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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Life is complicated

52 replies

jorro · 14/12/2014 14:17

I'm quite interested in the black and whiteness of so many views expressed in this forum. I think what's most interesting is the tendency to condemn, as if behaving in a shitty way in one (admittedly central and vital) aspect of your life invalidates every other aspect. I was really struck by a couple of people claiming that a cheating partner cannot be called a good parent. I mean, of course a man who cheats is a bad partner, but the idea that this aspect of his behaviour invalidates his status as a good father (or a good anything) is ridiculous, and frankly pretty childish.

Nobody is all good. Very few people are all bad. Many people who have affairs know that it's a shitty thing to do, but they exist with that knowledge without it corrupting everything else, or being symptomatic of a wider moral failing. A person isn't trustworthy or untrustworthy, full stop: we are all trustworthy in some things, both big and small, and not in others. Everyone's frailties manifest in different ways; everyone makes different choices; everyone is a complex mess. We all live with compromised ethics in both big and small things, and we all have different values and attitudes to monogamy and infidelity and other vital, central things which change over time. I think it's important to remember that.

I am very wary of people who claim to have simple answers. People who don't recognise that we're all massively morally inconsistent don't really have any insights worth hearing. I think victims of infidelity on this forum constantly hear how their cheating partners are just scumbags, when the truth is that they're actually just normal people who've done a scummy thing. Judge that behaviour, sure. But there's no call to write them off entirely.

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FolkGirl · 14/12/2014 16:30

Actually I'm finding what you say increasingly offensive. Most of us do our utmost to protect the children from their faithless parent's behaviour.

When my exh had an affair, he gave the children gifts from her after I'd kicked him out to show them she was a lovely person. He also thought it was important that they met her so that they could see how happy he was with her because, he said, if they could see how happy he was they'd understand why he'd done it. Oh and we have a tiny family and he thought it would be good for them to have "another adult who cares about them as we do". I didn't tell them he had an affair. The eldest guessed and he made no effort to hide it.

That's the reality if the person who has affairs. Selfish behaviour that's all about them. No one else matters.

And despite that, and more, I did my best to manage it amicably for the children. We are spending our 3rd post split Christmas together and the ow is now long gone.

Frankly, you have no idea what you are talking about.

jorro · 14/12/2014 16:31

I don't mind: I'm married and (as far as I know!) there aren't any affairs going on.

I'm a bit clinical sometimes, I guess, but that's mostly a result of being a naturally quite emotional person who has deliberately spent years trying not to trust my emotions too much after being led up so many blind alleys by them.

Nothing is more important than my kids, and I know that I would be able to keep my own emotions in check to protect them. Years of long practice! In the horrible event that my partner cheated (and I have been through that in previous relationships, pre-kids) I'd do my damnedest not to involve them in the blame and recrimination. Protecting them would be more than enough motivation to shelve my own pain in order to work with my partner to still be parents, I think.

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jorro · 14/12/2014 16:33

Wow, FolkGirl, I'm sorry you're offended. I'll shut up now, I just thought it and felt like it wasn't often said. Didn't mean to cause any hurt.

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alphabook · 14/12/2014 16:35

Your logic seems to be "affairs don't affect the children because the hurt party should control their emotions". Why is the onus on the hurt party to do the right thing and behave in the right way? If my DH cheated on me I would be devastated, and I can't imagine I would be able to just put on a brave face and pretend nothing has happened. Why should I?

jorro · 14/12/2014 16:35

(And of course I know most parents do their utmost to prioritise their kids, but some do indulge their own feelings at their kids expense, which isn't a million miles from what the cheat did. I'm sure nobody here would though, and don't want to offend, so I really will shut up now.)

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jorro · 14/12/2014 16:36

Ok, I can see I'm explaining myself increasingly badly and have no wish to upset anyone. Sorry if anyone is offended: I quite understand but I promise it wasn't meant. Over and out.)

OP posts:
jorro · 14/12/2014 16:36

Ok, I can see I'm explaining myself increasingly badly and have no wish to upset anyone. Sorry if anyone is offended: I quite understand but I promise it wasn't meant. Over and out.)

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FolkGirl · 14/12/2014 16:36

Oh and my exh wasn't a serial cheater. It was a one off and out of character.

The children still love him and have agood relationship with him, butmy son doesn't respect him and I live with my daughter's abandonment fears every day.

And he did that.

Vivacia · 14/12/2014 16:37

I don't get it. You've come on here to tell people that life is complicated? It's exactly at complicated times that you need straight, clear advice that cuts through the bullshit.

holdyourown · 14/12/2014 16:37

jorro I think most people on here do try to do that anyway. It's not always easy and you get no recognition for it. I hope you're never in that position, it's an incredibly hard and painful thing to go through and certainly rates as one of the very worst times in my life. The aftermath affects the dcs for life irrespective of how careful caring and selfless the betrayed spouse is.

Joysmum · 14/12/2014 16:38

There is no need for a child to know that one of their parents has had an affair; if there is a split, that reason doesn't need to be explained

Which means not only is the person who had the affair a liar and a cheat, the partner cheated on is expected to lie to the children by omission.

Who exactly can children trust if not their own parents?

alphabook · 14/12/2014 16:39

Windy is spot on - kids are perceptive and they will notice mummy/daddy's puffy eyes and forced smile.

alphabook · 14/12/2014 16:42

Ultimately I have a lot more empathy for people who do the wrong thing because their heart is broken, as apposed to those who do the wrong thing just because they can. Sorry if that's too black and white for you...

AsleepOnTheHay · 14/12/2014 16:43

What crap. I agree with folkgirl, you are increasingly offensive.

Most cheated-upon people are unable to put on enough of a facade to protect their children from the truth. And what about the small matter of er, in your face reminders, like - dad isn't actually there any more? Or mum having no money and having pull children out of the afterschool club and give up work.

I suggest you STFU about keeping your emotions in check and other claptrap ('work with my partner' yeah right bit difficult when he's in Florida with his mistress) until you actually know what you're talking about.

Windywenceslas · 14/12/2014 16:43

But jorro you can't control the emotions and actions of everyone in your children's lives. That's the problem.

I see it time and time again here where cheated on partners jump through hoops to protect their children from the facts, but their children end up finding out anyway and it must be added agony for the cheated on partner to see their children hurting, whilst having to not project their own emotions onto the child.

My own experience of being a child in this situation was that overnight I had a new step parent and a "helpful" grandmother told my DSis and I all the sordid details so that we could "make the right decision about who to live with". No protection for us.

As is happens we chose to live with my DM, who had the affair. She was one who used an affair to escape a marriage with a deeply flawed individual (my DF). She isn't a bad person, she's a fabulous person, but her behaviour on this front was appalling, I stand by that, and it affected me profoundly. She should have, and could have done better by her children.

FolkGirl · 14/12/2014 16:44

Oh and wgen your whole wirld has come crashing down around your ears keeping your emotioms in check is a fantasy.

I did my best. I didn't use the children as weapons, I facilitated contact, we spent the first Christmas together only 7 weeks after the split.

But I wasn't on the ball or functioning properly because that's what it does to you.

It makes it very difficult for the remaining parent to be a good parent, too, because it's so utterly devastating. Even when you're doing your best, you're not doing enough.

overslept · 14/12/2014 16:48

jorro I actually agree with you, in that somebody cannot be accused of being a bad parent (or bad anything else) because they failed at being a good partner. I also agree that a lot of people project their hurt to their children with the thoughts of "how could he do this to us" when really they mean "how could he do this to me". Affairs hurt, badly, you won't have popular opinions here because you can't argue against emotion with logic, and many of the posters here have been through the pain of a cheating partner first hand.

bathshebaeverbusy · 14/12/2014 16:51

I'm with you Joysmum. If you are the cheated on partner, everything you held precious and dear is undermined and tainted as is your past and future and that of your children. It is soul destroying to protect / defend the cheating partner. One day, the children will want to know exactly what went wrong and fornow I just say to my children that Daddy broke his promises and didn't tell the truth to me. Covering it up is counter productive.

Windywenceslas · 14/12/2014 16:52

Folkgirl - you do your best and that's what counts in the end.

jorro · 14/12/2014 16:52

You're right, overslept - I should've considered the feelings of some people who've been through it before posting some of the above. Sometimes it's better I keep my opinions to myself! It's just you see so much of the opposite that I wanted some balance. Sorry to anyone I inadvertently upset: it was insensitive of me.

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FolkGirl · 14/12/2014 16:57

Just so we are clear...

I didn't project my emotions onto the children. My mother did that and I was determined not to.

The impact on my children was because of their father's behaviour. Not how I reacted to it.

Patchworkqueen · 14/12/2014 16:58

How are you meant to 'work with a partner' who refuses to answer the phone, an email or bother to see his children. Would love to know your answer to that one?

My ex vanished and if he did contact us it was to lie. He has bothered with contact less than 6 times in 3 years, and that is his own fault. But heck, maybe I should work with him better eh? Gosh, why didn't I think of that?

FolkGirl · 14/12/2014 16:59

I know it wasn't intentional. It's just impossible to imagine what it is like until it actually happens.

holdyourown · 14/12/2014 16:59

overslept I disagree with you that most people behave like that. I reckon most go to great lengths to reassure dcs it's not their fault or anything they've done. Aside from trying to take in that the person they trusted and loved has done this to them, the cheated on spouse/parent also has to cope with their beloved dcs no longer having the family unit, crying at night for the parent who's left and trying to come to terms with everything. Therefore it generally doesn't make the cheating spouse seem a good person or good parent, despite their other potential good points.

ManhattanSunset · 14/12/2014 19:27

Nothing is more important than my kids, and I know that I would be able to keep my own emotions in check to protect them.

Exactly. You're saying it yourself... A cheating partner isn't willing to (learn to) keep his emotions in check, even FOR THE SAKE of their kids.

This makes him/her a bad parent, even though they might be a fun parent at times or a good provider .. fundamentally this person is a terrible and selfish parent and not able or willing to just pull themselves together.

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