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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Bisexual dd, is there any extra support she might need?

20 replies

Dragonlet · 12/08/2014 17:19

Dd (15) has just told me she is bisexual. This is fine with me, hopefully that is obvious. When she told me I just said "that's fine, you're still you" and teased her about fancying someone, which is what I would have done if she had told me about a boy she fancies.

What I hope to find out from this thread is if there is anything I can/should do extra to help her seeing as being bisexual is not something i know anything about really. I have a couple of friends who are lesbians but they aren't really close enough for me to have quizzed them about what it would have been useful for their parents to have done/said when they came out. So if anybody knows a bit more about it than me, could you give me some pointers?

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CartwheelCate · 12/08/2014 17:33

That's great that she's told you, and your reaction sounds very relaxed and hopefully will have reassured your dd.
I'm gay and it was very hard for me to come out as an adult, but I know bisexual friends have struggled in ways that were harder in many ways. The thing is, people can be quite disparaging about bisexuals along the lines of 'can't make up your mind', 'greedy' etc. Also, when they are with someone of the opposite sex people sometimes think that means it was just a phase and they are not really bi, and when they are with someone of the same sex they are probably gay but just not admitting it. If you google 'bisexual erasure' or biphobia you may find more on these issues.

It may be that your dd is actually gay but either doesn't know it yet or can't deal with it herself, or it may be that is indeed bi, or she may eventually identify completely differently. Either way, it is for no one but her to declare what she is. The best thing you can do to support her is believe what she says and back her up if other people start spouting this nonsense. They may not mean to be malicious but sometimes people feel they have to say something and come out with this hurtful rubbish.

Caramelkate · 12/08/2014 17:40

Hi, my dd (16) is bisexual, she has had crushes on lots of boys in the past, 1 gay relationship and currently has only gay crushes that I'm aware of. I found a lgbt youth group locally and gave her the details ( though I live in a city, so you might not have one locally). The only thing that has changed from her coming out is that I have limited sleepovers, as I wouldn't have previously let boys stay so now I am unsure about whether girls should. This was after a long discussion with a gay friend who said that she would definitely be experimenting on sleepovers! We have also had a few chats about keeping things private, and how done people are not out, and that is their choice- her last girlfriend was not out and my dd outed her at school, without realising this would be an issue, as she is so confident in her own choices, and had support, whereas her gurlfriend's parents were less open I think.

Dragonlet · 12/08/2014 17:46

Thanks Cate. I'm glad you think my reaction was along the right lines.

Dp has been guilty of saying bisexual people are 'greedy' in the past but I have told him not to be so rude about people and he's better about keeping to respectful comments now, so at least she won't have to cope with that within our household. As far as I'm concerned she can have relationships with anybody she likes and I will take each relationship as it comes and be polite/friendly to any boyfriends/girlfriends she may bring home.

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Dragonlet · 12/08/2014 17:51

Thanks to you as well Caramel. I might look into finding a lgbt youth group if there is one around here, but we don't live in a big city so I'm not sure how likely it is that we'll find one she can get to. Sleepovers are a bit of a worry, but she doesn't have many anyway, and the ones she does have tend to involve a bigger group which I wouldn't have thought would be an ideal time for experimentation. I hadn't thought about her outing anyone, but she's so quiet that she's unlikely to do that but it might be worth mentioning to her anyway.

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chaseface · 12/08/2014 18:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Dragonlet · 12/08/2014 18:04

I wouldn't want her experimenting with a boy at this age, although I know lots of teenagers do, so I'd like to apply the same rules to girls as well. I don't remember any experimentation going on at sleepovers when i was a teenager, maybe I just wasn't invited to experiment and everyone else was doing it while I was asleep.

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Caramelkate · 12/08/2014 18:06

For me, I wouldn't let boyfriends stay over at 16, so won't allow girls ( well I allow some friends, it depends in the situation). I think it's pretty common for parents to not sanction sexual experimentation in their 15-16 year olds? Of course it may still happen, but as parents we set rules for our household. I don't think my dd us particularly mature either, and she is quite impulsive. If she was different, or in the months or years to come, I may change the rules. I certainly didn't let my Ds have girls stay until he was older.

itsbetterthanabox · 12/08/2014 19:31

The reason for stopping sleep overs with boyfriends is because male/female sex carries pretty high risks however lesbian sex does not so I don't see why you need to stop her having friends over. I am bi but I only had sexual experiences with my friend who was also bi, attracted to me and became my gf. It's not a free for all with any female friend! Most of them are straight.

chaseface · 12/08/2014 20:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Dragonlet · 12/08/2014 20:16

I wasn't imagining that it would be a free for all with all her female friends. Tbh, she's at home alone for a couple of hours after school each day, so if she's going to do anything that would be the time she'd do it, rather than when we're all home. I'm not really worried about her having sex at all atm, she's quite sensible so I think she'll wait til she's sure she's ready.

I'm more thinking about helping her with the emotional side of things and what extra challenges she will face what withmost people being straight and some people being bigots.

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Dragonlet · 12/08/2014 20:23

And no, I won't be banning sleepovers, although her group of friends don't seem to do many sleepovers anyway. I'm not sure why that is, but they've always been mostly birthday sleepovers with a whole group of them rather than just one friend at a time.

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Caramelkate · 12/08/2014 20:45

Im not banning all sleepovers at all. But for instance, her last girlfriend was quite a dominant character. My dd may well have done things she isn't ready for, and felt I was sanctioning it by allowing a sleepover (they had previously had sleepovers a couple of times), but I didn't allow it. She has sleepovers with her regular friends still sometimes, though a lot of her peers are now drinking/clubbing, and she doesn't enjoy that, so its happened less than it used to, nothing to do with her sexuality. I'm not going into my dc's psychology on an internet page, but she has some experiences and history that make her more vulnerable than other girls - I'm sure every parent can make their own decisions, I was just answering a question from my point of view.

In terms of the emotional stuff and homophobia, I have talked to dd about public displays of affection and judging the situation -she and her gf went to a football match and we talked about what would and wouldn't be appropriate - very much with the line that other people are idiots and I don't want you to be in danger, rather than they should be ashamed, of course.

I don't think they listen more just because they are gay/bi though - I have to be careful, as with any teen, so I find the group a good support for her, as the leaders have been there and the young people are going through similar things. Sometimes she will say 'xxx said that too' referring to a group member, so I think I am on the right lines.

I work with young people, and on our recent training we were told it is very much a myth that lesbian sex is safer btw - while the risk of pregnancy isn't there, there are more STDs being recorded, and because of the myth, girls are less careful and somewhat ignored by services. I have several gay friends who have also encouraged me to be cautious rather than encouraging - just because they can't get pregnant doesn't mean they are mature enough for a sexual relationship, but while girls can use the 'I don't want to get pregnant' line with a boy, they can't with another girl, so it can cause its own issues.

saxtonier · 12/08/2014 22:00

I want to start by saying that you should be proud that your daughter is comfortable enough with you to come out at this (relatively) young age (average age for coming out is older), and that I think it is brilliant that you and your husband care so much to try and make this easy for her.

This is a little long, but I hope it is helpful in terms of helping you. I was aware I was into women at 15. I am now mid 30s. Other people define me as bisexual (I have been in serious relationships with both men and women), but I have never been comfortable with this definition. I don’t really define (and I am comfortable with this), but others are very desperate to align me to some sort of definition.

I think you and your husband may want to think about and educate yourself on the following issues. I gave a call around my friends and have done this from the perspective of what we would have most liked and wanted from our parents. My friends come from varying backgrounds of acceptance from their parents. I hope it is helpful and not daunting, but I suppose as a parent I always want more information (rather than less) so I know what I am up against! I hope you take this in that spirit.

Biphobia (from gay people)
It was a shock to me when I was young that some of the worse biphobia I have had came from the gay community. I know some lesbians who refuse to date any bisexuals, and are extremely fearful/rude about them. This comes down to the fear that bisexuals are simply ‘experimenting’ with women and then they will go off with a man (and the prior relationship with the woman will simply be reduced to a ‘phase’).

It is important that you teach your daughter about how to communicate honestly and transparently about what she wants. There is nothing wrong with wanting a casual relationship, but this needs to be communicated clearly, as she is much more susceptible to bi-bashing because of the assumptions others have raised about bisexuals being indecisive/ greedy/ selfish etc. You also don’t want your daughter to hurt others, and I know myself and many other women who have been badly hurt by a girl who later decided it was only an ‘experimentation’.

I agree with the other comments about consent in gay relationships. There is a widespread myth that control/ domestic violence doesn’t happen in lesbian relationships but it does, and your daughter needs education on that as much as in relationships she will have with men. Also, as Caramelkate commented, the risks aren’t just pregnancy and STIs. You should be aware, for example, that in a serious relationship with a girl, their hormones and cycles will sync up, meaning that a broken heart takes on a whole new painful, hormonally enjoined agony! Couple this with the ‘lesbian urge to merge’, the intensity of someone having the same body and gender as you (they understand you), and you will have a daughter in very intense pain. All break-ups are very painful, but if you talk to bisexual and lesbian women they often will describe break-ups with women as ‘worse’, ‘more intense’ and ‘more painful’.

Biphobia/ Homophobia from straight people
I think your daughter would appreciate you educating yourself as much as possible about gay issues and homophobia as she will be unable to avoid it. Some problems include:

o Butch/ femme and masculine/feminine – being forced into one of these definitions
o When dating a woman being asked ‘so which one is the man?’
o Random strangers thinking it is appropriate to ask about her sex life, and ‘what lesbians really do in bed’?
o People asking questions about lesbians in porn, and assuming this is what your daughter does in bed
o Men thinking it is acceptable to ask for a threesome, and that your daughter’s relationships with women are about them (If I had a penny for every time I had been asked for a threesome I’d be so rich!)
o Men threatening to ‘corrective rape’ your daughter or her girlfriend. This happens a lot and is terrifying
o Men threatening or actually beating bi and lesbian women up. This is more avoidable if the women involved are more ‘feminine’, but you should discuss what to do if they are in a group and one of their friends gets picked on
o People accusing her of being promiscuous/ selfish/ greedy/ indecisive/ ‘haven’t met the right man yet’
o People thinking it is acceptable to foist homophobic comments on her – ‘lesbians shouldn’t be able to have children’/ ‘gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed’/ ‘all gay people are promiscuous and spread HIV and STIs’/ it’s not a proper marriage/ parenting without a man
o Discussion with your daughter should include how to keep herself and her friends safe and how to support her friends with these issues
o If your daughter finally settles down with a woman then she will become to a lot of people ‘a lesbian’. If your daughter finally settles down with a man she will become to a lot of people ‘straight’. Her bi-identity will be denigrated and this is upsetting
o A lot of straight women now go to gay clubs/ venues, because generally things are more open, but also straight women have gay friends. Straight boys have realised this, so now you get straight men going to gay clubs hoping to pick up women. But some of these men are very misogynist and homophobic and won’t take ‘no’ for an answer. Your daughter should not assume she is safe from straight male assault because she is in a gay club (although they can feel safer because they have a very different vibe to straight venues)

Defining lesbian sex/ sex with women
I would open up a conversation with your daughter (when you deem her ready) about what she thinks lesbian sex is and how it can be defined. There are multiple definitions amongst lesbians, and she should think about her own definition and how to negotiate discussions about this with other women. For example, does it include: oral sex (not all lesbians like this as is assumed!), orgasm, fingering, fisting, love, grinding etc. I would also talk to her about porn and assumptions that come from that. For example, I do not know a single lesbian/ bisexual woman who does scissoring (have you seen the impossible angles!), yet this is often the primary act for two women in porn!

(It’s lame but) ‘The Joy of Lesbian sex’ is usually a good start for both you and your daughter.

I would also have a conversation about how to deal with teenage (and older) boys who learn about sex from porn, and think that: ‘it’s all about the penis and penetration’, all lesbian couples are there for male entertainment, anything women enjoy is denigrated to ‘foreplay’. As a teenager negotiating relationships for the first time, this really made me cry as I had some brilliant experiences with women, which then boyfriends told me I was frigid/abnormal for wanting a sexual relationship that didn’t only consist of penetration.

Also, your daughter will encounter differences in self-definition and complexities around behaviour, desire and identity. Some people will be very political about their identity and choices, some people will refuse to define, some people change their minds – all this is fine, but your daughter will need help negotiating these differences with respect and understanding

So key things for your daughter are: how to communicate her needs in relationships, how to deal with biphobia and homophobia, how to respect other’s choices in terms of self-definition, how to support other friends in these challenges, safe sex in straight, bisexual and lesbian relationships (there are differences and each brings it’s own challenges)

‘The scene’/ not liking ‘the scene’
Some people like the gay clubbing/pubbing scene, some don’t. When I was young this was the only way to meet gay people, but this is now changing a lot. You only have to look at ‘meet up’ to see that you can now go to all kinds of events – knitting, reading groups, walking groups – to meet LGBT people. Young people want to fit in, but it is fine and good for them to find their own identity/ likes/ dislikes – they may feel pressure to like the ‘scene’ but there are many other ways! Key message for your daughter is: whoever is she is fine, and she will find groups and people who will love her for who she is

Also, all teenagers will be offered drugs whether straight or gay, but you might want to talk to your daughter about poppers, which are available for free (like candy) in gay venues and presented as ‘no big deal’ but are still a drug. Also, same applies about so-called ‘legal highs’, which are so easily available everywhere.

Gay culture
One of my friend’s mum was brilliant and used to watch LGBT programmes with her daughter, and they used to discuss the issues. Some examples are: Sugar Rush, Tipping the Velvet, Fingersmith, The L Word (more mature content), Lip Service (more mature content), Orange is the New Black (more mature content). There is bi-bashing in The L Word in particular from lesbian characters, but this might serve as a good discussion point between you and your daughter.

There is also gay press – Pink Paper, Diva magazine, G3 – which discuss the issues. Depending on the maturity of your daughter – see Autostraddle

As she gets older – Sh! is a great female friendly and lesbian sex shop. In London they don’t even let men in without special permission. Your daughter might be annoyed about how the majority of dildos are shaped like penises (implying superiority of male penis, rather than sensation that is desired).

Also, you are probably aware that London, Leeds and Manchester are big gay centres, but you should also note that Brighton is the girl heaven for lesbian/ bisexual women. I got away with that when I was a teenager – my parents thinking I was going to a quiet trip to the seaside! New centres come and go so you will want to check this out when your daughter starts going on holiday with her friends ;)

My ex-girlfriend’s mum used to go to Gay Pride parade with her, decked in rainbow clothes and screaming at the top of her voice. While my ex claimed it was ‘so embarrassing’ when she was a teenager, as she got older she appreciated that level of support. I always wished my mum was that cool!

Politics
Whether or not your daughter ends up being political, she will still encounter many difficult issues that I know many straight people who have never even really thought about (!):

  • HIV phobia, how the gay community is blamed for this
  • STIs, how the gay community (particularly bisexuals) are blamed for this
  • Trans issues/ gender identity/ sexual identity
  • Masculinity/ femininity
  • Cross dressing/ ‘drag kings’ and ‘drag queens’
  • The importance of self-definition
  • Education – problems still caused from legacy of Section 28
  • Women’s issues, women-only space, feminism

The more you can find about these issues as a parent, the better a position you and your daughter will be in. It is really hard trying to explain lesbian/ bi issues to a parent and having to act as the educator, when all you want is to be mothered/ fathered.

I hope this helps!

RedRoom · 12/08/2014 22:44

There's lots of helpful advice in the post above, but I don't agree that a mum should be raising fisting, fingering and scissoring with a 15 year old! Would the mother of a straight 15 year old talk to her about anal and fisting?

Dragonlet · 12/08/2014 22:48

Thank you so much for all that saxtonier. That's a lot to take in, but I do agree that the more information i have the better. Some of that looks really scary, hopefully we'll have a couple of years before she encounters a lot of that stuff but educating myself now seems to be a good idea. I'll look into some of those issues, at the moment the only one I'm even remotely knowledgeable about is feminism.

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Dragonlet · 12/08/2014 22:53

I wasn't going to discuss those with her at 15 Red. I hope that would be a discussion we could avoid having in graphic detail at any age, but I may have a vague conversation about only doing what she is comfortable with and not being pressured into doing anything she doesn't want to. I certainly wouldn't be having more than that vague conversation if she was only going to be dating boys.

She isn't in any relationship atm, and hasn't ever been. She's still in a phase of having unrequited crushes. I hope that phase lasts quite a while, but I know it will end eventually.

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CartwheelCate · 12/08/2014 23:02

Saxtonier that is a comprehensive and fantastic post you've written there. I've saved it in case I can pass it on to anyone else as it's really useful.
I agree with everything there, although frankly I wouldn't be discussing the intricacies of sex with my dd, there are some things I preferred to learn without my parents. Oh and scissoring, while not popular, certainly does happen and can be a-maz-ing. :D

Caramelkate · 12/08/2014 23:19

I agree, very interesting, but I will be directing my dd to websites/ groups. I wouldn't discuss all this Depth with my son or daughter! I think I'm also mindful that people are individuals and not defined by a sexuality label. My friend R is nothing like my friend L, both happen to be gay but they are otherwise worlds apart, so I'm not sure a 'this is what lesbians do ' conversation would be appropriate. While I will always bd there to support, I don't see a parent's role as encouraging debauched weekends in Brighton, just as I wouldn't encourage my son to go to Magaluf!

saxtonier · 13/08/2014 00:17

Hey everyone,

Thanks for your comments. To be clear, I absolutely wasn't advocating that all of that material is suitable for a 15 year old!

It was more an amalgamation of experiences, because let's face it, Dragonlet will be a mother to her daughter now at 15, but also 19, through to 30 (and beyond). We never stop being mothers and I suppose my perspective is the more Dragonlet knows the better she is able to support her daughter.

Also, I know everyone will have differing perspectives on whether or not/ and how to talk to their child about sex. Of course any discussion is tailored to each individual child's knowledge and maturity, coupled with the family's values and cultural/ religious background.

I received no sex education, but I think children are now growing up in a very different world to how we did, what with mobile access/ internet porn/ social media. I work with young people and I am absolutely stunned about what very young children (from 8 onwards) know about sex. It is staggering, and as a response to dealing with these very difficult challenges some parents have made the choice to try and have more open conversations with their children about sex. I offered some comments, in case Dragonlet wanted to have these conversations with her daughter. I would be very surprised if her daughter didn't already have some knowledge of the things I raised. I know my friends and I have already seriously underestimated what our children know about sex.

But of course, every child and every parent is different, and these discussions are done on a case by case basis!

And Caramelkate I wasn't advocating debauched weekends in Brighton (the complete opposite)! I was making the comment because I know what I was able to get away with as a teenager and I would have a fit if I thought my daughter was able to do the same. I was more equipping Dragonlet so she was aware. Society assumes that situations with women are safer, women are gentler, women are less motivated by sex, and therefore situations with girlfriends are safe. There are sexually aggressive men and women, sex with women carries its' own risks.

Finally, I raised the conversation about definitions of sex between women because when I was 17, I had sex with a girl (my definition - naked, fingering), but she told everyone we didn't have sex as we both didn't orgasm. This was hugely upsetting and embarassing, and I'm sure we can all appreciate how this feels like the end of the world at 17 when you're in love for the first time and hormones are raging.

Caramelkate · 13/08/2014 07:29

Saxtonier, I was using 'debauched' in a tongue in cheek way ;).

Would you have wanted your mum to talk to you about the details of sex? ( lesbian or straight or whatever?). I have a great relationship with my dd but I'm just not sure either of is would want that- though we gave discussed lots of other intimate/ medical stuff. I remember my dad once asked me about whether he would find a wife as he was impotent, and I really didn't wang the discussion at all! I am not a prude - I talk with my friends and in work relationships about sex a lot, but between generations? Not really. But we are lucky in that there is a good network that my dd has hooked into.

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