Relationship with my Dad, Any suggestions. (Bit of a long one)

[TheHermitCrab]

I'm in my late 20s and in my third trimester of pregnancy, I've currently been thinking a lot about my relationship with my father and his attitude towards me in general. I'm going to TRY and not make this too long by bullet pointing everything, and then just answering questions in more depth if asked.

Basically I want to know if there is any way of solving this... or if I have to just accept that he's going to treat me the same way forever.

• I've never had a close relationship with my dad. Lived with both my mum and dad until the age of 18, but never had a hug, kiss, "I love you" or any kind of father/daughter relationship or conversation with my dad. I just accept he's old fashioned that way.

• My mum died when I was 19 - I moved back in with my dad for just under a year, but we clashed so much I left as soon as possible.

• My dad seems to see me as a constant trial, problem, disappointment and holds some kind of passive aggressive disdain for me that I can't seem to get to the bottom of. (I was a very well behaved child, never rebelled, good at school, bit of a geek, didn't go off the rails)

• Despite his seemingly constant dislike of me. He does help me whenever I ask for it. I.E giving me lifts when my pregnancy has made me poorly, helping me pick up shopping..etc and whatnot as I don't drive. And the odd DIY job. BUT whenever he does do these helpful things, he likes to make a point about how I can't do them myself (even if I can, and he's offered the help himself)

(just as a short example, I borrowed some tools to do a DIY job, he constantly insisted I was doing it wrong/not his way, constantly tried to do it for me, and has been jibing about how it's going to break ever since I successfully completed it, but If i gave in and let him do the job he would have endless sighed and complained I should know how to do these things...etc)

• Whenever there is something wrong with me he tells me about how "I'm just the same as my mum" who died due to health complications (completely unrelated to anything I have had)

• He ignores everything I ever say, never responds or enthuses, yet will talk for hours about his achievements, what he can do better than me or various other people, constantly putting myself or others down. And has a negative twist on anything I pursue. I.E I have worked full time since the age of 16 - and I started doing an evening degree a couple of years ago, he constantly put down what a waste of time anything like that was, and how my older sibling "didn't bother" with uni because he was more clever than the tutors at college. I was top of my class for everything, but I never even bothered going to my own graduation because he managed to convince me it wasn't worth it when I got sent the invite. It really got to me when I saw how all the other adult students parents and family were so happy and vocal about their achievements on facebook and in person..etc

• I have an older male sibling who is not treated like this at all.

• He remembers everything about my sibling's childhood, school, achievements...etc, but if I ask anything he says "I don't know, can't remember!"

• I've always just accepted it as being "The way my dad is" Although many of my friends, from being primary school age, up until now, always say how my dad is always "grumpy" or "scary" as they always only ever saw him with me.

• My partner has always had the same opinion as me despite me never saying any of the above in much detail. Such as "Why does your dad argue with everything you say" or when my dad has put something down about me or gotten angry he will say later "Don't worry about that, or what he says, you know what he's like"

• When he met my partners family he would talk a LOT about my sibling, but said nothing about me... (I'm so used to that it was my partner that pointed it out not me). But my partner's family said what a "lovely" man he was and that he is so different to what myself/partner had described. Although all he talks about to other people is himself, and has no interest in what others have done or achieved, and will always turn the conversation back to him, or what he's done. He is a very talented handy man, and I regularly show off his work to others (even though the compliments are never returned)

The word "narcissist" has been said before (not by me)... but I don't know if that's just too far.

I've kept it to myself for such a long time, because I feel guilty even saying negative about my parent. Especially when he has helped me so much day to day and sometimes financially... But I really have no self confidence anymore, and feel like I've been led into feeling I can't make anything of myself... and now I'm angry I've let somebody else's attitude towards me stunt how I react to things for all these years.

Am I fighting a losing battle trying to bond with someone who seems to dislike me so much for no reason?....

(I'm so sorry this was such a long post!!)

Separate his dislike (which might be genuine) from your oppression (which comes across clearly) and you have a much shorter problem. Your dad doesn't meet your dad-needs. Get counselling to help you cope with that, and continue to accept his help even if he's a pain in the bum about it. He's showing you that he loves you, in the way he is comfortable with.

I'm not denying you have problem, but you have starting points for improvement a) you've identified it and acknowledged it, and b) you are still in contact.

How is he with other females? He might think they're generally inferior to men. Maybe you do remind him of your mum and that's not comfortable for him.

I think he feels threatened by your capability and determination - his comments about the degree are typical of what women hear from uneducated husbands and fathers who think they're 'getting above themselves'.

Parents are people, they have faults. I deal with my parents faults by compartmentalising - who they were when I was a child is not who they were in later life. Its easier to cope on a daily basis with my dad (mum died) if I don't think about how he used to be.

Hi Patronising.

It's definitely been the same all my life, in fact he's probably been "softer" since my mum died, in terms of the fact I'd have been told to sod off if I asked for a lift back then lol. My mum acknowledged his attitude towards me and did tell me how it upset her how we were constantly "at blows"

It's definitely not had much change at all from child to adult, I've always had the same niggling feeling about him not liking me at all. I know he loves me, I'm his daughter... but I really feel he just doesn't like me at all as a person. (his choice I guess)

We do argue, i.e. shout, but nothing long lasting, few minutes if that, it's more passive and snapping with me, or just completely ignores me and pretends I haven't spoke at all. (whether I'm saying something positive or negative)

As you've said, we are in contact, not estranged, and I get on with everything without really drawing attention to the issue. It's probably more pronounced recently because my partner has a huge, involved, loving family and especially now with a baby on the way they are making a fuss of me, which is lovely, but just highlights to me more how I've never had that from my side of the family. (not that I'm saying I should be given attention) The only two things my dad said about my pregnancy was when I announced it "Well now you're really going to struggle", and when I was Ill last month "You're not going to make it to your maternity leave"... that's been the whole contribution.

You may be onto something with the old fashioned views of women? He doesn't really have many women in his life, we are a small family only a few of us, but my mum suffered from severe depression, had no self esteem, and no self worth, so I can't really say how he would have reacted to her had she been a tougher cookie, I don't think my brother's wife gets on with him very well, she's always short with him, I always stick up for him over it but maybe he treats her with the same disdain? lol.

My partner thinks I try too hard to be nice to him and do too much to help him that is just thrown back at me.

Maybe he's right and it's my problem that I just have to draw a line under...

Am I fighting a losing battle trying to bond with someone who seems to dislike me so much for no reason?....

He dislikes you for a reason but it is nothing directly to do with you. It will be something about his childhood, how he was treated (was he a second child?), or how his sister was treated, or how his sister treated him, or how his mother was treated, either by her dH or by her family (possibly like he treats you??).

He married someone with 'no self-esteem, and no self worth' - have you wondered why? Or did she go through a personality change after marriage? Very unlikely.

What relatives are still alive, can you speak to them eg his sister, and glean a bit of info about his childhood. It might reveal some interesting truths.

I don't know how to change someone's ingrained behavior but if you can see the reason why he is like he is (and understand that it isn't about you) then it is less upsetting for you to deal with, you can shrug and let it go.

Hi Dozie,

He has one sibling, a brother who is unfortunately disabled and has mental problems due to a motorbike accident as an adult. He still gets around and lives on his own but I would't get any sense out of him!

His mum (my grandma) is the only other relative to him, she's in her 90s, still independent, a stubborn old goat who argues with everyone about everything, and is known to cut people off for years at a time (just like him!... hmm a pattern)

My mums side - there's a couple of family members I know of, but wouldn't know how to contact. We are not a family kind of family... if you know what I mean??? I'm the black sheep as the only one who craves some kind of family togetherness but nobody else seems to care. Anyone who gets in touch about family trees and whatnot I am the only person who responds and investigates... very passive lot my family are.

My mum prior to marriage - no idea, but she didn't have a happy childhood at all, and married at 18, so I would hazard a guess that depression and self worth issues have always been part of her life (but increased as she got older and especially as her physical health failed).

I guess I know it isn't about me.. but I get the brunt of it. And trying to be constantly nice to him, while he is constantly putting me down, twisting everything into a negative and wanting to argue and prove a point about absolutely nothing constantly is so draining... but I don't want to just "leave him to it" because he's on his own...

It's so frustrating.

Do get help for your feelings, though. You are entitled to be as happy as you can, even if you can't change him.

Thanks! I suppose it is my problem to accept, even if I'm not being the difficult one lol, worth it than dwelling on it...

I am always recommending the Dance of Anger, by Harriet Lerner, as a book with advice on relationships. There might be something in it that you find helpful though not directly about your situation. V cheap secondhand I should think.

And being pregnant makes you think a lot about families and to wish for a happy family life for your DC. But DC just accept how things are so there's no need to try to fix everything for them.

Ooops, was dozie, now Halloween namechanged to this.

Have you read up on NPD to see if any of that resonates with regards to your dad?. You likely still cannot get what you need from him.

Ultimately such people are not going to change and changing his behaviour is not going to happen. He is not going to ever apologise or even take any responsibility for his own actions.

I would think about reinforcing your own boundaries with regards to your dad.

Its interesting that other people have used the word narcissist with regards to him. I was also going to use the word narcissist with regards to your Dad because they often have the golden child/scapegoat dynamic going on. People from dysfunctional families often play out roles and yours is the scapegoat for his inherent ills. Your brother is the golden child who can do no wrong, a role also not without price but your brother is likely to be unaware of that. Your late mother was his buffer and when she died your dad was fully unleashed.

Am glad to read that your partner now is supportive; you will certainly need him to be.

It is NOT your fault your father is the way he is; his own birth family unleashed that lot of damage on him. His parents were likely of a similar nature themselves; this sort of dysfunction can go down the generations.

I would seriously consider limiting all access to your as yet unborn child. Do not ever leave your child alone with him. If he cannot or will not behave decently then he gets to see none of you. If he was not a good parent to you and he clearly was not, it will be the same deal for your child. If he is to your mind a narcissist, such people tend to either over-value or under-value the relationship with the grandchild.

Could you say 'did you mean to sound so rude' or 'why are you always so negative'

You could challenge his behaviour by saying those sort if statements in a gentle non confrontational way.

I know it can be rubbish when others have a great family set up but sadly we can't choose our family!

All you can take from this is that you would never do it to your own children!

So do you think he favours your other sibling?

I am not feeling particularly sorry for your Dad here. Such people are likely to be on their own for good reason; they cannot and will not behave around others and blame everyone else but themselves for their own shortcomings. You've been his scapegoat your entire life here.

I note without surprise also that his mother is stubborn and cuts people off at the drop of a hat, she taught him a lot of damaging stuff when he was growing up. That is how emotionally unhealthy and dysfunctional people behave.

Do consider posting on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread as well.

Attila,

Thanks for the response, I don't know much about narcissism and when they word was mentioned I did look it up, a lot of which seemed to resonate, and other things which seemed a bit "extreme" but obviously there will be a sliding scale like with any personality, but I definitely see the traces of it there, when I read about it. But I'd never had described him as one myself. More self absorbed, grumpy, and self important" But I guess those traits are part of it...

I think you're right about his own upbringing and the way it will have reflected on his own parenting. The golden child thing is definitely there, I used to think I was paranoid, until my partner said it without any prompt from me... and I started to realize I wasn't as mental and insecure as I thought! lol. My brother does describe my dad as stubborn, and set in his ways, so obviously does see some of the same parts of his personality as me. My brother is very intelligent, successful, much older than me and very quiet, so was never really a challenge as a child and was very intelligent (too intelligent for the teachers I have been told (or adult!) He'll deny it, he's modest :)

My partner is brilliant through it all. Very strange situation for him to see a family member (especially parent) act that way as the relationship with his parents, and his large family is a completely different world. But he's done really well to be a great guy with my dad and they get on fine when put together. When my dad comes to family gatherings on my partners side he rarely communicates with me, and definitely doesn't snap or get made at me in front of others like he does when people aren't around.

As for my child, I would never dream of restricting access - my brother has children, all of which my dad isn't necessarily doting towards, but is nice nonetheless. Him and my mum never babysat when she was around, and as they are older and my mum isn't there, he hasn't really done anything with them in terms of taking them anywhere or doing anything with them, but I don't know whether that's because he's never been asked (and the grandma on the other side of the family lives near them and has a much closer relationship) or whether he's just not interested. I want my daughter to be involved as much as possible with my side of the family just because it is so small, and it was always so lacking for me not knowing who anyone was.

Quitelikely

Could you say 'did you mean to sound so rude' or 'why are you always so negative'

If he makes a snide or negative remark i.e. when he said that I "won't last until maternity" Because I was ill off work for one day. I said "I'm just ill, why be so negative? I'll be fine" and his reaction was to just get angry at me and claim he wasn't being negative.

Or if I tell him a whole story, just for him to not say a word back I'll say "did you hear that?" and he'll just say "yeh..." and then that's that. lol.

I do think he favors my other sibling, but for a long time I put it down to my own negative thoughts and insecurities. Until my partner's parents were talking about him to my dad, you know, the typical embarrassing baby things, and learning how to ride a bike...etc" and my dad responded with all the same stuff.. but about my brother. To which I just said nicely... "how did I learn to ride I can't remember?" and he just said "oh I don't know".
Doesn't know what nursery I went to, what school trips he accompanied me to (my mum didn't like going to them), my "firsts" or any of that.

I remember all the little stories about my brother that my brother probably doesn't remember himself that I've heard being told.

Afterwards at home my partner said "That was strange... he was just going on about your brother and said nothing about you" My response was "Yeah.. doesn't remember much about me" and I just shrugged it off. But I guess it bothered me more than I let on, because here I am! haha.

I don't have any negativity towards my brother in all this, never have, he's a great guy and always had a brilliant relationship with him when I was growing up, can't fault him! :)

Thanks for the suggestion about the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread, it always seems so full and daunting! but I think I will have a read through it :)

HI TheHermitCrab

"As for my child, I would never dream of restricting access - my brother has children, all of which my dad isn't necessarily doting towards, but is nice nonetheless. Him and my mum never babysat when she was around, and as they are older and my mum isn't there, he hasn't really done anything with them in terms of taking them anywhere or doing anything with them, but I don't know whether that's because he's never been asked (and the grandma on the other side of the family lives near them and has a much closer relationship) or whether he's just not interested. I want my daughter to be involved as much as possible with my side of the family just because it is so small, and it was always so lacking for me not knowing who anyone was".

Have you actually seen your dad interact with your brothers children and more than once?. Its painful to watch a narcissist interact with grandchildren precisely because there is no interaction. It is like watching a repeat of a tv show you've always hated. It may well be that his children do not have much if any sort of a relationship with them mainly due to their own lack of interest in anyone other than themselves.

I cannot empathise enough their complete lack of empathy either.

I can certainly see why you are thinking like this because you so want your child to have a "normal" healthy grandparent type relationship but what you want and what I think you will receive are two very different things. (I have narcissistic relatives and what you describe above is very familiar).

Do not operate from a fearful mindset here. If your man's parents are nice and emotionally healthy, concentrate on these people instead. Gratitude is a good antidote to loss. Your child does not need or warrant constantly negative and closed role models like your dad who may well go onto not be above using your child against you.

I would think very very carefully about what sort of relationship your child will actually have with his/her granddad going forward. He was not a good parent to you as a child so it is extremely likely that he will be similarly disinterested as a grandparent. Narcissists do make for being deplorably bad grandparents, I know that all too well. From the little you write above I think he will become more disinterested in your child and perhaps even use said child to criticise your parenting. His "help" to date to yourself has been the barest of minimums. As mentioned before, such people either over value or under value the relationship with the grandchild.

Oh dear . This all sounds a bit familiar. My dad is quite similar. I recently realised that there are hardly any pictures of me and DS together, as me and my dad are the ones who take the photos in our family, and of course I can't take pictures of myself, and my dad doesn't really consider me a worthwhile subject for a photo .

Recently, I've started to challenge my dad on the little things he comes out with, and not gently- for example, if he criticises my cooking (as he invariably does), I'll say: "Could you ever find something nice to say about my cooking?" This works for me, as we've always been a very emotionally repressed, passive aggressive family, so just speaking out feels very liberating- and shuts him up!

For my dad, and I suspect yours, there is definitely a contempt of women at the heart of it. My dad quite frequently has made quite shocking comments regarding young girls, especially with all the famous paedophile / sexual abuser revelations there have been in recent years.

A sentence of mine below should state this instead:-

"It may well be that his children do not have much if any sort of a relationship with their grandad because they have learnt that their granddad is not at all bothered".

Attila,

I can see you have a much stronger grip on the situation than I am capable of. I feel so bad for even writing what I'm writing... like I'm kicking someone in the teeth for trying their best.

He's given me a lot in terms of financial support, DIY, decorating, you know, "dad" stuff! lol, If I ask him to do something, he will do it (even through gritted teeth).

But I know that it doesn't replace the emotional problems that having him around so much are causing me. It really kicks my self esteem. I have had good times with him, and I do try and "force" him to do things with my partner or come round for tea when he doesn't want to, so I'm probably making my own situation worse!)

But sometimes I get the feeling he enjoys helping, because it shows how much I need the help, therefore showing I'm not capable.... (I know that makes me sound utterly paranoid! it's one of those "you have to be there" things to get what I mean)

I haven't really seen him do much with his grandchildren no, but then neither have I with them, I do more with children in my friends and partner's family than my own... so I don't know if it's all down to him or just an attitude ingrained in my side of the family! :/

StubbornStains - seems we are in the same boat!!

Although my dad has never made an anti female comments, he doesn't comment on much that doesn't involve him or anything that isn't complaining about other people being so bloody stupid, I can see he would probably have pretty typical stone age views!

"Do things with me and my partner" that should read...