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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Is this as Toxic as it feels? (really long, sorry)

32 replies

MindReader · 14/09/2014 21:50

I have namechanged for this (as I left my MN page open last night and he was reading my post on the IndyRef thread and H now knows my old username....)

H and I have been married 13 years.
The first 3 were happy.
Since then we have struggled (and I know that is a LONG time).
We needed IVF for male factor and H has never really 'got over' this.
His 'prowess' was incredibly important to him and he became impotent at the news of the need for IVF (and why we needed it, although I never made an issue of it, but he really really did. Qu'd whether the children were 'really his' after both births to the extend I suggested a paternity test if it would reassure him, but he declined.).
He tried to seek help via the (useless) GP at the time but got nowhere and now will not discuss it. He had a breakdown, actually, but wont admit it.
I had health problems throughout, 2 difficult pregnancies and births and both children poorly for the first few months, and, although we have 2 fantastic fantastic children, it came at a 'price'.
I have mobility problems since the first birth (trapped nerves down both legs and feet and back problems too). Finally found a good Consultant and I have been waiting for an OP since Feb which now looks like it wont happen (Consultant leaving and no one else seems to know about condtion). This affects me a great deal as I am tired / in pain a lot.
The combination of H's distress at 'his lack of potency' and my health issues have led to us not sharing a room (or any form of intimacy) for nearly 6 years.
More importantly, though, the marriage is now dead.
There is no kindness, no affection, no emotional support - nothing at all.

Our eldest child probably has ASD and certainly has dyslexia and we live in an area where there is no help available for either - in fact our attempts to access help have created a great deal of strain. To access help we will need to change area. This is well worth it as child's life is miserable and other child not v happy at our local sink school either. We have a house with a high mortgage that we cant afford as I cant work atm and we are getting deeper and deeper in debt. It is really scary. We last tried to sell the house 2 years ago and are about to try again. If we cant sell within a few months, we will go bust I fear.

So, there has been LOTS of strain and there is nothing left of the marriage.
We agreed that I would take the children to a rented house (I don't want to stay here) and, as the marriage is dead anyway, we would separate formally and, initially at least, I would claim housing benefit whilst our house went up for sale.
This was the plan. However, landlady got the jitters about my benefits and pulled out at the last moment, so I have to start again. H is furious.

Last weekend, H's sister was due to visit Northumberland (they live in Brum, we are in southern Scotland). The plan was to 'meet up' (arranged with H - she doesn't speak to me, nor does MIL). They consider I am lazy for not working and do not accept my disability nor (I think)) do they accept ds' - certainly they never ask about it, never phone the house, just keep in touch with H by text.

The night before, H took kids to local cycle park. I cannot walk that far by teatime. About 15m after they left, the kids arrived back by themselves, visibly upset. They said 'Dad slipped over and started shouting bad words at us'. They ran home (across a busy road - they are 7 and 9). I was very concerned that they had felt upset enough to come home alone but kept calm and reassured them they had done nothing wrong and perhaps Dad was just being silly. I put them to bed and H still not back or answering texts. He eventually came back, in a filthy mood having slipped and fallen, and said the children had 'pushed him'. This seemed highly unlikely so I questioned him a bit and he lost the plot screaming and shouting at me. The next day we did not go for the family trip. I later found out that he had texted his sister saying that we couldn't come because he and I had 'had a row'. He spent most of the rest of the weekend in bed.

I have explained to the children that Dad should not have shouted at them, even if he was having a bad day, that was not okay. Since then, I have gone with them, pain or no, in case he behaves like that in front of them again. This is not a good way to have to live.

BUT: today H shows me a text from his sister from yesterday: ' I know you cant talk to XXX (me). Don't talk to Mum and Dad you will upset them. I finish work on Mon at 12. I will call you at 12.15. WE are your family. WE will stick by you. WE must get this sorted so you don't lose out'.
I asked H what he 'couldn't talk to me about' that his sister was ref to - is it about the house / money and he started shouting again. He went to bed at 6pm (missing dinner with kids). This is classic behaviour when questioned about anything he doesn't want to talk about.

Apparantly,
I am a 'mad bitch' and it is 'all my fault - even his mum and sister agree'.
I know they don't like me and I suspect he has been dripping poison about me to them for years, but you would think they would at least ask about the children??? He ranted on about 'losing HIS home, and maybe HIS car, because HIS bank account might not support HIS mortgage'. Nothing about the kids or me, sadly. He said: 'as any single person would say'...
This is clearly what he considers himself to be, and has done for some time, I suspect. He was absolutely gutted when we didn't get to move out.

Sorry this is so long.
I hope it is coherent and contains enough details to give a true picture.
I would be grateful for any thoughts.

OP posts:
AgentProvocateur · 14/09/2014 21:59

It sounds like you're both desperately unhappy, and it can't be great for your children to live like that. Have you found another rented house to live in? Also, did your children push him over? It all sounds very stressful.

MindReader · 14/09/2014 22:02

Yes, both unhappy.
No, the children didn't push him over. They wouldn't dream of it.
He just has to blame someone else for everything.
No, not yet found another rental that will accept benefits - very hard.

Just a bit stunned at all the 'poor me' stuff with his family and their complete lack of concern for (or even interest in) kids or me. And it sounds like H and his sister are having a lot of 'urgent chat's' re the situation re house and money and how to make it okay for him?

OP posts:
MajesticWhine · 14/09/2014 22:09

Sorry for your horrible situation. Yes it does sound very toxic. There are many things here, but one thing that springs to mind, is I am concerned that you are going to get shafted if you leave the family home voluntarily. With the influence of his family, might he try and wriggle out of you getting a proper settlement? I would suggest, if you haven't already, that you get some legal advice about separating. Maybe you could get some (hopefully free?) mediation to help you separate amicably.

MindReader · 14/09/2014 22:12

Majestic - thanks for wading through the post.

(should have said - thanks Agent too!)

Yes, I think he / his family will lose no time in grabbing all they can.
There will be precious little to grab though anyway.
I cant stay here, in terms of education and in terms of accessibility re the house and my mobility, it's just not an option. If I had needed less help than I do in my current housing situation, I would have lived separately from him a long time ago.

OP posts:
MajesticWhine · 14/09/2014 22:21

Yeah, I can see that but I wonder if it would be better to get a formal agreement first? I don't really know anything about family law really. Hopefully someone else can advise. It just doesn't sound good. Unfortunately, with the sister on the scene, it might be better to err on the side of caution.
Maybe see a solicitor and check on your rights?

As for your health. Where is the consultant going? They can't get you to be seen by someone else? How frustrating.

MindReader · 14/09/2014 22:26

Consultant going to middle east, afaik.

His sister is a mean and meddlesome person and always has been.
When we first got engaged she warned me off him (!) saying that his dyslexia meant he would 'never get anywhere' and his inability to deal with stress (during his first marriage) meant he was 'not marriage material'. I couldn't believe a sister would speak about her brother that way. In recent years however, I seem to have become the wicked witch of the west and she has taken him back into the fold.

I will go and get some legal advice so, if we can sell the darned house, at least we get equal shares of what's left, even if its only a few quid (or debt)

OP posts:
Zazzles007 · 14/09/2014 23:15

Having grown up in an incredibly toxic family, your story sounds very toxic. When you have time, could you characterise the rest of the relationship for us? It would help to know what the rest of the relationship is like in the context of what you have already described.

MindReader · 14/09/2014 23:25

Zazzles - sorry if I'm being dense but I'm not sure what you mean by 'characterise the relationship'?

OP posts:
Zazzles007 · 14/09/2014 23:35

Oh MindReader, just tell us more about the relationship and the patterns you have noticed taking place between you, him and the children Smile. It helps posters to get a picture of the family and how you all interact with each and what he is doing within the family.

MindReader · 14/09/2014 23:49

Don't know if I am aware of patterns as such, but what occurs to me is:

H isn't close to his Dad. His Dad is very cold with him and very competitive. His TV is always better, if H gets a new car, then his Dad's is better, ditto new jacket, just everything really. H's Dad treats him with bemused disdain. I worry H will continue this pattern with ds.
His mother smothers him but in a 'oooh, what's poor H not managed now' sort of way. They ignore or infantilise him. I wish I had seen more of his family dynamic (and realised more of his wish to stay unaware of it) before we married.

My childhood was also dysfunctional but I have had quite a lot of counselling so am (more) aware of how it affects me.

I think my mobility probs make H feel powerful. Certainly if I have to ask for help he is pleased. He often doesn't help though. He will make a show of it in front of others but it is a different story inside the house. Because he also resents it like fury. His mother is a HUGE hypochondriac and he never got to be officially 'poorly' himself (despite breaking his neck as a teenager and narrowly avoiding paralysis). So the fact I am (at some level) infuriates him.

H doesn't know many other people with young children. So he tends to behave as though the children are being a nuisance, when they are just being children, messing around, being silly etc.
He does a LOT of martyred 'they don't listen to me' stuff in front of them. eg: 'what's the point of telling them to go to bed - they wont listen to ME - dramatic sigh etc'. They DONT listen to him though but I am not surprised as he's been 'telling them' they don't for years, iyswim?

I tend to just 'single parent' them as I deal with them mostly and it is quicker and easier that way? So I am certainly guilty of ignoring him now I suppose (which wont help with the lack of respect) because that way there are no arguments - it's just me and the kids getting on with it, and getting along?

OP posts:
Zazzles007 · 15/09/2014 00:32

Oh gosh MinderReader, the more you describe him, your family and his family, the more toxic it sounds Sad. I see that you are making moves to get away from him, and I think this is a really good move. Do you have much real life support? His family sound a bit barking to be honest, and I suspect that what you have described is only the tip of a rather large iceberg.

he tends to behave as though the children are being a nuisance

The way he treats your children is awful, and many others would not accept this sort of treatment of them. And I am in no way blaming you or anything. Children should be loved and cherished, otherwise they will grow up to have poor self esteem, possibly end up be bullied or being the bullies and multitude of other wrongs.

So I am certainly guilty of ignoring him now I suppose (which wont help with the lack of respect) because that way there are no arguments

Are you saying you have to modify your behaviour, otherwise he erupts/has a tantrum? I would interpret this as abuse, and hope that others will come onto your thread to confirm this. Even your nick name tells me a lot about your relationship - you have to 'mind read' his thoughts and emotions so that you can work out how to react. This is actually an indication of abuse.

Hang in there MindReader, sending you strength, courage and Thanks.

scallopsrgreat · 15/09/2014 00:44

Yep agree with Zazzles. He is abusive. That is awful about what happened in the park. So what if the children pushed him over you don't shout and swear at them and you don't let them return home and not appear for several hours.

It's all about him isn't it? I'd say he's already repeating the patterns of his father Sad.

You need legal advice about leaving and perhaps get in touch with Women's Aid. The Rights of women website may also be helpful.

Darkesteyes · 15/09/2014 00:44

Zazzles has nailed it. He is abusive because you are having to walk on eggshells around him. His family sound abusive too.

And treating his own children like a nuisance Sad

MindReader · 15/09/2014 07:49

Yes, I modify my behaviour so he doesn't lose his temper.
Certainly he behaves very differently when anyone else is around.
He is able to go to work and function normally interacting with the public all day long but not 'able to cope' (because of me) at home.

The weird thing is nothing - but nothing - is his 'fault' (responsibility).
Has he put the kettle on: 'no, because I'll do it wrong'.
Has he loaded the washing machine
'no, because you'll tell me I've done it wrong'
Has he paid the house insurance (we were uninsured for nearly a year, I discovered some years ago): 'no because you need to choose the insurer'.

When I came along for the walk with the children yesterday (which I wanted to do as I don't want him being unreliable again!) I did say to him that I would manage to cook the roast etc when we got home but not much else if I was using all my energy for the walk. In fact the walk was much tougher than I thought and I was shattered come 4.30pm.
The uniforms were ready, the kids bathed, dinner in the oven, house tidy (ish) but he still went to bed in a strop at 6pm because I had asked him a Qu about a text to his sister. Bugger whether I could get up the stairs to put kids to bed or not. That doesn't sound much but it is LOT to me (and the children - what must they think of Dad not being at dinner and up in his room and no goodnights? They didn't say a word which is telling, maybe Sad

I wonder how he lived a single (and prev married life) before we met (he was mid 30's).
He says it is all because I am domineering and bossy and controlling.
Confused

But, yes, either way, it is all about him.
I went out to a friends house for the evening once last year (once, mind).
He called me 7 times during the evening as 'the kids wont behave' (there is a lot of truth in this mind). At 11pm I gave up, embarrassed, and came home from friends Birthday Party. He was standing at the window, watching for my car 'to see me home safe'. Hmm

OP posts:
MindReader · 15/09/2014 08:03

And another 'little thing' ( I think I've opened the floodgates here)

He doesn't like the kids to speak at the mealtable.
Now ds has some sensory / issues so - if mid flow - will spoon cornflakes into his ear (literally...) and keep speaking whilst trying to chew a very large mouthful of something and it is pretty grim. Dd is better, but not a great deal! So H's method is to ignore them. Which leaves me to parry all Qu's, respond to all school chat etc as I try to cook serve and eat too, as he sits there in silence (or turns the radio up). He says that it 'encourages them' if you speak back.
They do need to simmer down and sit more quietly with their food but they are KIDS and will chuff on through meals.

It is the same if we are in the car, thinking about it.

OP posts:
Zazzles007 · 15/09/2014 08:12

Ugh MindReader, you are definitely in an abusive relationship:

  • You have to modify your behaviour to keep him sweet, but he can control his temper and behaviour around others - a classic abuse tactic

  • "Nothing is ever his fault" - another classic abuse tactic. They find a 'scapegoat' to blame everything and anything on. You seem to be 'it'.

  • You can't do anything 'right', ie its his way or the highway, it sounds like.

  • He calls you domineering, bossy and controlling, when the reality is that he is the domineering, controlling and bossy one.

  • No empathy or sympathy for others and is very self centred.

And he's not a real partner to you - can't look after the kids on his own, and doesn't pick up the slack if you are tired. Most likely its because emotionally and psychologically, he is still a child or teenager himself, and is unable to move beyond that. Not to mention his family sound like a nightmare. As you know, coming from a dysfunctional background (myself included in that one), that's where the majority of his problems originate.

So what do you want to do MindReader? Where would you like to be in say 3-6 months, or a year or 2 years?

MindReader · 15/09/2014 08:14

Away from him, no question.

Thanks for keeping coming back here Zazzles.

I have tried to leave a few times and it hasn't worked.

Each time he is MUCH worse after. Much

OP posts:
Zazzles007 · 15/09/2014 08:15

So H's method is to ignore them

And add, he leaves the parenting to you to the above list as well Sad. Horrid.

Zazzles007 · 15/09/2014 08:18

MindReader I can see you need a listening (reading?) ear, because you sound like a resilient and resourceful person, despite the things you have been through. Don't be afraid to reach out and get help both online and in real life when you need it. Sometimes us self-sufficient ones don't know when to yell for help Wink.

MindReader · 15/09/2014 09:14

Yes, certainly he leaves the parenting to me.
Unless one of the children has achieved 'something' and we are in front of other people, in which case he would literally elbow me out of the way to sing their praises whilst they look confused. it is ALL show.

eg, the children's rabbits. We adopted two rescues (slightly against my better judgement but hey). They have not been well handled so are jittery and can nip. Hence I do most of the looking after as they are big and wriggly and nippy. The kids tend to pat them and chat to them and photograph them to make slide shows and enjoy them that way. H went all 'fluffy bunny' about them and directed this (OTT) stream of affection their way, being far far nicer to the blinking rabbits than he was to us. Then they both bit him (a few times). Now he makes constant remarks about rehoming them (in front of kids) as 'they don't like him'. He huffs about and says: 'but they don't liiiiikeeee me' in this silly baby voice.
Is this just plain weird?

I am resilient but not very resourceful.
My childhood has left me feeling that this is what I deserve.
The children don't though.

OP posts:
Zazzles007 · 15/09/2014 10:07

Yep, the more you talk about him the more child-like and less of a partner I think he is. He really is quite dysfunctional in many ways, and I suspect that this is keeping you down. Keep on posting and writing your thoughts down. You've mentioned that you have tried to leave in the past, and I am guessing that he has reeled you back in with promises of change, begging, declarations of love etc etc, all designed to get you back where you were. This is another abusive tactic as well.

Unless one of the children has achieved 'something' and we are in front of other people, in which case he would literally elbow me out of the way to sing their praises whilst they look confused. it is ALL show.

This is really, really dysfunctional, my parents do a version of this as well. As said above, everything relates to him. He is not interested in the DC unless they have done something that is worth claiming as his own achievement. I bet he then crows about them.

Then they both bit him (a few times). Now he makes constant remarks about rehoming them (in front of kids) as 'they don't like him'. He huffs about and says: 'but they don't liiiiikeeee me' in this silly baby voice.

That's the thing I have found about animals - they see really quickly whether you are capable of making a connection with them or not. The fact that he huffs and makes it all about him just backs up his lack of empathy. Gosh he just sounds like a big child, and you would be better off looking after just 2 children and not 3 Sad.

I think it would be a good idea to get to a place where you feel strong enough mentally and emotionally to leave him and to stick to that. And btw, you DO deserve something better in your life, there are those of us here who have had a very dysfunctional upbringing, and you can go beyond it. One step at a time...

Wishing you strength and courage MindReader.

MindReader · 15/09/2014 10:35

"Yep, the more you talk about him the more child-like and less of a partner I think he is. He really is quite dysfunctional in many ways, and I suspect that this is keeping you down. Keep on posting and writing your thoughts down. You've mentioned that you have tried to leave in the past, and I am guessing that he has reeled you back in with promises of change, begging, declarations of love etc etc, all designed to get you back where you were. This is another abusive tactic as well. "

Actually, it is worse than that Blush
He stopped doing this ages ago.
He WANTS us gone and doesn't hide it.
Of course it is 'all for the benefit of the school for ds' (local school is completely completely unsuitable for ds needs and has been a cause of enormous strain) so this is true, but it is ALSO beneficial for him.
Because I am entirely dependent on benefits, it is almost impossible to get a landlord to take me on. It is really really hard.
We need quite a specific kind of school for ds.
additionally, I need a decent bit of garden as it is hard for me to walk far with the kids.
I thought I had found a 'good enough' set up a couple of times but it has fallen through. Previously due to my wobbling which made LL nervous, but recently due to LL just getting the wobbles herself re my benefits. H is DESPERATE for us to go. He says he 'cant relax' with me 'in the house' despite having his own bedroom with TV set up etc which he 'retires' to at about 6pm very frequently.
He has been so keen for us to go that he has even booked a removal van before, when it looked likely.... Gleefully. If he was a dog he would have been wagging his tail. He wants us gone. All of us. He will then turn up at weekends and 'play' with the children for an afternoon, but that will be it. I think it would be better for them to have him for a short while when he can cope than a longer while when he cant.
Apparantly, he is being 'selfless' by offering to stay with a friend in town to 'let us move'.
He cant (wont?) move his job and we need to be about 50m away for the school.
He cant afford a flat and any maintenance so will 'have to stay with my friend (another middle aged man).
Of course, if it takes 2 years for the marital home to sell, he will live there meantime, peaceful with us annoying family out of the way, happy as Larry.

OP posts:
Zazzles007 · 15/09/2014 11:01

Sweetheart, this is sounding more and more awful. I think that you have been abused and manipulated by this arsehole for so long that he has twisted everything so that you will dance to his tune. You are married, and the house is not just 'his', it is yours as well. And he is trying to turf you and the children out! What about child maintenance? What about providing a home for his children (btw, are they his children?). If they are his children, legally he does have to provide for them. Also are you in the UK? It is easier for people to advise if they know which country you are in.

I know its hard with everything going on, but have you seen a solicitor yet, to find out what your rights are in this marriage? I can't stress how important this is - you have rights in this marriage and he is determined to stomp all over them. Get rid of this arsehole with law behind you - he won't like that, but the laws are there to look after women in your situation.

Find 3-4 solicitors who deal in divorce and call them up to have an initial chat to them, and see which ones offer the free 1/2 hour consultation. Then see the ones you can and talk them through your situation. It looks like he is trying really hard to leave you and your children homeless and destitute without a source of income. If you are in the UK, there are laws and people who can help you with that. Do not tell the arsehole any of what you are discussing on MN - this is a place for your support. Also Women's Aid is another organisation you can contact for advice if you are in the UK.

Strength and courage, Mindreader Thanks, and one step at a time.

JetsAndSugar · 15/09/2014 11:13

Jesus wept.

It really really sounds like he is planning to shaft you completely when you move out. In fact, it sounds like you are already being royally shafted.

See a solicitor. Talk to Womens Aid.

MindReader · 15/09/2014 11:17

Yes UK - well, till Friday maybe? I am in Scotland!!! Confused

yes, they are his children. You have to sign everything in triplicate with IVF so it is the least likely way of children being 'someone else's' (although, as I say he did the whole 'are they really mine' thing for ageeeeeeeeees afte. There had been an unfortunate story in the papers about a clinic mix up and he just couldnt get past it).
They both look exactly like him as they have grown, which helps.

The complication is that I don't WANT to stay in the house.
It is big, leaky, cold, expensive to run and unsuitable in every way re my mobility.
It's no good for kids either (busy road, no garden etc)
Most importantly - the local schooling is dire, esp for ds with his SEN.

We have agreed that I and the kids will move around 50m away.
I am happy with that.
In an ideal world, a (very modest) house would be mortgaged for me and kids, but I cant get a mortgage in my name only not working atm.
He says he will do this, but once the house is sold I cant make him, I realise that.

He was ranting at me last night about how I was 'going to go and live in a nice house and take all my nice things with me, whilst he would have to kip with a friend in his cluttered house'. I pointed out that renting a part furnished house on benefits was hardly desireable for us.
Also, as a person who'd been able to maintain a fulltime job (and pension) for years (whilst due to childcare costs and SN limitations I looked after a child with SN/SEN despite my own physical limitations whilst using my DLA for family food etc), I had enabled that to happen.
But he doesn't 'see' that.

I think a lawyer could help me stay here.
But I don't want to be here even if he went.
I really really don't.

OP posts:
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