"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I know what theyre like, and they do treat people differently, triangulation is it

It's easier for some people to think in terms of black and white. They also think about how things should be rather than how they actually ... you know ... are.

That's so strong they put it on the children.

so one child can do no wrong, the other can do no right. One child is set up to fail, based on the smallest shadow of a reason. That can include reasons only in the mother's mind.

It's shit. It sounds like at least your oldest sister is kind and decent enough not to buy into their story even if she does not, maybe is not, in a position to see how you were treated.

Ride the white shark and hold onto what you know happened. It could be invigorating!

In haste, but meerka the shark made me !

Hi guys. Misc and Worry I hope you're both holding up OK.

I had a hypnotherapy session yesterday. It was wonderful and we dealt with letting go of anger.

Then this morning I decided to have a look at the emails my father has been sending to DH (yes I know, I don't need to be told what a colossally stupid idea that was). Turns out they have had some great chats about how I'm going to go to therapy and get the help I need as if my parents bear not even an ounce of responsibility for this situation. I am beyond furious with all of them but especially DH because I feel like he has let me down. And I can't say "Stop talking to them about me and don't ever lead to to believe that you think I'm a delusional nut job" to him because he'll know that curiosity got the better of me.

Oh I'm so bloody mad with the world today! Think I need another hypo session ...

Badgers ouch ouch ouch!!! Why can't you own up to the situation having driven you to this and it has to stop? Your DH would understand wouldn't he?

You talk to him about this stuff so he knows how you feel, and yes, I completely understand how this has made you feel. Your father trying to build alliances with your own DH against you??? Your father yes, happy that his DD is having to get help to deal with the way he has treated you? he's trying to ensure that you're not telling your DH anything else, and maybe your DH would rather just go along with him and feels intimidated by him, pressured to just agree so as not to get caught up in it himself?

doesn't make it right! You could always ask DH his view on why he think you actually need to get this support right now, via hypnotherapy (brilliant you have found something is working well). Just see what he says, but i think I'd want to go the route of telling how bad this has gotten that you are even distrusting your DH now and it turns out you possibly have grounds for that too. By doing this your DH is putting himseeelf right in the middle of the mess, and actively supporting your father, I would feel extremely cheated on.

Thinking of you Misc sending you some strength for today.

Thank you Meerka it is true. I cannot believe the times over and over that i have been 'so cruel and deceitful' to her. I always was a 'deceitful' child, Then again, me saying 'no' to any requests is an unbearable fallout that ripples throughout the family and there i go upsetting her all over again.

Letting go of that (riding the white shark) and seeing it for what it is, is very invigorating indeed. That white shark can be quite difficult to hang onto tho and sometimes it feels i wobble and will fall off, but over the years i have become much better at holding on tight!

Next one then, i don't want to meet older DS new partner, as he has now met everyone and i don't want to collude with 'happy family' crap, because things will inevitably surface that show i do not get involved with them... at all. This will make everyone else uncomfortable, and why do i have to be the breaker of the 'happy family' thing. He will have seen how 'happy' and 'lovely' she is, and father, and what a load of poppycock. they will no doubt have blamed the errant daughter if anything came up. Actually.... so fuck'em. I'm not going to be painted as some nasty crazy thing who tries to screw it all up. No hiding

Sorry, that was long!

oooh, I'm so tired today, Headache and threatening period too. Have to go pick up kids and to work in a bit and don't want to, want to go back to bed.

I think that all you can do in the end is smile and say "yes, I know what picture they are painting" and leave it at that. Dignity is very hard - very - but you'll get a lot more respect that way. Your own behaviour will show her what sort of person you are over time, hopefully. It might leave her puzzled but the relationship you build with her will be your own.

-

badgersnadgers I can't believe what your husband has done. It is a huge breach of trust. Deeply disrespectful.

Ive thought carefully about posting this, but I'm going to.

I'm afraid that it sounds like you can't trust him. Even if he doesn't see everything that's happened, he should have your back ... and he hasn't. Chattering to them about you is offlimits and discussing personal and private stuff like therapy is a betrayal of trust.

I am sorry :/

Hello all. Never posted in Stately Homes before, though I've read. Opened the thread today and tha talk of Christmas cards at the start of this thread made me think I should seek support.

I've been NC or low contact with my father since I was about twelve. A few years back while pregnant, I was so excited about the pregnancy ....and bored from seven months of bed rest...that I started an email conversation with him. We emailed a lot, considering in a 'good year' we would have maybe one phone call and one card.

Let him meet my children when they were babies, but the whole thing went tits up and reminded me why I was NC in the first place. Went properly NC. Even moved house and did not give new address.

I find out that last year my sister did give our address, and this year we got a card with one line written in...something like, 'Lets make a resolution to connect again.'

I felt sick in the run up to Christmas, worried he would send a card. Every tiny contact like this triggers me to doubt myself, feel guilty, worry about him dying with us NC, etc. The pressure has always been on me to do everything to keep the relationship going, he's never apologised once or even acknowledged anything he's done, yet still I feel like I'm the bad one.

Any support is welcome. Thank you.

I would also be annoyed with your sister for handing over your address to him without your consent. Do you have any relationship with her now?.

FOG - fear, obligation and guilt are but three of many damaging legacies left by such toxic people like your dad to their now adult offspring. I would suggest you read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward as a starting point. They also never apologise nor take any responsibility for their actions. I see too without any surprise that your dad has never apologised either.

I doubt very much whether he feels at all guilty; he probably just wants someone to look after him and feel sorry for him.

I presume too you have not at all responded to your dad's latest missive/emotional bait. Has he really ever had any sort of emotional connection with you; I very much doubt it. You will get the same outcome as last time. I am so sorry but such people like your dad do not change. Do not keep going back for yet more abuse or in the hopes that he will somehow have an epiphany and say sorry. It is NOT your fault he is the way he is.

Unicorn your sister should never have done that. She's really let you down.

Sugar it has been made clear to my father that I am willing to have a relationship with him but that I am not prepared to have any contact with my mother. Quite why he's going behind my back to contact DH is beyond me.

Meerka you are absolutely right. Trust is a huge issue - inability to trust my mother is one of the reasons I have chosen to go NC and one of the reasons why I find it difficult to sustain close friendships. And he's gone and done this. Dry January is hanging by a thread.

Badgers I agree with Meerka.

tbh, bugger the consequences wrt how you found out, I would tell your DH that you have seen the communications between your toxic father and him and regret that either one of 3 things has happened:

(1) that he has been bamboozled and sucked in by this nasty old man
(2) he has betrayed you and is actively passing on deeply private information to a person he KNOWS has no sense of boundary with you.
(3) he is ridiculously naive, perhaps to the point of now putting you in the position of having to keep everything from him in case he'll blab it to all and sundry.

there are consequences to each of the above. But the first thing that happens is that NO further communications regarding you in any way shape or form are to take place.

You can't let this lie, it will eat you up and then you will lose control and your Toxic Father will have the proof he needs to show the world that you are as he suspected all along a loon

Deal with this now, decisively and positively.

Badgers - if Dry January is merely a lifestyle choice and you don't have a problem relationship with alcohol, do wtf you like, you don't have to give anything up if you are not able to.

I myself am in a new and fabulously shiney relationship myself, so have been drinking more vino since Jan 1 than I probably did in the whole of last year!

Unicorn huge betrayal of trust, bearing in mind whats actually involved in upping sticks to somewhere new! huge!

So Badgers its a betrayal from your DF then, you seeing this as 'new' behaviour. Really sorry, thats horrible. He is supporting your mother then , i would think. and sorry for getting that mixed up! but the answer remains the same, as in, he is trying to re-write the therapy (not as a result of his actions, but hers - smacks of enabling!).

Just because they let you down, it does seem to make it easier to let yourself down [dry January], but do this in spite of them and you will be even better off

I will Meerka

Badgers,

What Hissy and Meerka wrote earlier.

I cannot see how any sort of relationship you have with your father can possibly be maintained now. This breech of trust from both him and your husband (what on earth was he thinking, what were his reasons exactly?) is horrendous.

BTW I think your father, being the weak bystander that he is, would always side with his wife over you. He may well idolise her as well, such men often need someone to idolise.

Hello unicorn

I'm going to quote perfectstorm:

Perfectstorm wrote this:

I will never fathom why blood alone should mean you're forced to let people hurt you over and over again, as long as they aren't physically or sexually abusive. It makes no sense. Life is too short to let bad/damaged people screw with you, no matter who they are, unless they are your own kids. You don't owe anyone else your unconditional love and time.

You don't have to have a relationship with him unless you want one. If you don't, then it's ok to not have one. There's certainly NO reason why you should be the one to have all the responsibility for keeping the relationship going. At the best of times, it takes two to have a relationship, not one unless you're kissing the mirror.

Who puts the pressure on you to have a relationship with him? Your sister? (why did she give him your address, was she aware that you didn't want any further contact?)

The strength of your emotional reaction shows that this relationship is weighing too heavily on you. Have you tried Toxic Parents by susan Forward? it's pretty helpful in understanding toxic relationships and your own reaction to them.

You can't change them, only how you deal with the shit that comes with them.

BTW I think your father, being the weak bystander that he is, would always side with his wife over you. He may well idolise her as well, such men often need someone to idolise

Oh she took his bollocks for a pair of earring years ago. Thing is he once told me that the happiest time of his life was when he was married to his first wife but he ballsed it up (OW) then met my mother. He has freely admitted that karma bit him on the arse.

I think, as an adult, he has probably given her his bollocks, or blames her for taking them, when in fact bollocks have nothing to do with it, it has suited him to be with her, for some reason, so much so that he is now defaming you in support of her.

Like said there, he needs someone to idolise no matter who he shoots in the process^

I would agree with the assertion made that your dad Badgers gets what he wants from his relationship with his woman now. Such weak men always need some woman like your mother to idolise and he also would much rather see you in the firing line.

Thanks, Meerka. I have read that book and probably still have it - maybe I will dig it out.

My sister passed on my address - despite me being VERY clear I did not want him to have it - because, I assume, she's deeply in the FOG. Hardcore guilt and desperately trying to have a relationship with him, and thinking I should, too.

I think the added complication comes from the fact that my father has various mental health concerns, particularly a severe personality disorder. S there's a hint of 'excusability' in his behaviour.

We did suffer physical and emotional abuse from him, and witnessed some crazy shite. But since I broke contact as a young teen, there's been no physical stuff. And minor emotional stuff....which might not seem like much if typed out, but when added to past experiences it breaks the camel's back.

The most hurtful thing as always been the disinterest or lack of attempts at relationship. Having children and not wanting them exposed to thisis what finally made me stop feeling guilty....except when these damn Christmas cards come.

If he has a severe personality disorder then it could unwise to have contact. Many people with severe personality disorders are difficult at best to be around for unprotected young ones and sometimes for highly protected adults, too. It isn't a matter or excuseability or fault even; it's amatter of what is best for the child.

I would speak to your sister and tell her -calmly- that you had asked her expressly not to tell him your address, that she has done so and you are very cross with her. That your children will not be having a relationship with him and that sadly, if you cannot trust her with your information then you will have to reduce contact with her. Keep calm if you do say this. But she needs to know that you are not to be messed with and that you will do what you need to to protect yourself and your children.

I would also not tell her anything that she might pass on to your father. Sadly until she can see clearly, it might not be possible for her to keep things to herself as she's that desperate for a relationship with him.

Burn the cards. Or bin them. Don't open them.

agreeing with the severe PD management. Telling her that you've done this to protect your DC and now they are exposed again, and was huge effort to do this just to be away from him.

I think its always a risk doing this to hide from abusers, even the authorities let out details, which i've experienced first hand. I know i know, soliitors, courts, barristers and all the rest are sworn to confidentiality, but too late once its out. I don't know 'why' they've done it, just know that its done by many, for many reasons. I have been having the same conundrum, of whether (if I'm allowed) to make that leap, and whether it will be worth all the grief and effort to move only to be discovered. I tend to take the view that it will get out somehow if anyone has any contact with them.

You need to protect your child from toxic and malign influences like your Dad. Your sister is at fault here for passing on your address details to him without your consent. She is a weak character and indeed had her own reasons for doing what she did. Some grandparents really should not be allowed access to their grandchildren and your dad is a case in point.

And what meerka wrote below:-
"It isn't a matter or excuseability or fault even; it's a matter of what is best for the child".

ABSOLUTELY what Meerka said. What's best for the child trumps any 'reason' for damaging behaviour.
If you're struggling, think of it like this (this is taking it to extremes, and may be triggering, so read with caution):

Paedophilia is a mental health issue, it's not a lifestyle choice. It's a sexual attraction to minors. If you knew someone was a paedophile, and couldn't help being that way, and had triggers in their past that contributed to their condition, etc etc, would you let them near your child, because they couldn't help but want to have sex with your child, and might be overwhelmed enough to act on it? No. Same applies to personality disorders, and they can be extremely damaging too.

Spoke to gp today who was very nice though not very helpful, not much anyone can do really, I know.

She's going to get someone to ring me from psychological services, which is the charity they farm out councelling stuff to in this area.

I don't know how I'm going to get through next week honestly I dont. Have to go up on Thursday - sat. Funeral on fri.

My mum phoned today and I didn't have any input to the service. I think I should have, but I just can't. It's all I can do to carry on breathing.

The curate came over on tues and showed ds how to light a special candle he brought from the church and pray for my dad. He thought it would really help especially for young children to have a special way of remembering and comforting. I thought it went well and ds asked me two days running to spit and I'm ashamed to say I said no as I couldn't make myself. Then today I said sorry to ds for not doing it and encouraged him to do it with me tonight. But something happened and I don't know what and he started to sob badly and said he didn't want to do it anymore. Maybe the candle crackled and freaked him out? Or it smelt different, or he leaned his face too close and it felt too hot ... Or I said the prayer wrong.

But he cried for ages and ages and I failed him.

You didn't fail him Misc, you were absolutely there for him. You let him be him, express his true emotion, do it his way, firstly with wanting to light the candle and then in choosing not to. This is what a loving parent does. Of course he is experiencing loss and you cannot protect him from that, but you are supporting him, showing him it's ok to feel his own emotions, developing the resources he will use through his life. You are not failing, you are amazing.

Sorry everyone to just pop up like that, I'm still not ready to do more than lurk, but I couldn't leave you Misc to feel so distraught. I am sorry for your loss.

misc, it's right and normal that he cries and trust me, it's far far better that he cries that he doesn't. Sadly I know whereof I speak, much too well.

It's important he has the space and time to cry and you are there for him while he's crying.

You are grieving badly. So is he. This is his way of showing it and it helps.

"There is no cure for weeping save tears"

You have too much on your plate atm but if you find any extra reserves, it's worth talking to Winston's Wish. They are an organisation that is there for young ones who have lost a beloved family member. They can help you know what's right and normal.

hallo