Just need to get this off my chest

[yuio]

Apologies in advance, this will probably turn out to be a long post. I am not sure what I want from posting here - I just feel I need to get things straight in my head and record them somehow, and perhaps I need to feel listened to.

So, background - DP and I have been together for 9 years, not married, 2 DCs aged 4yo and 2yo. Recently moved but DP still working in our old location so I live in family house with DCs full time but he lives in flat 3 nights a week and here 4 nights a week.

From the beginning we argued a lot. Big stinking arguments where we wouldn't talk for ages, lots of flouncing out and sulking on both sides. We broke up and got back together twice (both break ups initiated by me). In the early days we both drunk a lot, and a lot of the arguments were about DP saying he was off for 'one drink' and then rolling home 8 hours later completely smashed. But we also argued a lot about petty stuff that just spiralled from a small disagreement to a big shouting match.

DP stopped drinking around 4 or 5 years ago and with a couple of exceptions has barely drunk since.

A few weeks ago we had a huge, horrible argument. It started with a hypothetical discussion about spending money, and it quickly got quite heated as I was upset with some things he was saying about how he viewed the money he earns (I gave up work after DC2, he earns much more than I ever could.) He got angry at something I said and called me a 'money-grabbing cunt'. Our 4yo daughter was in the room at the time.

There was screaming on both sides, and often when we argue I analyse what I have done as well as what he has done and plan to 'do better' next time. I have read a lot about assertiveness and communication for example in an effort to improve how I express myself and manage disagreements.

However, this time I knew a line had been crossed, and that this was something I could not ignore. I was and still am so angry that he called me that, in front of our daughter. He has previously on a couple of occasions referred to me as a bitch, and then I told him how totally unacceptable I found that, how I thought all name-calling was bullying behaviour and shouldn't be modelled to our children, but also how I hated the use of that word in particular.

So, I repeatedly told him how upset this had made me, and at first he tried to justify it, and downplayed the effect it would have on our children. I was quite emotional at that point and there was a lot of crying.

We have had a week apart as I have been back in the family home with the children so I have had the space to think. I have realised that I need a total and full apology and acceptance of the gravity of this episode to move on, and the anger that it has brought up has made me realise how unhappy I am with other aspects of our relationship. I finally feel clear in my mind about where my bottom lines are.

We had a long talk on Friday. I didn't go into all details of what I wanted to change but said that I was tired of arguing, disgusted by that particular argument, and that I needed to know he was sorry and that he was willing to try to commit to making things better, discussing how we communicate, trying to change, in order to be able to continue.

He was resistant at first. Finally admitted though that swearing and shouting in front of the children is not good and that he doesn't want to do it. He got angry about being given what he saw as an ultimatum - which he saw as the relationship being on my terms or I will leave. He sulked for a day (said he was ill and didn't come out of his room) but I told him I wanted him to get up today and take the children out to give me some time to myself, and he has done so. He has apologised and said he is willing to work on things.

When he was being grumpy and sullen and saying, "I don't know if I want to work on things when you are like this" etc. I was starting to wobble, and feel sad about us no longer being a little gang as a family, not seeing him bond with the kids (he is a very playful, fun Dad, but as you might expect has never put in the effort to make it 50/50 when we are both around).

However, now he is back to a more normal self, and we are talking again, I am starting to feel a bit hopeless; I'm not sure I want this (i.e. this relationship).

I do feel I ought to give it a go - if we can salvage a loving, respectful, enjoyable relationship out of this mess, then I think it would be best for our children to have two loving parents together with them. They would also have more stability and we have a lovely life up here in terms of material comforts and so on. Otoh, I'm not sure in my heart I have enough love to want to try and fix things. I have a very long list of things I want to change, and I know it will be a struggle.

The good thing is that despite all the heartache and sadness of considering all this over the last week, I feel so much clearer and stronger than I have previously when I have felt unhappy in our relationship. I know that I have to create my own happiness, and I realised that I have to be a lot more selfish in order to be a happier person who is able to give more of myself to my children and have honest relationships with people around me. I grew up with a very dominating father, and I have a very ingrained habit of considering what I think other people might think and being nervous of that rather than considering what I want. In fact for most of my life I have found it extremely difficult even to be able to hear from myself what it is that I want.

God, this is virtually a novel already so I think I will just leave it there for now. I have the house to myself for once so I should go and make the most of that. I will probably not be able to get online again until evening, so if you make it all the way through and have anything to say to me then massive thanks in advance!

It sounds as though the line was actually crossed quite some time ago but your solution each time - same as this more recent example - is to place the line a little further away in the interests of 'giving it another go'. Your bottom line is currently non-existent, you're not taken seriously and his lack of respect for you is clear. When it takes someone to call you a cunt in front of little children to finally make you see the light, then I think it's safe to say that your self-esteem is rock bottom.

If you had been subjected to this behaviour in the first few weeks or months, pre DC etc, then (I hope) you would have told him to get lost. If anything, having children witnessing this abuse and having grown up with an intimidating father in the house should be your motivation to act.

Best of luck

Cogito, thanks for replying. And for the luck.

It is weirdly hard for me to hear someone saying I must have no self-esteem, because I really thought I did. I feel terribly guilty for having put up with things that I shouldn't have put up with.

I want to do what is right for my children. If I leave I can't imagine DP ever being reasonable with me, and he has such different perceptions of risk that I would forever worry when I had to leave kids with him.

I do know on some level that I can't go on, that I need to make the decision to leave then work out how to do it, but it is like I can only face up to that reality a little at a time, then I put it aside and just get on with stuff for a bit longer, because it is too painful.

I will have to move the children again. I feel so bad for them that they have hardly any friends and that they really love it here, but I have no friends or family anywhere near so I can not imagine staying. I have no job to hold me here either. I don't know what my financial situation would be. I don't know how they and I would have to live.

which he saw as the relationship being on my terms or I will leave

It's actually perfectly ok to set out your boundaries and what will happen if they are broken.

I think this is what you need to do now, together. Make a list of what the boundaries and and, most importantly, what will happen if they are crossed. Then you can each decide if you can live within the other's boundaries.

It makes it more of a joint decision, rather than one person breaking up the relationship. It also gives both of you a chance to decide if you want to commit to change to make the relationship work.

It could be a simple as, one more personal insult and that's it. If a person cannot control themselves enough to do that it will become apparent very early on.

I can understand that sense of only being able to face the reality a bit at a time. That's OK.

I think cog is right about placing the line a bit further away each time. It's what tends to happen. Very few people really do quit at the first sign of trouble - 'why throw it all away, it's just a one off / we were both stressed / there are children to think of / I need to manage my own responses better' - time passes, your tolerance increases incrementally, until one day you realise he's called you a money -grabbing xxx. And that may be what he actually thinks.

It sounds as if the apology and promise to work on things isn't quite acting as the solution you thought it would? It could be that something is broken this time and it will be harder to fix.

Whether that is true remains to be seen.

I do want to point out though, that those of us who have learnt to 'create our own happiness'; or who are constantly learning to manage or improve our responses through assertiveness, or communication skills, or whatever, are often close to someone who is unreasonably selfish and/or aggressive towards us. 'We can only change ourselves', so on we go to try some new technique to improve the relationship.

If nothing ever works, and you're still looking, the problem runs deeper than interaction skills. Then it's better to get away.

"I want to do what is right for my children"

You said yourself that you grew up with a domineering father. I realise that you have understandable fears about what the future would look like as two independent households, but you can predict your children's future if you do nothing based on your own direct experience.

If you want to make an independent future a little less scary, this would be a good opportunity to do some research (finances, accommodation, legal) and find out your rights and responsibilities. You're not married which is a specific circumstance to be taken into account. If he's not there a lot of the time, you've got space to work. The more knowledge you have, the more confident you're likely to feel.

Sorry if the comment about low self-esteem threw you. It's often the case that someone will tolerate worse and worse treatment for themselves, but when someone else gets the same treatment or is caught in the cross-fire, suddenly they see it as unacceptable. It always was.

trackrbird that makes a lot of sense to me. thank you

fairenuff - I actually made two lists recently - one of things I will not tolerate, and one of things I want or need from a relationship. If I outlined these and consequences it would certainly make it clearer how things were going to happen going forward.

The thing about growing up with a domineering father, is that I know that it can be done, if that makes sense. My mother has her own friends and pursuits and derives a lot of pleasure from them. It still makes me sad that there are areas where my Dad restricts her life or she finds it very difficult to make changes etc. but they have companionship and they have a pretty good life and they are ok. Likewise, I appreciate some of my Dad's traits and I have built quite a good relationship with him as an adult. I have good and bad memories of my childhood. I don't know what our childhood would have been like had my parents separated.

No need to apologise re self-esteem by the way cogito; I have just never thought of myself that way, so it is interesting rather than upsetting. I had fairly severe depression and anxiety in my early twenties, with a host of self-destructive behaviours, which looking back must have indicated low self-esteem then. I have never been proud of anything I have done (I am proud of my DC but that is different). But for some reason I have just never thought about myself in terms of having low self-esteem. I suppose - and this sounds stupid written down but it is what springs to mind - because I consider myself attractive and more or less a good person.