How to deal with DH & PILs situation

[Pumpkinification]

PILs are narcissistic & manipulative. There have been many issues over the years, but DH continues to want to keep his parents in our lives. They dote on DD & she loves them. However they ignore our wishes, turn up at the house unannounced at times we have previously told them are inconvenient (naptime, mealtime etc) demanding to be let in. Also if we mention we may go out somewhere particular at the weekend, they immediately go there & get a table/pay entry/whatever & ring us constantly at home & on our mobiles until we answer. If we don't let them in/agree to meet them, regardless of what our previous plans were, they get in a massive mood for days.

DH & I have spoken about his parents & their behaviour & he is getting really stressed out by them. He's just started a new job & doesn't need this stress as he already suffers from MH issues including anxiety & depression. He knows I will support him but should I just sit back (metaphorically speaking) & let him call the shots with his parents? Sometimes I really suspect he can't, he is not very confident, but at other times he seems fine. I know this is probably due to the MH issues. He is often very closed off & won't talk to me when he's struggling. I don't know what to do.

Move away. Seriously, you need to cut right back. So what if they throw their toys out of the pram? Of course your DH is stuck in the FOG which is why he thinks they should have a relationship with your dd, but look what they did to him! Why is that a good influence on your child?
I suggest you put your foot down, stop pandering to them and let the cards fall where they will.

Move!

Move at least an hour away.

You don't have to let them control you. You can let them rage about whatever. You don't have to listen or anything.

Keeping these people at all in any aspect of your lives is an absolute recipe for disaster as you have already seen (and you've had years of this already). These people are the root cause of your DHs anxiety and depression and they will continue to wreak havoc in your lives given any opportunity.

It is NOT your fault they are like this, their own families of origin did that lot of damage to them.

It is NOT possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist and his parents are not good grandparents. Narcissists in particular make for being deplorably bad grandparent figures, they were terrible as parents to your DH and they will not make good grandparents to your child. Never leave them alone with your child either!.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the narcissistic grandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Ngrandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Ngrandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the Ngrandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them.

They do not love your child, they see her purely as narcissistic supply and they could well go onto manipulate and try and control her as they have with your DH. They will use her to get back at you as her parents. Your DH is very much in FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) and is also very much an adult child of a narcissistic parent. These people have done an awful lot of damage to their son.

You ultimately need to move and go no contact with these people because they will never give you any peace nor respect any boundaries you care to set them. They are already turning up without prior arrangement and are extremely demanding.

One thing you can continue to do is to keep on refusing to budge to any demands to see any of you. If they cannot or will not behave decently which they do not anyway they get to see none of you. You will need to support him, I do not think he is at all strong enough to withstand their continued onslaught of his family unit. You need to protect yourselves from such malign influences.

You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, family are no different.

I would suggest you read "Toxic Inlaws" written by Susan Forward and your DH should read "If you had controlling parents" written by Dr Dan Neuharth.

I would also suggest your DH now finds a therapist who has experience in working with adult children of narcissistic parents. Such people do exist.
He has to let go of the often held fantasy that his parents will change, they do not and will not change.

As an Adult Child of a Narcissistic Parent, you have two options:

1. Total Estrangement - no contact, nothing, with your Narcissistic Parent.

2. Measured Contact - contact, but limited interaction with Narcissistic Parent.

(In your case I would suggest option 1)

If you do choose to keep measured contact with your Narcissistic Parent, be very sure to follow some strict, clear guidelines:

Create very clear boundaries. Don't reward your parent for crossing them. Be clear, but firm. If they show up unannounced, explain nicely that you are too busy to visit with them.

Shield your own children from their narcissistic grandparents. They do not need to be exposed to their toxic behaviours.

Rather than explain that you do not want to hear their advice, echo and mirror whatever the Narcissistic Parent says. Do whatever you'd planned to do anyway.

Go through a third party as your Narcissistic Parent ages - do not allow them to rely upon you and you alone as they need care.

Provide information on a "need to know" basis only. Just because your
Narcissistic Parent tells you everything doesn't mean you must reciprocate.

We can't move house at present, I don't want to go into detail. But we are definitely moving once this fixed period is up, we've already agreed that. I will definitely look at those books, thanks Attila. I do also recognise the money issue (they spend far too much on DD). It hadn't even occurred to me that this is part of it. I have previously recognised DH is in the FOG but he doesn't seem to see how much, I assume this is normal?

It is really hard as we see them around a lot. I've no idea how much is genuine coincidence but it would be hard if we took a stand & really stuck to it, DD is too young to understand & I imagine they would just blank us.

Don't tell them any plans you have, that way they can't sabotage your day.
Just be vague "Oh, don't know yet".

Really, if they appeared at the door while you're busy just don't answer the door. Who cares if they are put out? It might lessen the occasions....

Good luck with it. And yes I'd move (and make sure you don't have a guest room!!).

pumpkin I could have wrote this post, it is spooky! this is exactly what my (now ex) in-laws are like, my ex also suffers from anxiety and it is no wonder with parents like that. Unfortunately for us it spelt the end of our relationship. He was just not willing or able to break away from his mother in the way he had promised he would before we had our child.

The coming over at inconvenient times is very familiar: she would not be told, saying she wouldn't be dictated to over when she could see her grandchild, complaining when we stuck to his routine despite her. I set very firm boundaries but really lost it with her when she just walked into the house uninvited when she knew my partner was out and 'confronted' me while I was bathing my child.

My partner didn't back me up completely and our relationship suffered because of it. I think you both need to be singing from the same hymn sheet.

I can't advise, as nothing I did worked, but don't tell them your plans, ever. Or give them false plans . The advice up thread about over valuing of the grandchild is very familiar- she is suffocating, and with her older grandchildren she genuinely believes they love her more than their parents.

Thanks for all the advice. Will try to discuss it further with DH & encourage him that these strategies will help. Very hard though, I don't want to be overly pushy. He doesn't realise how odd some of their behaviour is, as he grew up with it, & I don't want to alienate him, he has enough stress in his life. I think distance will definitely help.

I am sorry to hear that, Trenchcoat.

But Trenchcoat, don't your ex pils now have access to your child whenever ex dh has?

They see him at least once a week winky. This was the case before we split as well as we had a big falling out and we agreed not to contact each other anymore (she was harassing my mum by text as well and constantly trying to phone her). She doesn't come to the house while I am still here looking for a private rent. But no, I can't control whether my ex lets her see him, I don't know if I would want him to never see them, it depends on her behaviour. My ex knows how I feel about her and I wouldn't trust her to be alone with him and not talk about me.

I hope you can get your husband on side pumpkin. My ex agreed his parents behaviour fitted the mould regarding narcissism, triangulation, golden child / scapegoat etc. would your partner recognise such traits in his parents?

Gross over-reaction and projection from some posters, unfortunately. There isn't nearly enough information in your post to recommend estrangement - and that should be a decision for you and your DH to make alone in any case (or with a trained counsellor). Your DH's mental health issues won't disappear if you back out of the relationship with your parents - and in time, it may be helpful for him to know that he handled the situation successfully, rather than dealing with the guilt of having given up on them. But this is speculation because there simply isn't enough information. I say this as someone who is totally estranged from PIL and all that side of the family, so really do understand that sometimes it's necessary. But try boundaries first if you possibly can because of there is sadness involved in losing a grandparent/parent unless they are utterly toxic in every way. What is definitely clear is that firm, firm boundaries are needed. You need to sit them down or send a letter explaining that things will be different. Set out the measured contact you can offer and explain what will happen if they overstep this. As someone else has said, make sure you don't 'reward' times when they have done something that they have known isn't welcome or 'allowed'. Try it and if it doesn't work, you can know that you did try. If they're anything like my PIL, they will instantly assume you're the one driving all this and attribute it to psychological problems/plain nastiness.

Some counsellors though are simply not skilled enough to understand how narcissists really work. If a counsellor is found, this person needs to be someone who has no bias about keeping families together despite the real and ongoing presence of mistreatment.

Guilt is a close friend of adult children of narcissists and he is likely carrying a lot of guilt already. Sometimes no contact is very much the only option because self preservation is necessary and needed.

Boundaries set to narcissists are more often than not ignored by such people. His parents have persistently turned up without prior arrangement or announcement so will likely not respond at all favourably or even at all to any letter sent, such could be well used against OP and her DH lso.

PILs will likely disregard it and dismiss their very real concerns as nonsense.

Let these people blank you, you really do not need your inlaws in your lives in such a manner. What is the worst they can really do?. Cut you off themselves?. They would actually do you a favour by doing so.

We have tried talking to them about it before. They either ignored what we said, or got petulant & snappy about it. They have done worse in the past & DH has forgiven them, (although I haven't), and I am prepared to tolerate it as long as it's not harming him, DD or our marriage as that's what DH wants, but I can't really be sure how much harm it is causing long term.

Yes Atilla no one is arguing with all that. Except a little, because your perspective is so heavily weighted against giving parents even one chance to redeem themselves. There's something very bossy and pushy about telling the OP that what she could try is pretty pointless, even with so little information to go on. Are you a trained counsellor? I ask because a trained counsellor wouldn't attempt what you are taking upon yourself to do here and it would be interesting to know how you feel justified to do this. A trained counsellor is also required to do a lot of personal work to ensure that they don't hand out advice that is weighted in one direction as a result of personal experiences. The OP needs to find out what is right for her family and that cannot be decided by anyone else.

OP, there are ways to make yourself heard. If they ignore what you say, you can remove yourself and the kids and pleasantly explain why. If they become petulant, you can give them a chance to grow up, then remove yourselves and pleasantly explain why. Set the terms. You can choose to get out of their presence if they're not behaving reasonably. And you won't have to see them again until they've stopped sulking. The kiss of death to all this is to say 'We've tried but they won't let us...'. Of course they will resist attempts to force reasonable dynamics! You have the children and your husband and you can't be manipulated by withdrawal. You have all the power and they have none.

He needs to see a very good therapist to help him decide what he wants and is able to do IMHO.

I think you have to be extremely careful with them and your DD. There are some very sad posts indeed on here from time to time about grandparents who have turned grandchildren against the very mothers that tried to facilitate the relationship, because they believed it was for the best.

It doesnt sound as if they will respect your boundaries or your daughter's. That's very bad for her.