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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I thought I had the "perfect" marriage

50 replies

FozzzyBear · 20/12/2014 21:41

Although I'm divorced now, I am just finally able to look back on our "perfect" marriage, and to help me move forward I want some wisdom on whether or not I was unknowingly in a bad marriage.

After marrying, we moved abroad for his work and he knew people there because he had lived there years before. He joined various clubs and activities with his old friends but I was always home with our two young children. He probably went out 3 - 4 nights a week after work. Not drinking or at the pub, but on various activities so I was left alone a lot. Gym on Monday, Tennis on Wednesday etc and there was always beers afterwards so he got home at midnight.

If there was a works night out or one of his friends had a party or a dinner, he'd generally go on his own and I'd stay with the kids. He always offered to skip it, but I said it was fine and didn't want him to miss out. One of our kids had special needs and babysitting was hard.

Because of the age of the kids and one having special needs, I could not work or easily go to things during the day.

He never invited people over to our house. He knew people, and had work colleagues and they had wives too, but he didn't invite them over. I would try and suggest having dinner parties or whatever so I could get to know people, but he would always put it off.

He wouldn't give me passwords for his accounts for things, like his email or his Facebook and he never showed me our bank statements or gave me financial transparency and after he left me I found out we were in quite bad debt. I didn't demand any of those things, but looking back find it a bit off that he seemed to be a little secretive with them.

We only had the one car, and he said it was too expensive to insure me on it (it was an expensive and powerful car and I'd only recently learned to drive) and we also could not afford a second car, so I spent 3 years living in a foreign place with no public transport, two young kids and no friends or family which was really isolating.

At the same time as telling me he was really worried about money and could not afford things like insuring me on the car or visiting my family, he seemed to spent crazy money on silly things - like holidays as birthday gifts for his parents.

We agreed to have three children, and I had always wanted a girl, but after two children he just announced we weren't having any more and wouldn't discuss it. He just said that he was sorry he had made up his mind.

I know writing all of the above makes it sound like a terrible marriage, but on a day to day basis he was kind, loving, gentle and let me make the day to day decisions regarding the running of the house or the care of the children and he always consulted me on most big decisions and we decided as partners (except the children choice). He did all the things good husbands are meant to do; was affectionate, supportive, a good Dad, helpful around the house, always home on time, reliable, told me I was gorgeous all the time, brought me flowers and it was generally just a very happy loving home. He seemed, if anything, to be about the most romantic and devoted husband you could probably imagine so I sort of felt very loved and appreciated and seemed to be oblivious to the big picture.

After a few years of living like that though, I got quite down, very lonely (sometimes weeks would go by where he was the only adult I spoke to!) and got depression. I changed after that and stopped looking after myself, I was frequently crying, I was really down and just felt lost and barely went out of the house.

He would come home a lot to find me crying and still in my dressing gown and I talked to him and told him I was unhappy and very lonely a few times. When I did that he listened patiently, told me he loved me very much and we'd get through it. Sometimes he asked if I had my period or if I wanted him to look after the kids to I could go out or go away for the weekend, but I don't think he understood I had nowhere to go and no one to go with.

I remember just thinking it was normal with very young kids to be at home a lot and didn't really realise that he was not helping. I found it quite hard to get angry at him because if I did he would cry and tell me he couldn't live without me.

Then after I was depressed for about six months, he left me, he just told me that my depression had made me unbearable to be around, that I had changed, become boring, lost my sparkle and that my "negativity" was making him feel depressed himself and he no longer loved me. He'd never even mentioned before any of it and had always told me he'd stick by me through it, so it was really difficult to accept.

I am struggling still over piecing together all of this because I am an intuitive and intelligent woman, and yet for whatever reason I didn't stick up for myself in my marriage (or worse, I didn't even notice anything was out of order) and I actually believed he was the perfect husband.

I was wondering really whether or not it is my own fault for not being more clear about what my expectations were? I came from an abusive childhood and this was my first experience living with a man and I didn't really know what was normal.

I can't help just feeling so worthless, even after all this time and I am scared to get attached to someone else. I am stronger, and much more independent and would never let myself "lose" my own life and needs and wants to cater to someone else;s again but deep down I am scared that if anyone really gets to know me that they will stop loving me just like he did.

I feel like if I was with someone I'd have to pretend to be perfect and happy all the time and never get down or lost or ill to stop them from leaving. It's been over two years since the end and I just want to feel like I am good enough.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 21/12/2014 11:36

The thing is that even without all of the other stuff, he didn't react to your depression very well. When I feel low or crappy my husband doesn't just sit and say "I love you and everything will be okay", he tries to work out positive, helpful, real ways to move forwards. He doesn't just say "I'll babysit so you can go out" (I'm betting, BTW, that your husband DID know you had nobody to go out with so you wouldn't call him on it.) - he says things like "Let's invite people over" or lists off friends that he knows I've enjoyed spending time with in the past or says "let's google and see if we can find any baby groups", that kind of thing.

I agree the dynamic sounds all wrong, but it's very very hard when you're in the middle of it. It's just not as easy as you would think to realise, especially if you have a skewed relationship template to begin with.

Take this example: I had a boyfriend when I was about 18, he was a really sweet guy. He knew me and knew what I liked and we always had fun together. Like you say, it was never an issue if something went wrong, he just shrugged it off and we carried on. He had three or four major flaws, though. He was an alcoholic and never wanted to do anything except go to the pub and lie around in his bedroom in his mum's house which was filthy and dark because he never opened the curtains. He didn't wash very often and often stank, not awfully like a tramp or something, but like 2 day old BO. He "didn't believe" in commitment, and basically wanted to shag around all the time with men and women, which I didn't mind until he wanted to shag his ex-girlfriend and he basically refused to stop. But for all of these flaws, he never expected a lot from me, he always accepted me perfectly for who I was and it was just easy to be with him. He was a gentle drunk, not an aggressive one.

I still think fondly of him. For all his flaws, knowing that the relationship was ultimately unhealthy, I occasionally wonder what it would be like if I was still with him. Intellectually, I know long term I probably would have become depressed, caught various STDs, perhaps become an addict myself. But all through my awful next relationship I found myself thinking about him and comparing stuff - while XP (the awful one) would ruin days out with his moods and shout at me over tiny things, xbf (the alcoholic one) would have laughed, apologised and cuddled/kissed me if he accidentally hurt me himself (there was one time I kept playing back in my mind where he had swung around and caught me with his elbow).

Sometimes it can be the little ways that somebody interacts which gives us more of an impression of their overall personality. I think that my xbf was a shit boyfriend but a nice person, and I saw that person and was able to overlook some of the stuff which made him a shit boyfriend, for a while at least.

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself, but I would spend a lot of time waiting and learning and growing as a person before you start a new relationship in the future. Look at websites like Baggage Reclaim - that's a brilliant one about healthy relationships and what they actually look like. There's also the Freedom Programme which you can do online.

FozzzyBear · 21/12/2014 11:37

He has been horrible since he left. Like he turned off every emotion he had towards me at all and blames me for all of it. Sometimes I get a drunk call where he very patronising tells me he hopes I don't pass on my mental health issues to the children. I don't know who this person is.

He talks to the kids but rarely sees them because he's still overseas.

I am feeling okay in myself now. For a long time it was really bad obviously, but then I got my own life back, moved home near my parents, family and friends and was able to work again and see people and my depression lifted almost right away. I was in councelling a long time, still am once a month, and she thinks he is a narcissist.

OP posts:
FozzzyBear · 21/12/2014 11:39

He says "I still love you in my own way, but being with you wore me down" :( I think it was the other way around?!

OP posts:
Bonsoir · 21/12/2014 11:42

It sounds as if you were both acting out a relationship that was doomed to failure.

HellKitty · 21/12/2014 11:46

You were a trophy wife. I was one too. Nice having all the trappings but ultimately you were kept in a box. Mine was also EA. Don't fall into the trap of thinking your marriage was perfect because everyone thought it was - I got that too. It wasn't. It was hell, and a very lonely place to be.

I now live with a man who loves me for me, not for my womb or cooking skills. My old insecurities still surface sometimes but I knock them down before they get me.

CogitOIOIO · 21/12/2014 11:51

He's a nasty piece of work, isn't he? Fine as long as you were fulfilling your designated role as voiceless wife shaped pet, seriously inadequate when you needed some help..... and now cruelly manipulative despite having rejected you.

Morticia45 · 21/12/2014 12:26

We all have different experiences and we all interpret our own sense of normality when it comes to how we live our lives and what our marriages are like. Unless you live a different life, how could you tell if yours was 'normal' or 'perfect' or not?
Your husband made all the right sounds but didn't actually do anything to support or help you. He kept you isolated because that is where he wanted you. If you had no friends then you could not discuss or compare how your life was going. If you had no outside contacts or activities then you wouldn't be able to strike up friendships, or God forbid, relationships, that would show you how much better your life could be.
You are by no means worthless, maybe your expectations were low but you can raise them and raise your own self confidence and esteem by remembering what a fantastic, unique and gorgeous woman you are!

I hope you and the children have a beautiful Christmas and that next year brings you the happiness and joy that you deserve. xx

FozzzyBear · 21/12/2014 12:32

Thanks for that! this Christmas looks set to be the best one since all this happened. It will be the first one we are settled and don't "miss" him anymore and we're feeling positive about the future.

OP posts:
PurpleWithRed · 21/12/2014 12:39

I am stronger, and much more independent and would never let myself "lose" my own life and needs and wants to cater to someone else's again

Your ex-husband isolated you and controlled you, making you behave in a depressed and needy way. Then he decided he didn't want to be with someone depressed and needy*. You have learned that you can be happy without a man, and if one comes along who wants to change you you are better off without him.

You'll be fine!

*echoes of 'cutted up pear' here I think

FozzzyBear · 21/12/2014 12:47

What's cutted up pear?

And yes, I think he contributed to me being depressed and needy but I also allowed it to happen and then he didn't like what I became.

i suppose that in itself is a bit of a marriage cliche. I feel an idiot, swanning around thinking I had such a great marriage and not really realising it was a dud but I suppose what I am trying to do is learn from it.

OP posts:
thatsnotmynamereally · 21/12/2014 13:04

fozzy it is interesting reading about your interpretation of your marriage, I think you are spot on with your recognition in hindsight that he had an abusive agenda, whether he realised it or not. Lots of us try (or tried) to 'improve' or blamed ourselves for failing to be the perfect wife element of the perfect marriage, when there's no way we could achieve it. I know that even when I did achieve it for a fleeting moment, the goalposts would shift. And mainly I recognise how much we blame ourselves at the time for not being able to cope. I hope you have a wonderful, fun, relaxing Christmas. Please brush off his comments about your 'mental health' issues, classic abusive behaviour.

Quitelikely · 21/12/2014 13:05

Well OP I am so pleased you moved back near family and friends.

I am certainly not surprised that your depression lifted once you got away. I think your depression was entirely circumstantial rather than chemical.

IMO you had lots of little needs that were being ignored, those needs lumped together became your downfall. You weren't meeting them on your own because they mostly came about due to your exs behaviour and he was the one who could have stepped in and made the changes but he didn't and wouldn't.

Next time, you need to realise that your needs are important, ignore them at your peril. You gave a lot to your ex but took nothing. He was just there. You did everything for everyone and he took care if himself. You are much wiser to this approach now.

Unfortunately he cannot see above his own needs and wants. He wants to look after himself and let the rest take care if itself. This isn't possible with marriage and children. Input is required from both adults not just him paying the bills.

I'm also sorry that he believes that you will pass your mental health issues to your children. Brilliantly and by a stroke of luck that will not happen now thanks to the fact they are no longer around him to inherit his narc tendencies and your depression was not certainly nothing to do with genetic predisposition but more to do will being married to an absolute arsehole. I don't like to swear ever but sometimes, just sometimes the situation can demand it.

Have a brilliant, happy, amazing life and I raise an imaginary glass of something nice and fizzy to you!

saturnvista · 21/12/2014 13:26

I know a couple like this. Don't know if the deep-down circumstances are the same, though. He is very good at making his wife feel special. As a result of her childhood, she needs to feel adored. Provided she feels like the centre of his world, she doesn't look at the big picture either - he's rarely at home, he isn't very complimentary about her when she isn't there, he isn't very honest to her, he makes her work in his business for a pittance - she doesn't see any of this and it's partly because she wants to live in the bubble of being his 'perfect' darling. She's assertive in other areas of life, though. He does love her but not as much as he says she does. He's narcissistic but that's hidden behind the compliments. If she was to stop 'dancing' for him, he would struggle to see the point to her, I think. Don't know if that helps.

FozzzyBear · 21/12/2014 13:41

Thank you quitelikely Flowers

Sorry to say Saturn, but I think this was true of me. I needed to feel adored :( He liked adoring me. I suppose if I'd not got depressed or if we'd not relocated we'd have gone a lifetime perfectly happy.

Like your friend I was so assertive in the other areas of my life, I just saw him as flawless, and us as flawless. Maybe we see what we want to see.

OP posts:
inlectorecumbit · 21/12/2014 14:13

The best revenge is to be happy--not that you need revenge.
He is hitting out because he sees you as happy and he is no longer it control of that.
Good luck to you and your DS's-hope you have a truly wonderful Christmas
Wine Flowers

Mom2K · 21/12/2014 19:30

I think it helps to create change in the next chapter by understanding what really happened in the first one

^ Agree with FrozzzyBear

tribpot · 21/12/2014 19:57

I suppose if I'd not got depressed or if we'd not relocated we'd have gone a lifetime perfectly happy.

What you mean is, if you had never any of the normal needs of any other human being on the planet then, yes, you could have served your function as a Stepford Wife and been 'perfectly' happy/sleep walked through your whole life.

I don't think it's a coincidence that he chose to relocate to a place where you could be put inside a gilded cage. Where he would simply never have to interact with you as an equal, a separate human being with all the same rights and desires and agency of your own. A place he already knew was like that.

He 'let' you make all the day-to-day decisions because he had no interest in what went on at home - why should he? Lord of the manor only popped back when he had to. I can't really fathom why he kept you without a car, did he think if you went out in the world at all you would realise how unnatural your situation was?

I don't think you 'allowed' yourself to get depressed. Anyone would have suffered in your situation. Should you have left sooner? Yes, probably. But that is an enormous undertaking with small children and a belief in a 'perfect' life. And the more depressed you got the more difficult it would have been to achieve.

Why do you tolerate phone calls from this person? Have a phone he can use to contact the children at prearranged times and otherwise cut him out of your life. You don't need him whispering doubts into your ear.

There is no point beating yourself up about 'if only'. You aren't a perfect human being and god knows he isn't either. As to how you avoid repeating this disastrous relationship pattern - I don't think you will. You have two children whose interests you will always put first. Another of these dominators would try to insert himself into the hierarchy and I just don't believe you would let him. Beyond that, maybe work with your counsellor specifically on assertiveness in intimate relationships?

saturnvista · 22/12/2014 00:22

I've just come back on and read your response to my post OP. Even before tril took the words out of my mouth, I was getting ready to type 'You wouldn't have been perfectly happy, you'd have been stuck in a gilded cage for the rest of your life.' I can see that you know this already, but perhaps part of your reason for posting is to hear others saying it. The life you were leading with this clever, selfish man was a miserable one. You were unfulfilled and isolated. I'm not saying he's wicked - who knows what drives him to act so selfishly - but the way your life was taken over was wicked. What I will never understand is why you didn't get angry sooner. Like straightaway. But I'm horrendously confrontational.

FozzzyBear · 22/12/2014 00:59

I don't know either. I think if I had he'd have sorted it out.

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tribpot · 22/12/2014 11:18

I think if I had he'd have sorted it out.

Hmm - very doubtful. I think perhaps you would benefit from the Freedom Programme or at least reading the oft-recommended Why Does He Do That? Blaming oneself for having been abused is a very common reaction, but the reality is that you were quickly placed into a situation where you were vulnerable and had no power, yet were constantly told you were cherished and protected. You could not have averted this situation, any more than the spouse of a violent abuser could by not winding the abuser up.

PlantsAndFlowers · 22/12/2014 11:42

Seems odd that you say 'was I unknowingly in a bad marriage?' And then list a load of bad things. It doesn't seem as if there's much room for doubt. You don't talk about being happily married at all.

FozzzyBear · 22/12/2014 11:54

It would have been a 10 page post if I'd listed all the great things about our marriage and it didn't seem the point of the post to chat about that. At, the time, the things listed were not things I saw as bad. I know that sounds incredibly stupid, but it didn't strike me in any way that he was selfish.

Let me try and put that into context and maybe you'll understand.

If a person appears completely selfless in their general life, it's hard to see the bigger picture.

This wasn't a man who came home from work and went off to relax while I got dinner ready or a person who sat there playing playstation or someone who was off at the pub all the time.

It was more like he would wake up in the morning, always give hugs and kisses and have a laugh with you while you brushed your teeth and had breakfast. He'd bring you a cuppa in bed and play with the kids when they woke up a bit. He'd go off to work, and call or text maybe to see if you needed anything on his way home. He'd come in after work and instantly be superdad. Playing Lego or conducting science experiments and simultaneously asking if I wanted him to cook or pick up something takeaway if I was tired. We'd sit and have dinner all together, everyone happy, then the kids would go to bed and we'd cuddle up and he was affectionate, always wanted to hear about my day and tell me about his. At weekends, he'd always play with the kids or help around the house.

So it was a contrast, because he was like that BUT he was always off out too. But not to the pub or nightclubs, it was to be in sports clubs or things like that.

It's REALLY hard in that situation to begrudge someone who is otherwise kind, loving, supportive and seemingly selfless on the surface those activities which are for him. It's difficult to explain but it's a bit like the day to day things obscure the larger picture from your head.

He wasn't a dick to me ever really, and if anyone asked me I'd have probably said I wore the trousers. What he did, instead of being overtly controlling was to really avoid talking about things or not properly listen to what I was saying.

I think he was selfish and very dim, but not intentionally abusive to me. I think if he honestly actually understood the things talked about in this post he'd feel bad and maybe a bit shocked. I think he thought he was a great husband working hard to make me happy and seemingly unable to do so.

He was always awful at resolving problems even in his own life, and he put up with things that were hard or difficult on him because he was never a solutions man. He always worked off the basis of hoping things would go away if you buried your head in the sand.

I suppose all that is moot though, because if he had loved me, he would not have left.

OP posts:
tribpot · 22/12/2014 12:14

I'd have probably said I wore the trousers

But in hindsight you can see that he refused to let you have a car, refused to let you visit your family, refused to let you have a child! Kept you financially in the dark, kept you socially isolated by refusing to bring people back to the house, and then once you were in need of real help, basically patted you on the head and said 'there there dear, it's okay because I love you'.

None of that is love. Or care, for another person. He played super-dad at most 4 and usually 3 nights a week and the rest of the time behaved like a single person. He appears to have given you no support whatsoever when you were dealing with a child with SN in a foreign country. He only wanted the perfect image of the ex-pat family - dad incredibly important, juggling social and work needs with family, loving family at home at his beck and call, lavishing his money on other people to prove how successful he is. Real life isn't like that.

You seem to think if you had just explained it better he would have immediately copped on and it all would have gone back to being 'perfect'. What's stopping you from doing that now? (Hopefully the fact you have some self-respect).

FozzzyBear · 22/12/2014 12:35

I'd not say it was like that in terms of overt refusal. He was more manipulative. Like emotional manipulation in a VERY subtle way and I came away from those conversation feeling like I was the one being selfish. I just didn't realise that it was abnormal really until a friends husband told me that if he wife had no car that he would make it his absolute priority to make that happen before the family spent money on anything else.

I think it wasn't real love or care for another person, but I FELT deeply loved at the time.

He gave support in terms of hugs, kind words, flowers and chocolates and telling me I was beautiful, lovely and that he was there for me no matter what but I didn't realise that's not actually helpful support. Helpful support is more practical in nature. I am coming to understand that now but just didn't see the diferrence at the time.

I do think if he'd understood it he'd have been diferrent, but I don't think anything I could have done would have explained it better because he wasn't listening. He just didn't want to listen.

OP posts:
FozzzyBear · 22/12/2014 12:38

I think, to be honest, relocating changed the dynamics.

I was once a working woman, he found me quite strong and I was so independent and had heaps of friends and fun times and adventures and I think that was what he loved about me.

After the relocation, the dynamic completely changed, and I became a sad SAHM and he stopped loving me.

It's a cliche I suppose, but not one based on very real love.

OP posts:
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