was this emotional abuse? (sorry long)

[NotMe33]

Namechanged for this.

My DF is on the AS (diagnosed late in life) I have always had a difficult and painful relationship with him but do not know how much to put down to his difficulties with communication and how much could (and perhaps should) be classed as a form of emotional abuse. I hadn't thought about it this way until recently I told some things to a family member who was really, really horrified.

My DF clearly hated being a parent, spent as little time and emotional energy on us as possible and when he did, tried to control everything, otherwise he would be so unbearable with anxiety and rage we did anything to keep the peace.

He was extremely critical of me and did'nt see any worth in the friends I had or the things I was good at. When I tried to tell him he had really hurt me, he would often say really mean things (like I should have been aborted) and withdraw in cold silence.

When I became a teen, he would swing between trying to treat me like a small child to be ordered around and making v inappropriate comments about my developing bust (Benny Hill style). There were some allegations that he had inappropriately touched a young teen intern and honestly, I think its entirely possible. He gets very, very upset at all the child sexual abuse trials going on and (until the stuff on Savile came out) maintained there were just 'different standards then'. He also said 'Worse things happened to children in the Holocaust'.

When I unfortunately suffered an attempted rape at knifepoint, he laughed and told me that 'I did get into some silly situations'. If I ever try and talk to him about what he has said or done that has upset me, he looks at me blankly and says it never happened and I am 'imagining things' and 'must be ill in the head' again.

Things improved after I disengaged completely for a while when he was repeatedly calling me up and leaving messages that I didn't deserve a promotion at work I had had. Now I don't get anything like the verbal attacks I once did, he will just moan and moan and moan about some little thing so that my time with my DM is ruined. Yet he can be absolutely charming and lovely to my brother - gauche and awkward yes, but sweet and obviously trying.

I have done as much as I can to learn about AS and the difficulties he experiences with appropriate behaviour/speech. But our relationship is still tense and cold.

I am courteous and try to respect his needs but honestly feel no warmth or love towards him. Although it does hurt when we are together as a family and he treats me very differently to my sibling.

My family member thinks I am bending over too far to please him, but I don't know what is just the result of him never having had the support he needs to parent well. Can any of you advise please?

I should add that I'm sure my maternal Grandfather had AS, but he was born in 1905, no chance of a diagnosis in his day!

Sorry we x posted. Wow. I can see you really do get it. Yes, agree her assertiveness is brilliant. She used to be such a timid little 1950s wife it made my blood boil!

Oh crikey. I am fairly sure my DF's DM had it. She hated being touched, at all. Even by her GC for a cuddle. She just froze. And his DD was a POW and came back from war one angry drunk. So he had a lousy childhood, poor kid.

Sorry that should have been DF's DF was a POW...getting my acronyms muddled!

It is weird when you start tracing ASD back through generations. I started thinking about it when DS2 was diagnosed with it aged 2 (he is severely autistic and has severe learning difficulties, so it was apparent from an early age) and have come to the conclusion that my family tree is riddled with it!

I can see that you standing up to your DF would have put you squarely in the firing line! An angry drunken father must have been awful for him to grow up with, but I guess your DF wouldn't have minded the lack of motherly cuddles if both were on the autistic spectrum. That must have been truly horrific to have been nearly raped at knifepoint, congratulations on coping with that despite your DF's classically inappropriate response. Could you try to just mentally switch off from his constant moaning when you are with both parents? Maybe you and your now-assertive mother could contrive to change the subject to something more positive when he starts?

I am sorry you and DS2 have so many difficulties to contend with cheapskate. How has life been since the diagnosis for you and your family since? How have you found accessing support locally?

And re: switching off that is exactly what I do. The problem is, he has said so much hurtful stuff that I catch myself automatically tuning out as soon as he starts talking on the phone - even if he isn't having a go or moaning. I can barely remember what he has said enough to give more than minimal responses most of the time.

I think it must be a self protective sort of detachment because I am really not that bad at listening to other people normally! It is only when I am with him that it really grates....

Either way I feel guilty for not bearing with him enough through his obvious difficulties because of behaviour which is largely in the past. There are some things I just can't do physically because of my disability so I try and think what it would be like if no one could see the things you found hard. But then I wonder if I am being too charitable and muddling AS with just being a bully?

Hi NotMe33

I apologize if I am butting into a conversation you are having with cheapskatemum. I just want to say that I think your DF might well be a bully or have other difficult personality traits. He certainly has issues with women and how he feels about them. I think it might be this part of him that you react to and not any social lack of understanding connected to (possible) ASD.
The social struggles for a lot of ASD people are not malicious and is something they regret. You can tell the difference IMO.

I had missed the fact that you have a physical disability. Gosh, if that's the reason he says you should have been aborted (I can barely type this, it's so wrong!) and why he treats your brother preferably, I'm amazed at your ability to tolerate him at all. No wonder he says there were "different standards then".

Tbh, as he has AS, your DH might not even notice that you are tuning out of his monologues over the phone - they may well be more about his need to talk than the fact that he'd like to hear your heartfelt response.

For me the difference between behaving in a certain way due to having AS and being a bully comes down to intent. If words or actions are due to an inability to see things from another's point of view and therefore there is no intent to offend, hurt or manipulate, then even if this is the effect they have, I don't think it can be deemed as bullying. As you and, latterly, your DM have found, making a stand against such behaviour leads to modification. The power balance between parent and child is such that you weren't able to do that growing up.

Thank you for asking, we were living in an outer London borough when DS2 was born. Support was extremely difficult to come by and even harder to retain. We moved to East Anglia so that all 4 DSs could have space and countryside to grow up in and in the process found far greater support for DS2 and the family in general.

Hi dadwood,

You aren't butting in at all! Thanks for coming back to talk to me about this. I really appreciate it. Issues with women? Oh yes!

But the controlling thing could easily be AS-related as could the rage issues. Your point about remorse is key though. I think I might ring the NAS and talk to them about this.

There is quite a lot of AS in my family and I generally consider myself pretty aspie-friendly. But dealing with an adult or child who has long had a diagnosis, who has an understanding of their needs as part of their self-concept, and who has been supported to develop good coping strategies is so different from dealing with someone who has received none of that. Understandably, they have developed other strategies that protect themselves, but may not work for other people. I have a dear friend whose DC are on the AS, which led her to suspect that her now ex H is too, but without the diagnosis. The things he has said to her whilst in a rage are just jaw dropping and, like my DF, he looks blank and says those conversations have never happened when she asks him about them later.

I think what this very helpful and supportive thread has taught me is that in a sense it doesn't matter if it isn't my DF's fault, most people are still saying that those behaviours are damaging enough for them to take self-protective measures up to and including NC. That's very affirming as I have felt a bit to blame for having felt so wounded by him.

cheapskate sorry these posts are long so I thought it easier to separate them - don't mean to be having multiple conversations!

I am so glad you are all getting the help you need - or at least more like it. And you have 3 other DC too! Crikey, you must be some woman!

And no, my disability wasnt the reason my DF made that comment. It is sensory-related and although I was struggling, I wasn't diagnosed until adulthood. Just told off for being slow, not concentrating etc. Them's were different times! But thanks for your sensitivity!

I think he was more referring to him not wanting to have a DC2 as he already found parenthood so hard and unenjoyable. He was, in a way, telling what is for him a simple truth. It wasn't said with malice - just as a flat statement of fact.

What I read into that now is that perhaps he shouldn't have been a father because he doesn't have ( and wasnt willing to work with anyone to develop) the core competencies for my sake. He just wanted to be left alone where things were in order and he could get on with his current interests. On the one hand, I think poor man. On the other hand, I think of me as a young 'un and think, poor kid.

It makes me appreciate it so much when I see the great bond between my DH and our DC. I praise my DH all the time for his kindness and effort and he keeps telling me that's normal. But for me, it wasn't. I kid you not, my DC regularly have more cuddles, laughs and games in one weekend than I think I ever received from my DH.

But I guess the most pressing question is how can I manage Xmas without going crazy?

Hi NotMe33

I am sure I am undiagnosed ASD, I have thought it for years. I have visual stress and photosensitive epilepsy, both sensory issues which can be related to ASD.
My DS who is nearly 4 is ASD and is very different and non verbal. He won't go to mainstream school next year.

Regarding what you said about differing protective strategies developed by undiagnosed ASD person, I agree, they may be more or less adaptive to the ASD person's surroundings. I guess everyone is different.

I definitely had righteous rage at all perceived injustices when I was younger, but I was also mortified when I thought that I might have upset or victimised somebody. I'm still very sensitive to that and I sit around racking my brain trying to understand how other people think so that I don't upset them. I think I went the other way, I am always unsure about what I am saying.

I think what I mean is that we are all different and ASD people are all different and you are allowed to call bad behaviour what it is, even if it is partially a result of ASD.

Yes, I am one of the people who thinks that you should take self protective measures against his behaviour independent of the root causes.

Notme your posts show such understanding. I know it's not much consolation, but the upbringing you had have made you into the person you are today. dadwood I have a very dear friend who presents as you describe. He rather fearfully asked me if I thought he might be on the autistic spectrum and I answered much as you have, yes, but each person with AS is an individual first.

I probably should add, I know people who have AS and are great parents. I have much admiration for their perseversance and resourcefulness. Parenting can be tough for anyone, but working out how to do that with mind blindness. Wow. People, I salute you!

Growing up with a parent who has AS has also thought me three really invaluable things. 1. The power of concentration - I just don't get distracted the way other NT people do. 2. The deep peace of being alone but most importantly, 3. To accept that people can be totally, radically different to you. So even if they are yelling in your face, it is worth trying to puzzle out why they feel the need to do that, rather than just reacting with more anger.

I wouldn't have chosen to have some of the down sides of my upbringing but those are all things worth knowing.

The trick is perhaps knowing when to keep puzzling out and when to remove yourself from the situation. (Sigh) I don't think I know how to do that yet, but you MNetters have all helped. Thanks

Notme I have a mental image of an angry face, millimetres away from your own, rude words flying out of its mouth at mega decibels and your expression one of calm puzzlement as their spittle rains upon you

Well I am not quite that Zen! But I have noticed definite patterns of things which seem to trigger DF's outbursts. Some of them I can do something about but one of them I can't because the main factor seems to be...me.

Don't take it personally, it's his problem rather than yours. You have affirmation from complete strangers on this thread who see your worth. If he chooses to negate you to the extent that you would rather not spend time with him, it's his loss.

Noticing triggers and avoiding them where possible is an excellent strategy and one which we have to remember to use with DS2 (just don't ask about the 3 helpings of sweet and sour chicken balls for breakfast).

That's so kind of you to say cheapskate. My DM says she thinks it is partially jealousy which he isn't able to process very well. I work in the same field he used to work in but have been promoted higher than he ever was. I don't go on about it but the worst bouts seem to happen when I have just achieved something.

I expect that's one trigger you won't be avoiding then! Congratulations! My aunt tells me my Grandfather, who was in the RAF, should have been a Wing Commander, but only got to the rank of Squadron Leader because of his lack of people skills. He had a brother (whom we never met) who was the archetypal maths professor stuck in an ivory tower. Apparently no one could stand him.

Thanks cheapskate

Yes, DF's people skills are pretty awful. If others aren't interested in hearing all about his latest interest (at length) he gets very angry and sneery. He has been known to go on at length about what he calls 'lower class of people' which sounds appallingly snobby, but actually has nothing to do with class at all, just means people who don't want an earful on the latest train timetable/special features of PowerPoint..

He lives in a retirement community now and is baffled by why others talk about their GC, show photos etc.He shows next to no interest in his. and just tells them (to their face) that they are very boring.

It is so sad actually, my friend's little boy who has received help and support from a very young age is one of the most popular little lads in his class. He has learned how to be with other people ( although he is still working on not controlling play and not cuddling them so hard they can't breathe!) and has a LOT of friends. My DF has never had a friend - how sad for that whole lost generation....