"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Tale i'm hungover, which isn't helping, as i'm feeling physically sick at the cruelty of these supposed people towards you.

how dare they?

please find the strength to leave them behind and refuse to engage with them for another second.

you, you H, your children will be better off without them. (understatement)

I am very sorry tale but no, from what you say I can't see any hope of them changing. Having said that, I'm on line and don't know you or them irl and could be wrong. But the signs are not good - that your sister is starting to drive some of it is a very bad sign in fact.

When you're surrounded by toxic people, some people find it rubs off. Otherwise pleasant folk can be sucked into behaving the same. it's how it perpetrates down the generations ... unless the children are strong and self-aware enough to leave and break the pattern. It's not as common as all that that they do.

About her dying. Is there any chance of you getting some skilled therapy now rather than later?

I think actually that it would be quite helpful in looking at your whole life and coming to some realisations and also to terms with some things. You could also talk about the time when she dies and your feelings around it and how you will cope.

Again, the incidents you are saying are quite shocking, mainly becuase it's clearly a pattern. On top of that you have her choosing restaurants you can't eat at and then blaming you. This is actively destructive.

I agree with the others, Taletastic. I think some therapy would help and I think really cutting down on your exposure to your horribly toxic family is vital. They sound really bad for your mental health.

Speaking of mental health, can I just jump in with a little self indulgent post?
I mentioned before about feeling quite overwhelmed with it all this week, couldn't stop thinking about it all. I've been working really hard on switching my brain off and Sunday and yesterday were much better, but dreamt about it all last night and felt really low again this morning. Feel like I'm having to work hard to squash that feeling. It could be pmt I suppose, but probably not for an entire week. I have a session tomorrow so will talk about it, but at the moment it feels like a real effort not to just go and get back in bed. I'm tired and feel like I'm having to force myself not to just lie on the sofa and let me brain churn. Feel much, much better in the evenings.

Just been offered a translation which will keep me busy for the next few days, which will help. Feel like I actively have to distract myself...having the tv on in the background helps.

Sometimes I can forget about it for a few hours and feel fine but in the mornings I feel really down and lethargic.

Hmmm. I know very well how it is when something haunts you like this. It's a hag riding on your back sucking the energy out of you isn't it.

might any of these ideas help?

• actively give yourself a certain amount of time each day to think about her and be sad / angry / dispirited / upset about it all. 15 mins, half an hour, whatever you need. Or twice a day. The point is, a set time where you give it head-space. The rest of the time when the thoughts come, take note and then let them wait til that set time

• Give yoruself time, too, to sit on the bed or the sofa and be lethargic (might overlap with the thinking-about-her time!).

• I do think you have to give the thoughts some time rather than suppress them completely. Things like that have a tendancy to come back over and over again.

• if you're dreaming of it too, your mind is actively trying to process the whole thing.

What you're going through now sounds like a grief process, though it's not quite the same. It might take quite a few months for these thoughts to quieten down. I suspect you have to actually give them that time and then gradually they will come to hijack you less. I know for myself that if something upsets me to the haunted point, it simply takes time til gradually I adjust. Unpleasant, it is, too. But it does pass until the thoughts are more the odd strand here and there rahter than a blinding cloud that holds you up badly.

You had years under her constricting influence. Don't expect too much too fast in your journey to freedom. It's only been 2 months.

"Do you really think there is no hope then? She was awful to me when I had PND and we didn't speak for a year, then I thought things improved. She can be nice obviously but she's an alcoholic and I'm worried she might die soon. I'm not sure how I would feel if I didn't get to say goodbye".

Like all abusers they can do nice/nasty very well but its all part of a continuous cycle.

No Tale, the only way forward in your case with your dysfunctional family of origin is to go no contact with them. You have been their scapegoat for their inherent ills and continue to be so. If you find them too toxic or difficult for you to deal with, its the self same deal for your children as well. You need to protect them from such malign influences.

I would look into getting skilled therapy now rather than when she dies. This is an important point to make because I really do not want you feeling as conflicted as my DH is currently being because his emotionally absent non Disney dad of a father figure is also dying.

I would also suggest you contact Al-anon re your alcoholic mother as co-dependency feelings often surface within such relationships. They are also very good at working with family members of problem drinkers. Also alcoholics are really the most selfish people on the planet, I would not be worrying too much about her although that is far easier said than done also because she has never given you any consideration whatsoever.

Thanks Meerka. I think maybe as mornings are worse I'll try to limit myself to thinking about it until I've got the kids to school and then try to "shut the box" so to speak and do something distracting. This week I've hopefully got the translation (waiting for confirmation) and then next week I think I'm going to try to swim in the mornings before I teach, so twice a week. I think some physical exercise would help.
Maybe will try to clear out the roof space a bit as I find order and tidiness helps too.
I know I need to give it time. I think once she's up and gone it will be easier too.
Thanks for the post, you've made me feel a lot better. Are you still feeling calmer since your holiday? I hope all your churning is subsiding too. xx

If I may discuss my own situation here for a mo:-

One of DHs friends (whose father is now deceased) has had a very similar non relationship with his own (also emotionally absent) father and DH has found it very useful to talk to him. He is coping with this in his own way but I feel he has a heck of a long way to go. I am ok as far as it goes. I have made some allowances here for DH and people do grieve very differently but I have told him what I think and that has not always gone down well!. I think he is grieving somewhat for a relationship that he did not have. He did though say to me that he felt his father could have done a lot more so that is progress of sorts.

I am a bit further along than he is in this whole process and not just because he is not my Dad. He's never been anything of a FIL to me (gosh the memories I have of this man are mainly cringeworthy in nature) and he has not even been much if anything of a grandfather to DS. I do not like the way he has treated other people that I love and care very deeply about. He has provided me with an abject lesson i.e. how not to behave towards others and that is what I will take away from all this going forward.

Thoughts always are welcomed. It does me a power a good to write it all down here.

Just place marking again, not up to posting atm, run-up to Christmas not helping too I think

Atilla Gosh yes how conflicting for your DH. I guess it is something that all of us who are NC will have to face one day. I feel that personally it was just 'another' process I had to go through (coming to terms with the fact that this will one day happen and releasing myself of the guilt) but I guess that you can never really prepare yourself for a toxic parent dying.

As with anyone dying, you always seem to remember the good rather than the bad as that is what we are conditioned to do "don't speak ill of the dead" and all that.

As for you Atilla I guess all you can do is support DH through this. I have a friend who was outwardly happy when her vile FIL died but hopefully she managed to not show her DH just how happy she was on his fathers passing.
I don't think it's unreasonable of you to (gently) remind your DH of the character of FIL and not to supress your feelings whatever they are. You can't suddenly start pretending just because he is dying.

As for your DH grieving for the relationship he never had.....I think this is natural tbh. I have come to terms with the fact that I am just one of those people who weren't born to have 'proper parents' but every now and then it will just get me especially when I feel like I need a bit of support and not just from DH (especially now we live next door to the inlaws but that's another story).

Thank you mampam

I've done a fair amount of reading found this excerpt online. The following has helped me a lot as well:-

"I know a couple people who had difficult relationships with cold or mean parents, and when those parents reached the end of their lives, their kids felt a sense of urgency to get back in touch or reconnect in some meaningful way, and later felt guilt or regret at not having been able to "fix" the relationship when their cold or mean parents didn't reciprocate. Nevermind that the parent had done most (if not all) of the damage, and had been deeply and repeatedly unkind to their child throughout his/her growing up and adult years. From an outside perspective, I just wish there were a way to reassure these people that their parents made adult choices, and that the damaged relationship was part of those choices--that it is a very sad situation, but not a reflection of failure or wrongdoing on the child's part".

Yes, yes, yes this is a fantastic excerpt Atilla The parents do make adult choices and I think it is most definitely a testament to the character of the children left behind that they do feel guilty or have feelings of wrongdoing as it shows that they are a million miles away from the character of their parents.

These mean/cold parents bring beautiful children into the world and through their own choice damage them through whatever means.

One thing I will never understand about my own mother/family and others like them is how you could fall out with your child so badly that they never want to have anything to do with you again without trying to do all you can to make it right.

This popped up on Facebook of all places and thought it is very relevant to this thread:

good that sounds reasonable, once she's gone it will help take the edge of it all. It will still take time tho.

Do keep half an eye on the possibility of depression. Some of what you're describing are also depressive symptoms though at a guess, you're not depressed ... but it is worth keeping an eye on to make sure you don't slide into it. I'm not sure your mother's listing of the symptoms of depression is all that reliable; a trained outside medico would be better, if you think you're sliding that way.

atilla it's got to be so difficult for your husband. Along the lines of your except, it struck me strongly that your husband could do everything under the sun and it would still take two to have had a relationship. If his father wasn't interested, he wasn't interested. Nothing you can do can force someone else's interest. Then all you're left with is feeling sad and somehow inadequate and guilty (hopefully Im not projecting here).

What is reassuring is how many people do come out ok on the other side of awful home situations.

Somethign you said resonated for me: He has provided me with an abject lesson i.e. how not to behave towards others and that is what I will take away from all this going forward. I feel the same. Other than my lovely adoptive mum, most of what I've learned from my collection of parents is Things Not To Do. Still working on some of them mind you.

Has yoru husband read any of the helpful books? Is he ready to or is that something he would rather not do?

mampam how are you doing now? with the preg and with your living circumstances?

Hi Meerka and

No you are not projecting at all, that is my impression too. It is so difficult for DH, easier for me because I can detach more from all this. I am at peace with my own self. I think we will come out of this ok in the end, perhaps a bit battle scarred but ok. Hope springs eternal!!.

I sincerely hope his friend who has had a very similar non relationship with his own emotional cold fish of a father can help DH going forward as well.

Indeed my fear here is that DH is trying to somehow create memories, something tangible that he can remember his dad by. I think DH feels that the past is the past and he wants to draw a line under it all. He is far more forgiving that I would ever be in the circumstances. His (narcissistic) dad is really a blank canvass and my own memories of this man going forward are not great. I can tell you with utmost certainty that if either of them had been my parents, I would have cut them off years ago!.

DH is going to his parents house at the weekend so he can ask his dad about his family tree (most of that is known and is v boring) along with talking to his mother about how they go forward (P of A etc and I do not think he or in particular his mother wants me to hear about all that). She is very adept at withholding information because that gives her power and control. God only knows what crap she could fill his head with, she could well do the "poor me" act. He really cannot see much if anything wrong with her (due to inbuilt conditioning) at all even when she says to him at their house, "come and sit down on your chair". I am usually ignored by her when we do visit (which is also something I will need to discuss with him yet again at some point). I sat down on "his" chair last visit and I could see she did not like it!. I don't honestly think that he notices any of it. She has a great deal to answer for to my mind. Then we have the thorny issue of his brother (who does not speak to us as he is also a nasty narcissist) who still lives there!.

Would he read the books, I doubt it and also because I do not think he is even now wanting to fully acknowledge this. I have always said that his dad had a choice in how to behave and that he could have done more. I know that his own late father (infact that whole family) was dysfunctional as well (emotionally absent, see the pattern here) so that never helped matters either.

Its so cathartic writing all this down.

Thoughts always are welcomed.

Hi Meerka I'm booked in for an ELCS next Friday (14th) and it cannot come quick enough! (had enough of this awful pregnancy).
Living circumstances........well for now, (maybe it's just my hormones and the stage of pregnancy I am at) I just have to accept the inlaws for what they are and not expect anything more or less from them.
I accept that they are:

Liars
Deliberately set out to upset/annoy myself and DH
They are strange
They contradict themselves constantly
MIL has more up and downs than a yoyo
FIL is self centred
FIL has a problem with alcohol
FIL likes to belittle DH to make himself feel like a 'big man'

Just an example of how 'strange' they are, the other day we got invited to dinner at our friends house, they live in the village a 2 minute drive away, we live on the outskirts. DD 15 was out at her friends so we asked the inlaws to babysit. Yes they would but they won't come to our house, the kids have to go to their house (this is always the case). We live next door to them for goodness sake and our youngest is 4 years old so will need putting to bed.

They also frightened youngest DD about witches on Halloween. I had to go to the hospital to have the baby monitored for reduced movement, DD1 was busy getting ready for a Halloween/Birthday party she was having at our house that eve so IL's looked after DD2. By the time DH and I got home it was dark and DD2 was absolutely petrified to walk the 20 steps or so back to our house whilst holding my hand. She then spent most of that night in bed with us saying "granddad said such a such a thing about witches"......

FIL obviously did not take heed when he and DH had their last massive row about boundaries. Last week DH was at work and FIL had arranged for a plumber to come to connect our central heating in our extension. To cut a long story short I would have expected FIL to let me know that he plumber had arrived, no the first I knew about it was when FIL was in our kitchen complaining that he and the plumber had been upstairs trying to get into our bedroom but couldn't as there was something obstructing the doorway as was expecting me to go up and get it shifted. I said I couldn't as it was too heavy (I am nearly 9 months pregnant) so he just strolled through our house up the other way to our bedroom and shifted it himself without saying a word!!
What if I'd been getting dressed in my bedroom?? He just has no sense of boundary.

DH thinks once the extension is finished it will get better but I think FIL will find new ways of trying to control/exert his 'authority' onto us. I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Sorry that wasn't meant to be a massive post.

Hi everyone? I started a thread here about going NC and I've received fantastic advice and support and been encouraged to come and join you

I've decided that something I want to achieve is to be a good parent - in my sons' eyes, rather than mine because I'm damn sure my mother thinks she's in the running for an award - and to break this cycle. I don't want my kids to look back in twenty years and agree that I was a toxic bitch too.

Atilla You're not going to visit his parents are you? Although I would be tempted just to annoy them as getting your DH on his own without you so they can play their games is clearly what they would want.

hi - i'm just quickly marking my place - sorry.

(as in so i can find the thread later when i have time to read and post)

Hi mampam

Would firstly like to wish you all the very best with your ELCS next week .

I would keep yourselves as a family unit well away from these people as they simply cannot be trusted at all. You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, family are truly no different.

These people never ever take any notice of any boundaries you care to set them and neither do they have any sense at all of boundaries. They are both too mad, selfish and self absorbed to listen and take any notice of those.

I have a nasty feeling that once your extension is finished your FIL will find ways to further control you both again. Am so sorry to read that your ILs are so dysfunctional.

Will I visit ILs this weekend, I do not think so but I would like to go there because I am a part of this family I have never felt at all welcomed over there by MIL in particular) whether MIL likes it or not.

HI spiders and welcome. A lot of us here want to make sure we are WAY different from our parents. Being aware of that is a good start, but it's the first step and there are often quite a few more.

Can you link your thread? or give us some more details?

mampam, write away. You have said before but Im afraid my bird-brain has forgotten - will you ever be able to move away from living next door with them? it's a nightmare the situation you are in. Honestly, no matter the circumstances they should only be the absolute last line of childcare - emergency hospital sort of level. Your poor daughter :(

There's a SOLD sign up on my mother's house and she's just e mailed Dbro to ask him to ask me to put the set of keys I have in her postbox (on outer gate) as she's signing contracts today!

don't feel up for posting but glad i've marked my place so i know it's here if/when i do want to.

hope everyone is ok - stay sane in the face of others insanity or simple refusal to engage with reality.

ouf. Have a glass of wine tonight good. It's really real and soon she will no longer be near you.

Hope you're doing ok