Why MIL? Why?

[SickoftheGames]

DH is nc with his mother. Various reasons which I respect.

We have a DS. I still facilitate contact with DS and MIL, I am friendly and simply refuse to discuss their NC as although I respect his decision I see it as not my business to discuss or mediate. DH respects the fact that I still speak to MIL for the sake of DS and is happy with the way we have worked round everything. DS is unaware of the NC.

MIL wanted to see DS over Christmas, DS wants to see her. I had arranged with her to go through to the city she lives to visit her between Christmas and New Year. Also to have a special 'Mum and Son' day with DS. This is nice for DS and I, and also allows for a reason to why Dad doesn't come without bringing a child into the family drama.

Why is she now, unannounced at my door?! She rang the bell and the house phone. She's been there around 20 minutes now. I have the feeling she won't leave until she sees us. I don't think she knows we're in as she'd be shouting by now.

She seems to expect me to 'take DH in hand' and demand he speak to her. DH and I don't tell each other what to do. He's made a decision as an adult and I respect it. Why has everything got to be a huge fucking drama on her terms. DH has done everything he can to keep me and DS out of the middle of this. She wants a huge happy reunion for Christmas, I get that. But argh!

I don't even know why I'm posting this. I don't want to cut her out, for DS alone. But I try to facilitate her seeing DS and I, we talk regularly and I keep her informed, but it has to be on her terms.

*weren't obviously

She has left. She parked out of sight this time.

I appreciate it may look immature to someone looking in the the situation hotblacktea, I do. However, our choices were limited and I chose the one to have the least impact on DS.

Once Dh and I have calmed down a bit we're going to agree on a way forward. However, if me travelling 30 miles each way by public transport during the Christmas period to see her even though her own son won't speak to her isn't enough, maybe nothing will be other than 100% her way.

If she's so toxic H is no contact, is she too toxic for DS?

What were the various reasons he went no contact? More info may help.

I linger on stately homes and am lc with my Dad.

'If she's so toxic H is no contact, is she too toxic for DS?'

She's ok with DS when I'm there usually. I don't go in for 'who hates who this week' so time together tends to be usual grandparent stuff. I feel today she used DS as a reason to try to come into our home despite DH's feelings.

If she'd phoned or messaged saying she really wanted to see DS today I would have arranged it. Hand on heart.

I was hoping I could shield DS until he was mature enough to understand the situation.

Sorry for the lack of info, I don't feel comfortable discussing DH's reasons here. However the decision was not taken lightly nor in anger. As a previous poster said, he knows his mother best. DH was comfortable with the contact we had between her and DS. We are now going to rethink this. But not today, it's Christmas Eve and we're going to have nice food and films.

I'm venting on here as otherwise it will eat me alive over Christmas.

And it's just clicked that you are spending some of your Christmas Eve giving me good advice and sharing your personal situations.

Thank you, very much.

How do you explain to a child why they won't be seeing Grandma anymore

I don't think you do. I think you just let things drift; don't organise contact and of your child asks to see grandma then string it out. Depending on the age of the child, they may just accept the new situation.

My only experience of this is with young children (under 4 years). They didn't see my dad and his wife for a year due to various circumstances, and they rarely mentioned it. If they did mention grandad and standard then I just responded to the situation as it happened. A request to go and visit? Not today, it's too far to go today. And similar. As it turned out, the next time they saw grandad was at a funeral, so grandad was understandably distracted and they didn't really get to see him much. It has now been another long stretch but they haven't questioned it.

So, my answer would be not to make any grand explanation but just to decide whether you want there to be contact between MIL and your DC, change the pattern of contact as necessary, and then deal with any questions from DC as they come.

Have you read toxic parents or any other of the well known books?

I think you're right, after Christmas you need to think carefully moving forward on what to do.

DCs watching Wallace and Gromit and I'm sitting here on phone

No thanks needed, OP - what prep isn't now done for tomorrow won't be needed!!

I don't imagine your DH will have gone NC lightly, and of course you don't have to go into every detail here. You're clearly doing your very best in a ghastly situation, and I do agree that nothing except 100% her own way would satisfy her - it never does with people like this, which is why firmness is so vital

Having ignored the door so long you can hardly open up now as that would look even worse, so try to ignore it as best you can, have a lovely evening tonight and a great day with whatever you're doing tomorrow

I'm going to be a bit harsh here because I think you've missed something very very important (disclaimer: I have a toxic mother)

You said My side of the family doesn't have this dynamic and I feel rather under-equipped for all of this.
Yes, yes, you do seem very much under-equipped.

Do you realise you have been victim-blaming?

You believed that if you behaved properly, MIL would behave properly. It was all a matter of proper management of her strong character.

Did you think about how that portrays DH? The implication is that his behaviour caused his DM's bad behaviour. That he could have stopped himself from being emotionally(?) abused by behaving differently. You actually believed it too, didn't you? Because the reality of emotional abuse, of toxic parents, is so hard to accept if you've never experienced it? You said the thought of it has had you in tears.

maybe nothing will be other than 100% her way.
DH had to leave you to work it out for yourself through bitter experience. That must have been hard for him. Do you now finally see that the bad behaviour is all her fault? I hope so.

Once Dh and I have calmed down a bit we're going to agree on a way forward.
Perhaps listen to the expert. He's living with you btw. This time try to believe him, even if it seems unbelievable to you with your lovely family. Even if it makes you cry because you can't imagine your mother being like that. Horrible things can be true.

I actually think if your DH goes NC with one of their parents, it's quite odd not to do so yourself if you agree with them. So I'd either be talking then around or disagreeing with their reasoning. Not that it's important of course, but I'm struggling to understand your decision to stay in contact with her when you agree with your DHs reasons for not doing so, I feel it undermines his decision and sends her the wrong message.

She sounds very unhinged and more than a tad annoying. Another reason NC sounds like a good idea to me.

As for DS, you don't have to as much, just let it drop. If he keeps asking over a period of time, just say something like 'She was horrible to Daddy and we don't spend time with people who are horrible to you, me or a Daddy'. If he asks what it was, tell him, age appropriately and as briefly as you can.

But don't let it spoil your Christmas! I am sure anyone that matters on the dreaded Facebook already has the measure of her!

We told DD why we have no contact with certain members of the family.

She understood "X did bad things to daddy when he was young and we can't risk them being horrible to you." from age 4.
Also, we have used the phrases "they are not a nice person, some people aren't nice and sometimes that includes families".

She obviously is trying to get her feet back under the table - don't feel sorry for her - she just needs someone to be horrible to and it is a soft option to reel in an old victim rather than break in a new victim.

If his mother is so awful your DH would rather hide upstairs than face her - just think what she did to inspire that fear - and she'll try to do it to your child too.

So tomorrow when you go to hers, will you claim you were out (and therefore have no way to challenge or tackle her awful behaviour because you aren't supposed to know it happened) or admit you were in (and therefore have to have a difficult conversation about why in front of DS)?

Perhaps the best option would be that if she asks about it you say you were out, feigning total surprise, but then say "thank goodness! If we'd been in there would have been a right scene - I'm glad DS didn't have to see that. Please do call ahead next time, you know I'm happy to arrange meet-ups I just need to know."

Op I was like you. I naively thought that people who fell out with family were just stubborn and all it took was for some compromise, understanding and kindness. Little did I know that some people are just so horrible that nothing will ever work and you're better off just giving up and having as little contact as possible.

Not saying that's what you should do but as others are saying. Listen to your dh.

I went nc with my mother for two years, I agree if dh had carried on contact with the dc's it would have totally undermined me.

As it is she knows which behaviour I will simply not put up with and now we have limited contact, she steps over those a boundaries and she knows that I will simply not speak or contact her.

By doing what you're doing you are enabling her to get to your dh

You sound like a lovely reasonable person, which is exactly why she is using you. My dp is the same and she used to say stuff to dp rather than me. Luckily although it took a while I explained it to him and he did try to understand, but it wasn't until she started lying that it really clicked with him and he believed me.

I think some conclusions are being jumped to here.

We are not going to hers for Christmas. I would never leave DH alone on Christmas day. We were going between Christmas and New Year as stated upthread.

I have never thought DH stubborn in his dealing with his mother. He has had my love and support 100%. The decision to continue contact with DS was discussed, it was not a decision on my part to ride roughshod over his feelings.

MIL is not abusive (said by DH). I am not comfortable giving my husbands reasons here (he is aware of and has read the thread). I am comfortable saying that she falls out with her family like clockwork and I find her to be somewhat narcissistic.

She crossed our boundaries today in giving no warning prior to a visit and remaining outside calling and ringing the bell. DH did not hide 'out of fear'. He is not scared of his Mother. We simply did not want the whole thing thrashed out in front of our child on our doorstep.

I can never understand the 'I'm NC with blah blah but I'm still going to send my kids there'..

Toxic people don't suddenly become amazing grandparents. She doesn't care about her dgs. She wanted to wander in and expect every one to pretend all was well and banked on people not wanting to cause a scene in front of dgs.

She never went NC with her ds because you allowed access to him through his own child. She was just biding her time. She doesn't give two shiny shits what your dh wants or the scene it could have caused in front on her dgs. She sounds lovely

NC means NC not having access to your very vulnerable children.

I guess you're really starting to see your husband's point of view now. I don't mean that in a smug way.

I have been on both sides of this, me and dh have abusive parents in common.

I went nc with mine and it was a very difficult time, at first we tried to maintain contact between them and the dc it didn't work because regardless of boundaries that we would set ultimately they broke them and caused drama through one avenue or another it was very draining and i eventually put a stop to all contact and we didn't speak for a year.

Breaking free and having nothing to do with them for a year was like a dark cloud hanging over me, eventually i did start speaking with my mum and we are now working through things very slowly

dh went no contact with his mum around 6 months ago, she is a very evil person who is extremely abusive and she began unacceptable behaviour towards the dc. A clean break and no chance of a reconciliation atall there, she has done some unforgettable / unforgivable things

I am no stranger to hiding in the house whilst an abusive relative hammers the door down.

My only advice here is that your mil seemas to have no respect for the boundaries you have set so she sees the grandchildren still, your only option is a clean break and to have nc like your dh has made the decision to do.i think you need to support his decision.

How can he be expected to heal when his son is getting to see grandma and his wife puts up with it. She sees you as a weak spot

I don't think it's easy to judge the reasons for NC here. Clearly it's an unusual situation in that your husband has concrete reasons but seems genuinely fairly happy for you and your son to have contact with her. So presumably it's something that was an event or a non-response to an event and your husband is not in the slightest worried that it will happen again.

You say that actually you mostly get on ok with her. Is it possible to arrange to meet her and to have a straight out conversation with her? Something on the lines of

"you came round. You are aware that your son wnats no contact with you. That has to be terribly sad for you, but pushing at it by coming round unannounced is not going to work; it puts you yourself in a difficult position and seems like she's not respecting her son's decision however sad it is.

That you like the relationship with her but if pushed to a decision then you will have to stand with your husband since he's your husband. If she wants to come around then ring first or mail and arrange it. It won't work if she just turns up. It tends to push you yourself into a corner and that will become impossible in the long run".

She might get cross or not take it well but it does make the position unequivocally clear and from what you've written here, I'm faintly getting the impression she might respond better to clear communication than subtler game playing.

It's just impossible if she rings the bell and your whole family have to hide. It's just not on.

Having said all this, while it seems that your husband is fairly sure whatever-it-was that lead to NC won't reoccur, it's worth being careful with her with your son. She very clearly has problems with respecting others' wishes and at a guess she can be manipulative.

Try reading Toxic parents. She might not be actively toxic but the strategies in that book can be very useful for all parents who are pesky.