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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Seeing NC relative at a party. Scared!! (long)

20 replies

NCmeansNC · 25/08/2014 15:08

I've been NC with my father for about 9 months, so not long. The reasons for it are a whole other thread but mostly I just got fed up with his drama and sulks (since his oodles of hours of therapy he's declared himself an emotional person and very in touch with his feelings. Other people's not so much.) He's not an ogre, or dangerous (he was occasionally violent when I was a child, mostly towards DM, but by and large he's placid) but I really don't like him, cringe at being in the same room as him, near him and the last straw that made me tell him to just leave off trying to have a relationship with me came as a relief - I was almost looking for any excuse to cease contact. He was an indifferent father when I was a child and he's not convincing now. He has two other daughters, with whom he also has a difficult relationship, but I'm the only one who's told him to leave me alone. He lives in another country so contact is rare, anyway.

My sister is having her 40th birthday party next weekend. Her DH (out of courtesy) sent her (our) father an invitation (4 months ago) but got no reply so assumed it was a not attending (this not replying is one of the reasons I'm NC. It was common for me not to get replies from him at all or months later - which I didn't mind, yet he'll send me a mega stroppy email when I haven't replied to his after 4 days). Her DH sent another reminder about the party 2 months ago but again no reply. Then Friday out of the blue he emails her DH to say he will be there.

Now BIL and Dsis are in a panic because our DM (divorced from him for 20 years) will be there and won't want to be in the same room as him and I will be there and ditto. I actually don't think I'd have a major problem with his being there. I'm not afraid of him and we can both be adult and civil but I'm nervous because my two DC will be going. He hasn't met either of them (DS1 is 2 and DS2 is 5 mo).

I can't put my finger on why, but I prefer he didn't meet them. When I announced my pregnancy with DS1 (I'm the only daughter to have children, so far) I thought he would want to make up for being such a rubbish dad by being an involved grandfather, but nope. My handmade card went unheeded. I rang him after a couple of weeks to see whether he'd got the card I made with the news in. He had, just not responded. He didn't say he couldn't be arsed to congratulate, but it's the message I got. His reaction was underwhelmed to say the least. He also made no attempt to come and see his grandson once he was born, so I figured he's not all that bothered and decided I liked it that he hadn't met my new family. A sense of 'screw you then', I suppose.

I went NC with him shortly before Christmas (partly down to a pass agg Christmas card but also another toys out the pram email) . The day AFTER I'd told him to forget it he sent four massive boxes from Amazon with presents for DS. He easily spent 4x as much as we had on our son. I checked the order date and it was definitely the day after I'd told him to not contact me again - what is that all about?

He recently sent my DH an email. In it he suggest DH keep quiet about this email (DH told me about it anyway) to try to talk me round. I ignore any emails he sends me now, as part of being NC so I guess he got desperate but I don't like his trying to put DH in such a difficult position. DH has no axe to grind with him but he's loyal to me and respects my decision and feelings.

So, I know my father. He is only going to my sister's birthday because he wants to see my two boys. He will be like a paparazzo, following them about (he has form on this - photographing whether you like it or not) and I won't be able to just make sure I'm in another room as him,as I'll have the baby and toddler with me - who are the real reason he's going - I know this because he has never attended any birthday event for any of his daughters. Ever.

I don't want to miss my sister's birthday party. She and I are close and I know it means a lot to her. She is stressing about it for my and DM's sake. I'm stressing about it because I don't want him following my children around (or even meet them, if I'm honest). I feel like a bad person for feeling that way. Any tips, advice or a grip?

OP posts:
CSIJanner · 25/08/2014 15:13

Can you and your other see your sister in the morning and spend some time with each ther then you and your mum can go me and spend the afternoon with your children?

Hissy · 25/08/2014 15:25

Why the fuck did your prick of a BIL have to send a reminder?? Tbh, given everyone's feelings about him, no invitation should ever have been issued to him.

Now you'll have to NOT attend/protect your DC from him by making alternative arrangements. Is there any chance he won't show up?

ButEmilylovedhim · 25/08/2014 15:44

Could you go on your own, leaving the DSs with DH? Or could someone else have the boys so DH is with you? It sounds a very hard situation to be in and I understand about you not wanting him to meet your DSs.

springydaffs · 25/08/2014 15:55

You're going to have to send a cold, factual email - or perhaps DH could send it - detailing what you expect eg 1. He will not follow dc's around photographing them 2. He is to expect a perfunctory introduction and not to push for more. (Or no introduction at all) etc. I would actually bullet-point it, so it is absolutely clear

You have to put in rigid boundaries around people like this imo. If he wants to repair things, he can discuss how with his therapist.

jackydanny · 25/08/2014 16:06

Don't take DC if you are not comfortable.

Could you go for a couple of hours alone or with a friend in the evening?
Get DH to be with DC or DM if she isn't going to attend.
Be polite, pleasant and brief.
Try and avoid open questions with him and give closed responses, 'fine thank you' 'that's kind' etc.

Use your intuition!

Jennco · 25/08/2014 16:11

I would spend the morning with your mum and sisters, If your mum doesn't feel like going ask her if she would look after the children. If you don't want the children to meet this man, then DON'T!
Keep them away from the party, I am certain your sister will understand. Your kids, your rules!

Another possibility, Is your Mother In law capable of babysitting the night at her house?

NCmeansNC · 25/08/2014 17:26

Having the dc stay with DM if she decides to stay at home or go home early is maybe going to be the best solution. Although ds2 is exclusively breastfed.

He will definitely attend as he is coming from abroad.

BIL meant well inviting him. I think he underestimated the degree to which he'd be a pork chop at a Jewish wedding (a terrible expression but you get the idea).

maybe intl go but take the dc out in the pushchair for a nap (the party is during the toddler's normal nap time).

I'm relieved no one thinks I'm being daft trying to keep my dc for myself. I can't put my finger on why.

OP posts:
Cakecrumbsinmybra · 25/08/2014 17:38

It's probably not the right answer, but to be honest if it were me, I just wouldnt go.

NCmeansNC · 26/08/2014 15:17

I've been mulling this over more (it is keeping me awake and I have an insomniac baby keeping me awake through the night) and discussed with DH.

He says we should go. His reasoning is my father only wants to see the dc because it's embarrassing when people ask: 'do you have any grandchildren?' and he says yes, but can't tell them any more than that (not what they look like, how they act, whom they resemble). He made no effort to see DS1 (nor sent him anything for his 1st birthday) before we went NC and he'll probably not make an effort after. He'll see them next week and get that out of his system. Hiding them from him might just make things worse. He'll pester.

Maybe DH is right. He'll be there with me if things get complicated. I suspect it'll just be really awkward. Neither DC will know or care who this old man. I'll grit my teeth through the paparazzo sessions, but if DS1 gets distressed I'll step in.

OP posts:
sykadelic · 26/08/2014 15:31

I don't agree that taking the children so he can "get it out if his system" is a good idea. I'd leave the children with someone, best you can with breastfeeding, and take one picture of each child so if he asks you can give him those. Then you control the situation/images of your children.

I'm not sure I read it, how far is the party from your home?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/08/2014 15:45

Hi NC,

Your DH is wrong here re the party, totally so. He unlike your good self likely comes from a family whereby such familial dysfunction is totally unknown thankfully so does not really get the facts about dealing with toxi relatives like your Dad. He needs to continue to back your original decision to go NC. The "normal" rules of dealing with familial relations do not apply to toxic relatives like your Dad. Going no contact is a decision that is never made at all lightly and often after much soul searching as well. You could well end up hating your DH for making you attend at all because this could all go so wrong so very quickly.

Your DH should also ignore any e-mails that your dad sends; your dad put your DH in an awkward position by doing that. It was done by your dad to reassert his own now limited power and control over you and your family, same with the gifts. Such are NEVER given without conditions attached. Also such behaviour is known as hoovering and is often done by those who want to cling on regardless and try and draw you back into their own dysfunctional world.

The toxic hooverer doesn’t truly care about you either — they just want to keep you around to feed on emotionally, and when you decide to go no contact, they don’t plan on letting you get away that easily.

Many hooverers have traits of borderline, narcissistic, antisocial or histrionic personality disorders. You can click the green & purple buttons to the lower right to find out if that may describe the person hoovering you. People with Dependent Personality Disorder may also hoover.

Hoovering is manipulation to gain control over your choice to distance yourself, and typically takes the following forms:

•Ignoring your requests to break off the relationship and attempting to continue on as if nothing has changed.
.
•Asking you when you’re going to “get over it” and return to your past actions.
.
•Sending you a fake apology to give you hope that things have changed.
.
•Trying to trick you into contact by saying someone needs you, is sick, or in trouble.
.
•Triangulating with others, communicating things to you through them.
.
•Saying they’re worried about you, concerned about whether you’re okay, need to know where you are, etc.
.
•Sending unwanted cards, messages and gifts, sometimes gifts for your children, as they know you are likely to feel guilty about keeping a gift from your kids. Don’t allow this – exposing your children to manipulation is far worse!!!!
.
•Returning old items you left behind.
.
•Baiting you with drama games.
.
•Contacting you about “important” things they “forgot” and suddenly have to tell you.

Attempts to pull you back into a toxic relationship are not valid expressions of caring and concern — they are attempts to regain control over your behaviour. Beware — hoovering attempts are often disguised as caring, loneliness, hurt, desperation, fear, illness, and other things designed to play on your sympathies and pull you back. Abusers know that pulling on heartstrings works very well. (In the case of BPD, it may be simply out-of-control emotions and fear of abandonment more than an attempt to control you per se; however you will likely still feel that you are not being allowed to end a relationship you no longer want).

If your wish to end a relationship is not being honoured, whatever a toxic person thinks will work best on you will be what they try, so when one angle doesn’t work, they will try another, and another, ramping up their efforts until it seems they might never stop. Typically, hoovering DOES stop if the person being hoovered does not fall for the hooverer’s tricks.

The sooner the person being hoovered completely ignores everything and does not respond to anything at all in any way, the sooner the toxic person finally understands that they do not have the control. Some toxic people may still make the occasional attempt on holidays, anniversaries of events, etc. Don’t bite the bait. Simply ignore any attempts.

If you have already made it clear that you do not want a relationship (or if it’s obvious) then DON’T ever contact the person doing the hoovering to tell them to stop again, or how angry you are. That is a reward. They will be thrilled to receive your attention and pleased to know that their efforts have paid off by snagging you, so they’ll be contacting you even more!

Your Dad is not above pestering you (you've already had unwanted gifts for them; btw what happened to those?) and you think he's going to follow them around like a lost puppy and taking photos of them to boot. It is your job amongst many to protect your children from such malign influences like that of your Dad. You went no contact with the man so radio silence from you needs to be maintained. It's no good trying to be even more assertive in his presence because he could well cut you down with just a look or snide comment.

If he is too toxic for you to deal with its the same deal for both your vulnerable and defenceless children. He was and remains a toxic father to you and he is a toxic grandfather to his grandchildren.

It only takes a look, a snide comment or a pinch and the damage is already done right in front of your very eyes; its that quick. The two of you will not be able to stop your dad from taking photos for instance. You will be completely blindsided and you will not be left alone.

What is it with the men here in this scenario; your sister's DH did his own bit of messing up here by inviting Dad along to the party in the first place!.

jackydanny · 26/08/2014 16:01

He is using DH as leverage.
Is it magical thinking to imagine in 10 years he will use DC as leverage?
Follow your in-tuition.

minniemagoo · 26/08/2014 16:45

OP, I can totally get where you are coming from, I am now NC with my mother but when the kids were younger we were still in a bit of contact, She'd never ask about the kids but be all over them at parties etc where other people are, I thought my kids rarely gave her a thought but my eldest told me about 6 months ago she freaks her out, and that was it. I thought they knew nothing of my problems with her and I had insulated them from her behaviour but I was wrong.
In your situation I would leave the kids behind, tbh I would feel sorry for your sister but probably not go myself.

NCmeansNC · 02/09/2014 15:29

Thank you all for your input. I thought you might like to hear how it went. We did all go to DSis's party. My father was there but I avoided areas where he was. He tried to say hello to DS1 (2y), bu he was having none of it. He turned his face away and when the strange grown-up moved even closer (and I mean about 3 inches from his face) he turned his head even further, like an owl. My one regret is not stepping in then. Instead I said: he's shy. Give him some space. I should have scooped up my little boy then and there and saved him from the awkward situation. Regret it now.

He tried to say hello to DS2 (5mo) but he was indifferent. There were so many things to look at and he's at the 'likes to stare at faces' age.

Later, my father tried to engage me in conversation in the kitchen. I managed some very stilted small talk about his retirement, but when he said: "it's not right that we don't write" I ummed and made a dash for it.

DH was also engaged in conversation and was asked for photographs of the DC. He gave a similarly reply of 'mmh' and left.

I have been expecting more emails as a follow up, but have not heard anything. I'm furious with myself for not picking up my little boy when a big, scary, strange man failed to respect his personal space. He was only saying hello but you wouldn't move in so close to someone you've never met before. Two year olds have boundaries, too.

Still, there are no plans for him to ever see the dc again (unfortunately I'm attending a wedding he'll be at in November, though sans kids).

Thank you all for your input. Attila I can see many steps in the hoovering technques that I recognise, though I do wonder how many of those are reasonable things ANYONE would do if someone cuts contact. However, you are spot on about DH coming from a very good family. Although his family are not perfect (whose is) they are very supportive and loving to one another. That is a stable core that always holds true, so how my father behaves he finds mystifying. He says about him: 'you can't reach him'. Meaning you will never get him to see your side of things. He's a narcissist. Not only can he not exercise empathy in terms of: this person is different to me and therefore may react in their own way, which is equally legitimate; but he doesn't even seem to do empathy stage 1 (what would I do in their situation).

Still, at least the party is over with. I think BIL learned his lesson, too.

OP posts:
Meerka · 02/09/2014 16:16

NC, have you read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward? I'm thinking it might be very good not so much for you, but for your husband. Like you say, people from decent or even reasonable homes don't understand how the dynamics work in toxic families. This book explains quite well and might help your husband.

Unrealhousewife · 02/09/2014 16:30

It sounds to me that in some ways you are actually desperate to get his attention. You sent him a card and he didn't respond and that was enough to make you think 'up yours' and not avoid contact in the future? Perhaps you are seeking his approval still?

I'm not saying he isn't a nasty person and the fact that he was violent with your mother most definitely means he is, but I think you are a bit confused about what you want or don't want from him. I wonder whether, if he turned tomorrow and did all the right things you would be fine with that and accept him.

Perhaps deep down you are more traumatised about his violence than you think. If the violence of the past was the case you could put a finger on the problem, look him straight in the eye and tell him why you don't want contact or what your boundaries are. As it is you are giving him mixed messages by reaching out to him and then spurning or avoiding him.

You say yourself you can't put your finger on the problem. I think you need to identify what the problem is and be very clear with yourself and with him about it.

My family always miss things, forget dates, forget cards, it just happens.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 02/09/2014 16:38

That is one of many problems with narcissists; their manipulation and lack of boundaries can all kick off right in front of you and you feel powerless to act. I am glad to read that you will no longer be exposing your children to him any longer; stick to that!!!. They certainly do not need his emotional manipulation and for that matter nor do you. It is painful to watch a narcissist interact with their grandchildren mainly because there is no interaction. They also make for being very poor models as grandparents.

I would reconsider going to that wedding in November as well. No good will come of it if you are unfortunate enough to be in the same room as your dad again and you could feel stymied again.

"I can see many steps in the hoovering technques that I recognise, though I do wonder how many of those are reasonable things ANYONE would do if someone cuts contact".

Hoovering is never reasonable behaviour or done out of any real concern. Its not done for your benefit but mainly theirs. They want to draw you back in to their own dysfunctional world.

I cannot emphasise enough the narcissists complete lack of empathy; they have none.

I would suggest you read "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina Brown and give your DH a copy of Toxic Parents. I thought he had come from an emotionally healthy family of origin.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 02/09/2014 16:44

You went NC with him originally for good reason. Having any contact with him at all now has put you firmly back at square one and you now have to start again. He was an abusive tyrant when you were growing up and he fundamentally has not altered.

Work on you, I would suggest counselling to talk to someone about your dad and preferably a counsellor who has got a lot of experience with regards to NPD. Also you need to find someone who has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

I realise it was your sisters party as well but your BIL was a complete and utter fool to ever invite this man in the first place. I hope that he and your DH have now learnt some lessons re dysfunctional relatives.

These people simply do not act in the ways that emotionally healthy individuals do.

Unrealhousewife · 02/09/2014 16:44

I don't think it's wise to miss big family events on account of him. I think you should do the opposite, just be bigger and better than him. Family events are an important opportunity to communicate to other family members what's going on. Also your children need to see your family in some kind of perspective.

I wonder whether at the last event it was the possible conflict between your mother and him that worried you - you said that was your siblings concern.

FunkyBoldRibena · 02/09/2014 18:40

Hi OP - I've just read this but if it ever comes up again, make sure you face paint your kids so that he can't actually see their faces. Just to spite him.

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