"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Thanks Attila and Hissy and strength to all of you dealing with crappy family crap.

My family don't even know we're engaged, well guessed, they do not like my fiance. I really don't want to tell them, but I hate being dishonest. Sigh.

I'm toying with the idea of reducing contact at the moment, but I'm not ready I don't think. Both my parents have health issues (they're only in their 50s) and I am in the role of the one who looks after everyone and I am struggling with detaching any more without huge guilt. Plus my mum was a really good mum up until I hit my teens and some bad stuff happened to our family, and I lost her as the mum I knew, and now she's losing her memory and I am losing her again so I feel like cutting contact would be losing her completely and I'm not ready, even though I know she treats me badly. She is actually amazing with my daughter though, as she was with me until I grew up a little. We're moving 100 miles away in 6 months so that should solve a few issues! (although there will be more drama about us taking their grandchild away etc)

Can anyone suggest any books that have really helped you to deal with a narc/disordered/toxic parent?

Hello my lovelies (and new ones!).
I am the artist previously known as stupidhead - I changed to stop you lot nagging

How are we all feeling about Christmas?

Amyanne second or third post in on this thread (on phone sorry, can't check) has lots of books.

Kitty liking the new name a lot!

Off to work shortly. Life is so busy. Lots of pressure from both sides of family about Christmas here. Trying to be assertive and make the right decisions. All been a bit odd lately. I met up with my brothers without my parents and it was so nice. Sad really though in some ways.

amyanne welcome. There is a list if recommended books at the start of this thread. Hope they help. Xx

Gaah just did a massive post and lost it!

goodtobetter hope you're ok.

Things have escalated with my DM. We had words a few months ago. Apart from a coupleof flying visits and a couple of calls (all civil) there has been little contact from me. There has been no contact from her.

Yesterday I texted to see if she still wanted to do a couple of things that were planned ages ago. Got serveral woe is me texts back saying Her health has worsened, she is very depressed. I texted back saying sorry she feels like that, how can I help. She replied that she could not get over what I said to her 3 months ago, can't get her head round it , doesn't want to talk about it.

I wrote her a long email last night explaining why I'd pulled her up 3 months ago and apologising for the way I said it. I did use the word 'toxic' when we fell out 3 months ago which I really regret. I could have put my point across much more kindly. However, I have never spoken to her like at before and I'm in my 40s. My lovely, kind and fair DH proof read the email for me so I know it's fair. I them texted her to say I'd emailed her and that we all hoped to pop over today to cheer her up, let us know if this suits. Text back from her 'i will read the email when I feel able'.

Thanks for reading so far! Anyway, I feel guilty for having a go at her in the way I did and this has obviously triggered another episode of depression.
But I'm not going to back down. She thinks she is a victim of everyone - she's fallen out with literally everyone she's ever known. Now she's a victim of my bad behaviour. It's ironic really, because I can hand in heart say I have never been rude to her before. We have all walked on eggshells round her forever. My only sin really has been to detach myself from her at an early age and I rarely indulge her when she's on one of her rants about the latest person to let her down, I just change the subject. I stand up to her literally about once very 5 years.

Hmm.
Mother has sent me a cheque towards Christmas.
Nice of her, as she has NO money.

But:
She has 'broken down' the amount on the cheque to say where is has come from.
It is made up of childhood toys of mine that she has sold.
Listed like this: 'doll - £5' 'soft toy - £5' 'puppet - £10'

She told me some years ago that there was no longer 'any of my stuff left' in their loft. I wish she'd taken a photo of the things. I might not need them any more but I would like to have seen them...

Included in the instructions that come with the cheque is this:
'please buy the children a gift from us'.

Is this weird?

Fuzzyfelt

I write this most kindly and I have made more than my fair share of mistakes when it comes to narcs and narc relatives - but why oh why did you text her at all?. That was error number one which you then compounded by sending her a further e-mail. You write too there had also been no contact from her (trust me this is a good thing!!).

This was never going to end at all well. Your mother is only interested really in one thing; her own self and such people always but always a) need enablers b) always want the last word and c) always looking for a fight. Your text (sent out of due concern for her because you are both empathetic and kind hearted so not at all like your mother) provided her with the perfect ammunition to have a go at you with the "woe is me" text messages that narcissistic mothers so like to send their trained to serve them offspring.

You need to stop both texting and writing her e-mails expressing your concern; she is not interested at all in what you have to say and just wants you to moan at about your supposed shortcomings. She wants an audience and you provide that by communicating with her at all. She also would not have responded nicely to any e-mail sent no matter how politely worded because your mother does not want to hear your very reasoned message. Your mother is still unwilling to apologise let alone accept any responsibility for her actions and yet you feel guilty for "causing" her latest depression. You did no such thing and such thoughts are completely misplaced. If anyone should feel guilty about ill treatment it is your mother but she will never ever say sorry for what she has and still does to you i.e. tie you up in knots and have you run around after her.

You really do have to completely disengage from her; she cannot play such power games (and this is what they really are) if you refuse to keep playing and going back for abuse. Your mother is and never will be the kind hearted soul that you so crave and that is not your fault. This is who she is and she is not going to change. You did not cause her recent depression either, these people are quite happy to blame everyone else but themselves for having the innate ability to fall out with others over the years. It would not surprise me in the least if you were also to advise me that your mother has no friends; such people really do not.

I would read the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic mothers if you have not done so already and see how much that resonates with your own experiences of your mother.

MindReader

That was not just weird of your mother to do that, her actions were also cruel and calculating and you did not deserve that at all.

I would now shred her cheque and not acknowledge this from her in any way.

Thanks attila I was hoping you'd reply! You're right -she has no friends.

I know her response is typically narc. I've read the books and she ticks all the boxes. She's never been physical but has always been emotionally detached, critical and judgemental. She used to be verbally critical of me but hasn't been since I had DCs. She has always, always been the victim of someone's supposed rudeness. She's never hugged or told me or my DB we were loved. It's always been all a bout her and how awful people are to her.

I just wanted get this latest episode if off my chest because for once, she does have something to criticise me for - I did overreact at the spat we had 3 months ago. I called her toxic. This is true for many other situations of course, but not that one. As I said though, I'm not backing down and I'm not continuing with the relationship as it was. I'm looking to reset the boundaries so we do flying breezy visits every couple of weeks. I'm not asking her to baby sit any more (she used to approx once every 2 months).

The ball's in her court now - I've said let us know if you want is to come over for a visit. No response so far.

I had a chat with my DDs (10 and 13) last night, very gently describing a couple of things she has done in the past. I think I'm getting them ready for a detachment. My 10 year old hasn't seen her for 3 months already.

Saying all of this, she really can be nice. There are long periods when she's cheerful, kind, can't do enough for you. But I always feel that bubbling under the surface is her belief that I'm taking advantage, I'm asking too much, I'm not grateful enough.

Thankyou for listening. The advice on this thread is saving my sanity! Just being able to vent is also very cathartic.

Hey everyone, just checking in. It's D-Day today. Not sure what time she's off (maybe she's gone already?). Just lying low and taking it easy. Went out for a leaving do last night and didn't drink (was driving) but got to bed later than normal and feeling KNACKERED and have a headache. No work today so just lying on the sofa with tea and biscuits until the school run. Bit of Time Team on the telly.
Onwards and upwards, this too shall pass and so on.

xx

mindreader agreed wtih what atilla says. It was cruel and it was calculating and meant to hurt. Shred the cheque. I'd be tempted to post it back to her in those shreds but Im in angry mode atm. Rationally it's not worth it.

good, thinking of you. . Like you say, it will be soon at an end

Hope everyone else is surviving today

I remember mindreader when my mother brought round a bag of stuff. in it was my christening tankard that looked as though it had been run over :(

I know there was other christening stuff she was given at the time, seems she felt i had to have this memento, but not the others.

Good I will be thinking of you lovey. this really is the tough bit. it will get easier.

That is weird, the cheque thing. I can only assume she wanted to drive the point home about being poor and your childhood toys were the answer - double whammy in one go!

I had a bit of an epiphany this morning at stupid o'clock. I looked up the daughters of narc mothers site and this jumped out:
"They're emotional vampires, feeding off yours and others' tragedies, and always dismiss or otherwise ruin your successes and celebrations. I found therefore that dealing with my narcissistic mother involved only the most banal of conversation - I could share neither my highs nor my lows"

That is exactly it for me - and judging by this thread, most of you too!

Hellkitty I think you've hit the nail on the head with the 'double whammy' thing of the mindreaders cheque for toys. Maybe even a triple whammy - Childhood toys, money AND 'the children. Very calculated of her. And very weird.

HellKitty

Despite being poor herself, my mother is DELIGHTED I am also poor atm and my H does a manual job.
She really couldn't be happier

THe only thing mother has that I want (and she knows it) is a pencil sketch that was done of me when I was a teenager.
It was £20 I think, and done by a local sketcher in a park.
I paid, Iircc.
She WONT let me have it.
But she wont hang it in her house either.
It is all I want, as it is 'me'.
Despite this, she tells me I will 'have to be very nice to Dad and brother' when she dies or 'I will get nothing'.
This is her husband she told me was my Dad until I was a teenager, (yet wouldn't let him adopt me even though he wanted to I discovered in my 30's...) and my half brother.

Cheque is tip of iceberg, I guess.

And Yy to weird.
Deeply.

Maybe I should read that book that Attila recommends upthread.

I will probably cash the cheque.
I will make a real difference to our Christmas.
And they were my things.
But, it is useful to know that my gut feeling that it wasn't 'straightforwardly kind' is shared.
Thank you.

Mindreader, can you let it go at all? The picture. I know you have emotional ties to it but don't let her have that power over you.

Think I HAVE to, HellKitty.

Just hope it doesn't end up on a skip somewhere, which is what stepbrother will do when the time comes.

We go through periods of little contact and the whole family have been trained by mother to withhold info from me (ie Aunt didn't tell me when Grandmother died as Mother told her I was 'too delicate' to cope with info??? - this was my real father's family too, so she did a real number there. I wasn't told when her husband, my 'Dad' had a stroke either. I found out 4m late).

I guess the relationships are on a skip so the picture might be, but it is symbolic for me I suppose and I would like to 'reclaim' myself from her home.

Mindreader,

Your mother (and she is really not worthy of the term) knows that you still want your pencil sketch and she holds that over you as well like the Sword of Damocles. She would rather destroy it than ever let you have this.

She is also a vicious bitch who is also not above emotionally blackmailing you out of threat of disinheritance when she dies. Such emotionally dysfunctional women need to be totally ignored, radio silence from you is necessary.

I would urge you not to cash her cheque, doing that will enable her to bother you even more because she then knows she got to you. Such money was and is loaded with all sorts of unwritten conditions attached to it as well, not to mention a whole heap of obligation.

Attila you are right about the cheque of course.

The 'inheritance' thing.
I don't know -
She has always said:
As He (her husband) never adopted you (I found out he had wanted to but she never let him - I was sent to school with his name but later discovered my birth certificate was my 'real name' and none of my documents matched!)
You will get nothing.
She intends to die first, he will die intestate so my half brother will get it all.

He will too... I can see it all happening.

MindReader,

re your comment:-

"She has always said:-
As He (her husband) never adopted you (I found out he had wanted to but she never let him - I was sent to school with his name but later discovered my birth certificate was my 'real name' and none of my documents matched!)
You will get nothing.
She intends to die first, he will die intestate so my half brother will get it all".

Your mother is a real nasty piece of work and she intends to die first as well?!. Nasty, nasty woman.

BTW is this man mentioned above and your mother still together?.

Anyhow I would suggest you talk about the above matter to a Solicitor who would be able to advise you properly on the legal side of things. That would be worth your while doing because after all knowledge is power.

People like your mother always use the threat of disinheritance to keep what they see as "errant" offspring in line and to both wield power and control. TBH I would want nothing from this woman alive or dead.

She had a miserable childhood.
In early 20's got married and had a son.
When son was 3 1/2, she met my father (also married).
They had an affair. She says he was the 'love of her life' and I believe her.
I was the result. He is named on my birth certificate.
When I was 3months old, he died in an RTA.
She went back to live with her husband as her parents wouldn't take her in. This was late 1960's and there were few options, hostel wise.
I feel sorry for her re this.

BUT.... I was sent to school in her husbands name and only started to guess the truth when kids at school called me 'bastard' and I came home and asked her what it meant (small town, small town values back then).

Tis a miserable little story.
He is / is not my 'Dad' emotionally (he tried to adopt me but she wouldn't consent, but she went mental when I said I didn't want to be 'given away' at my wedding (mid 30's and it just seemed silly when I hadn't even seen them for 5 years....) but he IS NOT my Dad legally / inheritance wise.

She likes to have her cake and eat it, my mother.

RE the Inheritance, its not about the money, its about being treated as part of the family.

But I know its a non starter...

hey and sorry - i've more skimmed than read and don't have it in me to respond today.

what i do know is HELLO, here we are, it's friday and we ARE alright.

fuck them, fuck it, fuck everything if needs be BUT me you and our little families are ok are we not? if so then yay, round of applause and mission accomplished.

my son is playing games on his tab whilst i check on my laptop and wait for way too fattening takeaway to arrive after a lovely afternoon catching up with an old friend who can think whatever the hell he wants to think.

we ARE ok, we are stable/happy/solid/nourished/secure/connected/whatever.

we're not fucked up, bearing secrets,cowed in a corner, afraid of what might come later, tiptoeing on eggshells or trying to be as invisible as possible.

it's friday night, takeaway chinese is coming, my son is battling dragons on his tab, i'm drinking a glass of wine and catching up with old friends online, the dogs are playing, etc etc. it is OK. no one in this house is scared or hiding or biting their tongue or keeping their head down. this is a home and all the people in it feel safe, happy, relaxed and ok.

that'll do won't it? don't know about everyone on here but for those of us with similarly hard homes in childhood this clearly WILL DO. to feel safe, secure, relaxed and....... 'at home' is good enough yes?

just a daft and flippant well done and don't take for granted you've provided it to those who didn't HAVE it themselves as kids.

we've done well - we really have.

sorry if that read funny but seriously if your children feel safe and loved and like they're standing on solid reliable ground tonight then -???? that'll do pig.