Chin scratching. How aware are they?

[Monny]

Having been in an abusive relationship for near 18 years, I have always wondered one thing. How aware are the emotional and financial abusers of what they are doing? The number of times I have asked myself "when will he realise what he is doing to me?"

When my OH who bullies me and I defend myself, he will project that characteristic on to me so that I am suddenly the bully. If I don't like to do things his way, I become the controlling character. I have felt permanently outwitted and flummoxed when he tells me I am doing what he is just doing. I don't know how to respond other than a pathetic 'I'm not!' I just don't know how their mind works - do they really believe they are being bullied, controlled, etc. or is it a calculated response?

When they justify their behaviour (she asked for it) - do they believe themselves or are they entirely aware of what they are up to? Do they honestly believe that they are doing is in some ways right? Are they actually unaware of the emotional impact their behaviour has on their family?

My OH grew up in an abusive household (it was all normal back in the 70s where he lived... apparently) So, has he just grown up like this.... or has he learned it as a technique to lever his way in life? I know his parents have a lot to say on matters and a lot of not very nice things to say about others? They certainly meddle in their kid's relationships. So, is it a family culture? It feels like the cult of the PIL for me, if they said the sky was green, it suddenly would be fact...

Abuse seems to get worse with time and when I have been weak/vulnerable (new baby, grieving for a parent, etc.) he has put the boot-in. I just wonder if their brain is in some way wired to behave that way or if they literally think "Oh, she's in bits about her parent dying 2 days ago, now's the time to harrang her about the position of the washing up liquid and say we must have a kids party".

Whatever it is, it doesn't make it OK. That's all really. Just chin scratching.

I think bullies start from a place of selfishness. I knew one bully who learned the behaviour literally at their mother's knee. I knew another who grew up the archetypal spoilt brat and couldn't tolerate the word 'no'.

Either way, they find that a particular behaviour pattern gets them what they want so that's what they do. They carry on until it doesn't get them what they want and then they change tack a little and try something else. I think some kid themselves that the other person enjoys going along with it really. Others might rationalise their behaviour as 'blunt' or 'forthright' or 'feisty'. They're doing everyone else a favour. They know best. Others get a sick pleasure out of seeing others look uncomfortable. There's all kinds of motivations.

I don't know the answer but couldn't read and run! Doesn't matter how aware he is? It is not unreasonable to expect common decency and respect. A lot of people grow up in difficult situations it is not licence to be a dick and if you are too self-involved to know you are being a dick, that is not ok either!!

I know simply saying LTB is often not helpful but you should know you deserve better, much better!

I would say your energy would be put to better use in understanding why you stick around and tolerate that.

I think your OH is just a bully.

I think bullies are kidding themselves. I think they seek out people who will in some way give them something - someone to humiliate to give the bully a sense of power or elevated status, someone to control in order to give the bully a sense of self esteem, someone to hurt when the bully needs to express their own hurt. If I'm upset, you bloody will be too.

Bullies of all kinds are pretty vile and the older they are, the less likely they are to change. I think your OH is clearly replicating his parents' relationship and behaving in the way he was taught through his childhood.

How aware are bullies of what they're doing? They don't reach a state of being aware because that comes with reflection, and bullies simply just don't care about others' feelings, they care only about themselves. If they're getting what they want, that's the end of the thought process. No one else matters. Their feelings don't count

Everything bullies do to those they bully is done by design. The purpose of their behaviour is to gain something for themselves. So in turning the tables, they attempt to exploit the, frankly, better nature of their victim. If you show sympathy or express hurt, they know it matters to you and use it against you. To get what they want. Win the argument, make you do something, make you not do something, get their own way.

They.
Just.
Don't.
Care.

Do they think what they're doing is right - they believe they are in the right and the end game is not doing the right thing, a thing that is kind and fair, but for them to WIN. To come out on top. I believe this need often comes from being put down themselves, perhaps in childhood, perhaps in another area of their life, eg work.

Bullies have stunted emotional intelligence and are selfish, ignorant, cruel, nasty people who deserve nothing.

I have ranted so clearly this is something I feel strongly about and obviously have suffered from. A lot.

Oh, and any attention or kindness or sympathy received by you - eg when you lost a parent - is attention you don't deserve and attention that rightly belongs to the bully, lest you get too big for your boots.

Question: if you had someone in your life you truly despised, how would you treat them? How would it compare to the way your OH treats you? Would it be as bad?

Thanks for all your replies - very interesting and definitely many truths. I think selfishness and getting what he wants has been key to my OH's behaviours. And it's true that at the end of the day, he does not care.

@AnyFucker - I'm not sticking around, I'm off as sooooon as I can. I know why I stuck around, however, I think it's worth pausing to ponder about what is/has been going on. It'll be good to move on, but if I can understand the mechanics of what's been going on, I'll have learned something from it. Also, it wasn't a matter of tolerating it. Nastiness like this starts slowly, and is matched with a flip side of lots of apparent love. Verbal abuse one week, then kind words the next. I am now being financially ground down, yet received an expensive gift recently - go figure. If you've been really ground down by someone so many times, it's hard enough to make sure the kids lives are going ok, let alone pack a rucksack and spring out the door to happiness.

I am glad you are getting out.

As well as understanding what motivates a bully etc it helps to examine your own reaction. Not the ground down version of yourself now, conditioned by 18 years of crappy behaviour, but the version from the early days. Why was initial nastiness tolerable? How did you rationalise it? What was or wasn't going on in your life at the time that might have had an influence? What did the abusive person represent and what was it you found endearing?

Because that's the place you'll be at some point in the future i.e. sat across a dinner table from a new romantic candidate and trying to work out if they're genuine or just showing you flip sides of apparent affection as a means to an end. The world abounds with selfish wannabe bullyboys ... all dressed in sheep's clothing.... & the trick is to spot them early before they have chance to do any damage.

I point a few people towards this article about the early warning signs of abusers. Might be worth a read.

...and the Freedom Programme will help you work it out too

I think some bully types actually believe that no one else has feelings, that when something upsetting happens to someone else it's not that bad. When the same thing happens to them it's the end of the world and they are entitled to take it out on the world.

I honestly don't think they realise. I was with someone for four years who cheated on me for two of them, he was emotionally distant and weird but sometimes very lovely etc, I told him regularly he was behaving in a a cruel way to me. In the end I ended it and I honestly, truly think he would describe himself as a decent person. He got in contact with me some time afterwards and said he missed me and could we just be friends as he couldn't be happy without me in his life. He seemed completely baffled when I told him, very bluntly, to feck off and why he could do that. I don't understand why they can't see it. But I believe they can't.

'Won't' rather than 'can't'. You say you told him regularly that he was behaving cruelly so unless you are a very poor communicator or they struggled to understand English, they understood perfectly well that their actions were causing you unhappiness and pain. That they subsequently chose to ignore what you were saying means they didn't care and didn't take it seriously.

I think it varies. Some know what they're doing. Some genuinely think they should have whatever it is they want and get angry at people who don't provide it and think nearly any means to getting what they want are acceptable. They really believe that what they want, they are entitled to have.

Some know in their heart of hearts but justify it, the "she made me do it!" excuse. I think they often hide the truth from themselves. Few want to think of themselve as the bad guy so they hide the truth and are half-aware ... hence both putting the boot in when the other person is low and the justifying.

Some know it and don't care, simply don't care that they are hurting others.

Some get off on it. What's that old thing, two ways to be improve yourself; 1) work on yourself to make yourself better or 2) put everyone else down.

I also think there are some people who get in a relationship and they are simply bad for each other. Their respective weaknesses and strengths don't complement, they make each other worse. Change partner and they can behave differently ... perhaps partly becuase they know they can't get away with it.

Also no matter how bad someone's upbringing is, and I've seen some absolute corkers of shitty upbringings, very nearly everyone has some degree of choice in what they become. They can choose to lash out when they feel angry or they can choose to express it calmly. They can choose to think twice before kicking the dog or the daughter or the pregnant wife. If they don't, they become bullies. (There are a very, very few exceptions to that where people do not have a choice but you are talking severe mental illness at that point).

I hope you can get out and away and rebuild your life.

Phew! I was so glad when I read that you're on the point of getting away from this man! 18 years of your life, I feel so sad for you. I totally agree with those on here who say don't bother analysing bullies, just learn to identify their behaviour and give them a wide berth.

I don't btw subscribe to the 'oh, he had an awful childhood...' brigade. My DH had a horrific start in life, yet a kinder, more caring man you couldn't wish to meet.

fwiw, I was a teacher for many years, and came across just a few primary-age children who were already cruel, controlling bullies by nature. I wonder if they were born that way? They never felt sorry for their victims; in fact I realised my efforts to explain to them why it was wrong met with a mere shrug. (Out of thousands of pupils, they numbered about ten or fifteen in all, over the years.)
But an adult can and should be able to control their actions. If not, then I suppose they would be classed as a psychopath (in the strict scientific use of the word)

Thanks for all the replies, really interesting thoughts . I think that my OH didn't see much 'normal' growing up. The atmosphere is really that oppressive, personal boundaries do not exist and everything is 'justified'. That doesn't make it ok though and he most certainly didn't start the relationship that bad.

Hatespiders - don't feel sad, I do have two fab kids and now hope! Also, I've not been a wallflower, I've shouted, I've said bad things back, etc. But since we had kids, the power balance really swung his way and he's run with it to ridiculous levels. He's the big man that makes the money and I am the full-time mummy who's lazy, doesn't do things the way his mother likes and doesn't contribute financially. So I may have no say in anything financial, even big decisions affecting the house.

Now (apart from planning my departure with the kids) I just need to work out how to get rid of my feelings of stress. And I don't mean the stress you feel when you are about to end a relationship.

For example, I feel ridiculously stressed every time I get an official letter (not a nice birthday card). I don't mean the 'oh cr@p, it's a bill' feeling but I feel the adrenalin pumping and I feel panicked. Every single time I literally have to build myself up (and try to stop myself ignoring that letter).

Why? Because he's scared me so much about financial matters in general and then one day he just cancelled my pension. I found out by post when the company sent a letter saying payments had stopped. I was so scared because in recent arguments he'd threatened to throw me out when the kids were 18. Now, in spite of logic, I expect crushing news in every typed envelope. I want to start a business, but how can I if I am disabled by an envelope! Even at work (I no have a part-time job), I look at envelopes with a degree of stress. What bad news lurks beneath?

I got over my fear of daddy long legs after 30 years, the mere envelope can't take that long can it?