Not exactly Descartes Meditations...

[FolkGirl]

Not going to go into the background, it’s well documented on here, not really relevant, and I feel it’s starting to sound a little self-indulgent. I don't mean it to be. I’m just sad, I'm hurting and I’m confused.

When I am single I'm outgoing, confident, (feel) attractive, a little flirty, people see ‘something’ in me (so I’m told). I get asked out occasionally. I generally turn invitations down, or avoid them if I sense one coming. This is because, I’ve either been in a relationship, or now, because I’m happier being single.

I don’t feel that I ‘need’ a man or a relationship, but my biggest personal fear, is getting to the end of my life never having meant enough to anyone that they loved me. Not even once. Never being held or kissed by, or sharing experiences with someone who loved, valued or respected me.

Are there really any decent, single men? And if there are, why would they choose me over someone else? I keep reading about the ‘spark’ and ‘chemistry’ and that not being based on appearances, or anything tangible. I don’t know if that’s something I’ve had or experienced with anyone. Not really. I do fancy men; I find them attractive; I like them; or they make me laugh and I enjoy their company; or whatever. And no one seems to feel it with me, either. So what is the ‘spark’?

In the past year, I have been pursued by 6 men, 3 of whom have been married. I haven’t been tempted by the MM, but the most recent one has saddened me somewhat. Only because if he were single, I would think him attractive, lovely, thoughtful and quite sweet. But he’s not, because he's married. It doesn't matter how lovely or sweet he is. Or how 'kinda cute' he is when he smiles... because the fact he has a wife at home negates it all – it means that it means nothing. I know that. I’m not stupid. But it’s making me very cynical.

More counselling has been suggested before. I can’t afford the cost of it, to be honest. I have looked at evening/telephone counselling, but I’m no good on the phone (I don’t even phone friends) so that’s not an option, and I can’t get to evening appointments.

Not really sure what I’m looking for really but this is the relationships board and they feel rather alien to me I suppose, I’m finding it hard to not hold onto the hope that one day it might just happen and that's what's hurting me. It also saddens me that I feel that my choices now are to either be cheated on, cheated with, or single. I've chosen 'single'. I just need to know how to close myself off to that hope, I suppose.

The truly decent men are out there, folkgirl, they really are. But I do think they are often rather rare. They do exist though. Admittedly finding a decent man who can do the washing up without being asked, that's even rarer ....

If it's any help, for me the spark is when you feel that you could set the bed afire with your antics with someone, or if they both challenge you and make you feel secure at the same time. But ... that spark is often misleading.

This may be cynical of me but I truly feel that it's better to settle for someone you respect and like and love and feel some sexual attraction to, than with someone whom there are fireworks.

Why would they choose you? because they like you, find the same things funny, find you attractive.

I hope tht what I'm write won't come over as definitely being the situation, Im saying it just in case. On the forums you come over as very likeable. Is it just possible there is something you are doing with irl men that is a bit offputting to them? Have you got any close female friend whom you can ask if there's something you need to do differently? I'm not saying that there is anything you should do differently! Just raising it just in case. Please don't take it personally becuase it's not, like i say you come over as likeable and also rather courageous

Thank you, Meerka

Why would they choose you? because they like you, find the same things funny, find you attractive.

Hmm, when you put it like that, it sounds so simple.

I don't know. I'll ask my friends. I don't think I'm doing anything offputing (God I hope not!!)

I suspect that some of it might be me. I know that I reject anyone I feel deserves 'better' than me and the more someone likes me, or the more decent they are, the less likely I am to be interested. I feel guilty that I have misled them; I lose respect for them in a "I don't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member" sense; and I assume they’d be off at the first sight of someone better once they realised the truth and so ‘block’ them before they’ve even got close. Which kind of rules out all decent, single men, yet paves the way for bastards and MM to come sniffing around.

One of the single men who asked me out has ended up becoming quite a good friend. He said that I come across as very independent and a lot of men possibly wouldn't like that as I don't appear to 'need' a man, and men like to be needed. Is that really the case, though? All I read on here is how men like a woman who is independent and isn't looking to a man to complete their life.

I suppose there is a huge conflict between my public self: confident, self assured, outgoing, happy, positive, open to new experiences and challenges and then my private self which is crippled with self doubt and loathing. Not many people know about the private self. I keep it well hidden.

Have you ever had a relationship? How long was it and what went wrong with it?

"So what is the ‘spark’?"

It's just friendship+ The guy you described as 'attractive, lovely, thoughtful and quite sweet' probably would have been a good candidate for spark if he was available and you'd got to know him better.

There are decent single men out there and you're probably meeting them all the time. The difference between them and the sleazy MM on the make is that decent men tend not to pursue. They respect people's boundaries and can therefore seem uninterested as a result. If you generally turn down people who ask you out, you're missing opportunities. A decent man who respects you as a person won't ask again.

My suggestion is to get to know as many men as possible as friends. Give people chance to get to know you and you to know them. Allow 'spark' to develop through real friendship.

I know that I reject anyone I feel deserves 'better' than me and the more someone likes me, or the more decent they are, the less likely I am to be interested. I feel guilty that I have misled them; I lose respect for them in a "I don't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member" sense; and I assume they’d be off at the first sight of someone better once they realised the truth and so ‘block’ them before they’ve even got close.

I suspect this is absolutely the core of the matter. That's it.

Actually yes some decent men do like a partner who needs them. Or is both independent and vulnerable enough to need someone (not in the desperate sense). Same as some decent women like to be needed. To feel they really matter to someone. So fierce independence (or the facade of it) may put some off. But that's you, it's who you are, and I don't think you should change that deliberately. Maybe over time it might soften a bit as you become more secure in whom you are. Maybe not. But it's fine as it is.

Mumsnet isn't always right Or to put it another way, Mumsnet often hits a truth but not all truths.

I mean this gently, but are you sure, really truly sure, that you are "happier being single", if you are worrying about whether there are any decent men, and whether one would even want you?

A happy single, IMO, would be too busy thinking that she's awesome to have those kinds of thoughts.

I think you need to spend more time thinking that you are awesome, FolkGirl.

yes! (to the last sentance)

Cailin I had several short term relationships and ONSs between being 17 and 20. I ended most of them because I just stopped fancying them; lost interest; met someone I fancied more; didn't see any of them as being long term. I wasn't ever single for more than a few days or so. On reflection, the "unloveable" message I'd got from my parents had already stuck and underpinned it. I never thought I'd met The One or anything. I was very fickle. I didn't think anyone would be hurt because I didn't think I could do that. I used to get told I approached relationships "like a man". I don't think that has helped in terms of how I perceive men to be. I often felt like I'd fallen very much in love. I always had, what appeared to be, very deep feelings for whoever I was seeing. But they also faded just as quickly. And I managed to remain fairly emotionally detached from them. That sounds awful, actually But I knew they didn't/wouldn't ever love me, so I kept it all very superficial in reality.

Then I met and had a 3 year relationship with the father of my son. That ended when he cheated on me when I was pregnant. There was physical and emotional abuse. He had 'issues' and, on reflection, was looking to me to 'fix' him. I think I felt at the time that I loved him and wanted to fix him. I now know all of that is wrong.

I had a year and a half on my own then started dating an old friend from school, when my son was a toddler. We were (and still are) a fab co-parenting team. We married after 8 years and another child and I ended it when he had an affair 3 years later. We should never have been together really. We'd both had fairly dysfunctional upbringings in different ways and we each met needs in the other. We cared about each other and were fond of each other, but didn't ever fancy or love each other. We didn't have a 'proper' marriage.

Then I dated a bit just because I wondered if anyone would ever find me attractive again. All on my terms, great confidence boost, but then one of them kind of stuck and I was with him for 10 months. I ended it because I suspected he was crossing boundaries with other women. Didn't have any concrete evidence, but there were enough 'markers' and I was starting to see other red flags anyway. So I ended it. That sounds very cold and matter of fact, but I was broken hearted and agonised over everything pretty much the whole time. The more he appeared to like me, the less secure I felt. The more he said he felt for me, the greater my self loathing.

I'm now resolutely single, and happy to be so. I just feel sad that I've had these relationships, but there was never any love.

It's me, though, isn't it?

I think you've hit the nail on the head when you say that the unloveable message that you got from your parents stuck.

It seems to me that you're very much looking outward for validation -you want someone to "prove" you're good enough by loving you. That is a surefire path to disaster. What you need to do is work on yourself, for yourself, come to a place where you feel happy in yourself without any outside validation (as much as possible anyway - we all need a bit of positive feedback!) and then think about having a relationship, or deciding that you'd rather not.

Goats I am happier, yes. Not happy. It's relative... Being in a relationship makes me so miserable that I can't function properly. Besides, it's still better than being the OW or finding out there's an OW!

Cogito I know you're right. But what worries me about that, is that I do have male friends, and I do meet quite a few through different hobbies and friends etc. I've not met anyone that way.

A number of my male friends are married. It's just the way it is. Sometimes I'm friends with their wives too, sometimes not. I always feel 'safe' around married men. I feel that their marriage offers a layer of protection. Then I feel a bit insulted or let down if they declare feelings or make a move, or 'pursue', because I feel they've overstepped my boundary, as well as that of their marriage.

I'm actually really busy. I realised the other day, that I'm far too busy to have a relationship, really. It's the thought that it might never happen, or that I could get through life not having been loved that makes me a bit sad.

It is nice to be found attractive, too. I don't seek validation through that, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't care!

you want someone to "prove" you're good enough by loving you

Yes. I think you're probably right on that. I think that probably is what it is.

I don't really know how to do it though.

In my professional life, I have validation through a number of sources. I have friends. I've found myself in the 'inner circle' in a couple of my hobbies...

On the surface, I probably look like I'm doing pretty ok... Except that I'm not

Then I feel a bit insulted or let down if they declare feelings or make a move, or 'pursue', because I feel they've overstepped my boundary, as well as that of their marriage

I feel like it makes a sham of the friendship and rather than feeling flattered, I feel like they were only friends/friendly with me because they wanted more. I feel like I've lost a friend.

I don't think any of us can be happy in or out of a relationship if we feel unlovable.

No relationship can make you feel lovable - I think you've figured that part out. You can't share love with another person if you don't even know what that means; if you have no self-love to begin with.

The key is in delving into yourself and to accept, for yourself, that you are lovable, just as you are. Then you can be happy, in or out of a relationship.

The whole "love yourself first" thing is trite but true.

What could you do to enhance your own self-esteem?

goats I can see that what you have said is very true. How can I share love if I don't know what it is? I think I'm often attracted to men who are emotionally unavailable precisely so that it can't easily become something more.

In terms of raising my self esteem, I don't know what more I can do. I hold a responsible position in a voluntary organisation; I challenge myself professionally (well as much as I feel able to); I regularly push myself outside my comfort zone personally; I try to be someone who says 'yes' rather than 'no' to new experiences; I have friends; but I feel, a lot of the time, like a husk of a person. Like on the outside/on paper, it looks pretty good, but on the inside, I'm just a bit empty.

I don't know what else to do!

You know what? I don't think you have a problem with self-esteem. I'm not saying you come over as arrogant - you don't. You come over as balanced, sorted out, able, thoughtful, and pretty darn cool if I'm honest. You sound like you ARE pretty comfortable in your own skin, and that's awesome.

I wonder if the problem is that you associate relationships with something 'internal' about yourself that you feel must be 'missing'. And I think that would be wrong. A lot of people are single not because they are defective or lacking something, but because they just don't happen to be in a relationship right now. The idea that someone being in a couple is the automatic default and that anything else is 'wrong' is a problem here!

You've had good relationships in the past. Not only that, you've managed to remain effective co-parents with your last guy in spite of everything, which is pretty much like climbing some sort of modern Relationship Mount Everest. To achieve that, you actually have to be pretty good at communicating and understanding - and at relationships. Add to that the fact that you can't be very old at all, and I think it's quite a bit premature to be declaring yourself an old spinster with no romantic future!

To me, the real kicker is when you say that you're too busy to have a relationship. Modern life, eh? Being a parent, pursuing hobbies, running a career - you're juggling a lot of balls already. If you really feel ready to try again - and there is absolutely nothing stopping you - you're going to need to clear some space in that packed diary to invest in meeting new people. And that means accepting some additional emotional risk in your life, too - sometimes you have to kiss a few frogs! It also means potentially accepting some of the tools that are out there to help, be it speed dating, internet dating. It's easy to think those things are too stilted, too contrived to work - which, in my view, radically overrates the casualness and effectiveness of the old-fashioned methods, e.g. getting pissed and then sleeping with people out of the pub!! (One of the strongest marriages between two of the most intelligent people in my circle of friends started in speed dating).

Get out there, and good luck!

PS I think being hit on by married men is always a bit disappointing. It's not flattering either to you or to their wives or sense of values/fidelity. YOu are not alone in that!

I know what you mean about being disappointed when you're hit on by married men you think are friends. Makes the ones who don't seem extra decent.

Thank you, outofcontrol.

I tried online dating. Good fun, but not sure I'm emotionally strong enough to try that again!

I think it's the emotional risks I'm not really ready to take, tbh. Feels like too big a risk and feel like I'm not strong enough to deal with the hurt at the moment.

I worry about being good enough; slim, pretty, fun, intelligent, interesting enough. I feel I need to be 'better' than all other women to keep someone with me. And I'm obviously not going to be! I put a huge amount of pressure on myself.

Not sure I'd trust anyone anymore, either. It's exhausting feeling so sad about it!

Also...

I always assume that women my age who are single have been cheated pn, and single men my age have cheated. Or are more interested in shagging about. Or are incapable of relationships.

Or they're not really single...

I think you have understandable issues with trust, after having been cheated on a couple of times by the men that you were with. That is completely normal in the circumstances! However, it is also something that you're eventually going to have to get over (gradually, building trust over time) if you do want to date again.

However, it's simply not true that cheating is the only reason for women/men to be single!! Nor is it true that it's always men doing the cheating, though that has sadly been your experience. Relationships can break down for many complex reasons - including the fact that they can just fizzle out. There will be men out there who have got out of relationships with abusive women, men who were faithful but were cheated on, men who have discovered that their partners are gay, men who just haven't found the right person yet, etc etc etc And many of them are decent sorts, they really are! :)