weigh up the pros and cons of whether it's all worth it or not.

What happened to make you so desperate? Because you are desperate, if you will stay in a relationship with an abusive alcoholic rather than be single.