DH and DM - what do I do now?

[TooExtraImmatureCheddar]

I have had the first major fight with my mum ever in my life and I don't know what to do about it. I'm 30, she's 48 and until now we've been very close and she's been incredibly supportive through a lot of bad times. However.

She and my stepdad came to stay with us to help out after my youngest child was born 4 weeks ago. After a couple of days a weird atmosphere developed - I could tell she was disapproving of DH, but didn't know why. Matters came to a head when DS was 5 days old - my stepdad interfered when DH was telling 2yo DD off, saying that DH shouted at her and scared her. This is not true - I was there and DH didn't shout OR scare DD. Mum had decided that DH had been out of order, and my stepdad jumped in with both feet, as is his wont. DH slammed his cutlery down (we were all sitting round the dinner table), breaking his plate, and said how dare my stepdad speak to him like that, and then he picked up DD and left the room. I asked Mum and stepdad wtf they thought they were playing at, and Mum said that DH had anger management issues and he was too harsh with DD. We continued arguing for a bit, but she wouldn't listen to me and eventually I asked them to leave, which they did.

DH was incredibly hurt by the idea that he scares DD. I find it frankly laughable - DH and DD have a great relationship, he's a very hands-on father, and she adores him. She's a happy, boisterous 2yo who laughs all the time and I've never had the faintest concern about DH's parenting. DH and I both look after DD one day a week alone while the other works (she's at nursery the other 3 days) and on her days with DH they do all sorts of fun stuff like swimming and painting and things. I feel he does a better job on his days with her than I do on mine, because I like to have a quiet Friday and then do things as a family on Saturday when we're all there.

We are both angry with Mum and my stepdad for interfering. I phoned Mum a couple of days later to try to make her see that she was totally out of line. She was furious with me and DH, and she said an awful lot of horrible things about him. She said that he is a narcissist and I have such low self esteem I don't see it. Also that I'm cowed by him. She cast up a number of incidents over the 9 years I've been with DH, in which sometimes DH was in the wrong, and said that he would never change without counselling, that I needed counselling too to learn how to stand up to him, and that children's most formative years are before the age of 2, so it was already too late for DD (at 2.4) but if we got counselling now it might be in time for DS. If that all sounds completely out of left field, that's how it felt to me listening to it! It was an hour and a half of vitriol, which is really out of character for Mum.

By way of background, DH and I are crap with money and Mum's helped us out on a number of occasions. She's right when she says we need to sort this out before DD gets much older. She's also right that DH isn't generally a very happy person - he's suffered from depression and has had periods of counselling and taken ADs before, but the last year or so has been much better. He's not perfect - he can be a grumpy arsehole on occasion, but he's not a narcissist. We've gone through a lot, including an abortion, a bankruptcy and a stillbirth, and I love him to pieces. Mum has been there for me through thick and thin, until this. When DD was a few months old, DH and I had a minor spat which Mum blew out of all proportion. She said DH was an emotional abuser. I said he wasn't, DH and I discussed it, cried over it and moved on. Mum and DH mended their fences and put it behind them, we carried on with our lives and the relationship stayed close. Now I discover that she's never changed her mind and she thinks DH is a danger to me and DD and now DS. This bulks so largely in her mind that she came out with it when DS was 5 days old and we spent what should have been a magical time crying and soul-searching instead.

I haven't spoken to Mum since - my sister has relayed a few messages which pretty much boil down to she's right, I'm wrong, Mum is only acting in my best interests and it's not fair to be angry with her when she only wants to help.

I want to fix this but I don't know how. At this point, DH would happily go NC and never speak to Mum again, but he recognises that I won't be happy with that long-term. We both think an apology is called for, but from what my sister says, Mum won't do that. I want her to recognise that it's my life, my children, and that if I don't see a problem then she has to respect that. I'm not sure she's going to do that either, tbh. She is convinced there is one and I'm just in denial.

Sorry this is so long - there are a hundred more details I could add as it is! What do I do now? I want to have a relationship with Mum and I want my children to have one with her too, but I feel like she's done so much damage that I don't know where to start. I'm already analysing every interaction to see whether I do 'stand up' to DH or not - am I speaking my mind enough? If I feel annoyed by something but don't say so, am I doing it because I'm cowed? If we argue, is he reacting in a normal way or an emotionally abusive one?

InTheNorth123 nerve? touched? dont project - I didnt say anything you attributed to me. Learn to read properly and not make emotive assumptions.

Ok, the emotional abuse incident: DD was about 4/5 months old, I was on mat leave, DH was at work, Mum (at the time not working, although she now works full-time) was here visiting. DH and I only had the one car, so if I wanted it I would drive him to work. On this occasion, as Mum was coming with her car, I didn't bother. Mum and I went into town to meet my sister, with the plan that we would go shopping in the city centre, then Mum would drop me and DD at DH's work on her way home at about 5/5.30. DH's work is on her way home so this wasn't a problem. By about 4 o'clock it became obvious that we were not going to make it to the specific shop Mum wanted to go to before 5. I rang DH and suggested he should drive into town to get me instead. He was cross and said I should get a bus to meet him either at his work or on his way home. I got angry too and said he was being ridiculous, we had a fight over the phone and in the end I borrowed DSis's car and drove home in that, having told DH to f*ck off and I would make my own way. DH and I made up. I might add that at this point DH was on AD's and on a waiting list for CBT through the NHS.

Next day Mum rang me and said she thought DH was emotionally abusing me because he ought to have put my needs and DD's first and come to get us. Also that by refusing to pick me up, he was trying to manipulate her into driving me home. I said that she hadn't driven me home and I hadn't expected her to - had I not borrowed DSis's car, either I would have got the bus or DH would have given in and fetched me. She said I couldn't take DD on a bus. (Not sure why not! It's a perfectly normal bus, not dodgy in any way) I went away to think it over, and phoned her the next day to say I had thought about it and one fight didn't make an emotional abuser and I was convinced DH had been in the wrong for not fetching me, but that in general he's a nice guy. She accepted this but insisted DH apologise to her because she had felt manipulated. DH didn't see why he had to apologise when she hadn't driven me home, but I insisted and he emailed her to apologise, but stuck to the 'I'm sorry you felt manipulated' form, which I was annoyed about, as was Mum. I didn't see the email before he sent it or I would have made him rewrite it. He did say a lot in the email about how grateful he was for Mum's support. So, basically, he didn't cover himself in glory, but then Mum was being unreasonable in the first place demanding an apology for a fight that had nothing to do with her.

"Next day Mum rang me and said she thought DH was emotionally abusing me because he ought to have put my needs and DD's first and come to get us"

But equally you could argue that your mum had put her own needs first too. After all, it was her need to go to a particular shop that was the cause of you not being able to stick to the original plan.

And why on earth did she say you couldn't get on a bus with your dd?

Someone's being manipulative here but I don't think it's your dh. It sounds like there's a pattern forming where your mum/stepdad engineer events that lead to a row, and then your mum neatly turns it into being your dh's fault.

tbf he was at work and tired and wanted to get home,, was your shopping trip that important. why couldn't your mum take you home?

I know my dh would be annoyed if I did that.

it does seem like your mum expects everyone to jump to her tune

also if she had arranged to take you to dh's work why didn't she honour that arrangement. you need to work things out with dh.

does your mum want you to be dependent on her?

the plate bit sounds bad but the other one just sounds like arguments couples have from time to time. And you hardly sound cowed by him if you were saying fuck off.

From the little bits we have here it sounds like your mum is at least being a little OTT. The bit about the first two years being so important and it being too late for your oldest doesn't put your mum in a good light.

Who knows, maybe it's you playing them both off against each other!

I'm not sure what I would advise.

That's not emotionally abusive. He's not at your beck and call fgs. And he doesn't have to pander to your every whim. Maybe your mum thinks he should.

I think your mother is being incredibly unreasonable and I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this on top of having a tiny baby

I think for now you should just ignore her, try to put it to the back of your mind and concentrate on your new family of four

Your poor DH must also be so upset at being accused of being abusive and her spoiling what should be such a happy time, I wouldn't blame him if he found it too hard to forgive her

Don't rush into any long term decisions right now, maybe with some distance your mother will realise she is at risk of losing all of you of she keeps interfering

Nettle, Dad wasn't abusive. They split up when I was 11 mainly because they had been so young when they got married (17 and 19, Mum was 6 months pregnant with twins). Dad fought for 50/50 custody and we spent one week with him and one with Mum until we finished school. Mum and Dad now meet quite amicably eg at christenings etc.

However, Mum has done a lot of therapy and has suffered from very severe depression herself. Her issues have mainly centred around her relationship with her own mother, who Mum thinks is a narcissist, and whom she has had a rocky relationship with. Mum had a breakdown about 6 years ago. She had temporarily separated from my stepdad (as I understand it, he wanted her to quit work, where she was basically being sexually discriminated against, and she wouldn't, and eventually he said he couldn't help her if she wasn't prepared to help herself and they separated for about a year before getting back together). She has since told me that my stepdad also suffered from narcissistic personality disorder and had therapy for it in the years before the separation, because she threatened to leave him if he didn't get help. I'm pretty bemused by this one too - we lived with him 50% of the time between the ages of 14 and 18 and I never saw a single sign of it, and nor did DSis. I digress, though. 6 years ago, Mum was signed off work with stress relating to the sexual discrimination case, and she went to stay with a friend who used her as unpaid childcare. This friend got annoyed one night and told her she had a drinking problem and needed help. Mum and her therapist had been discussing the fact that she self-medicated her depression with alcohol, and this upset Mum so much she checked herself into the Priory as an alcoholic - the only alcoholic ever to turn up completely sober. She phoned us the next day to say what she'd done and we were horrified. It was the depression that was the problem, not alcoholism. She was just so low that she latched onto any further 'evidence' that she was worthless. She had a lot of therapy and when she was able to check out, she came and stayed with DH and me for a month, and then stayed with DSis for a month after that. We did our best to be supportive and DH was lovely the whole time - went and visited her on his own (she was in a different city an hour away and DSis and I worked 9-5, whereas he was working shifts and could visit her during the day), never complained once about her sleeping on the sofa when she checked out, drove DSis and I up to visit her repeatedly when she felt able to go home (she lived 2.5 hrs drive away).

Mum got back together with DSD after a year or so, and eventually was able to start work again last year. I know she's been v stressed recently at work, and she had a huge fight with Grandma the day DS was born. Me being pregnant is always an anxious time as well, because of DD1 being stillborn, so we were all under stress because of that.

I sometimes find in these kinds of situations, where rights/wrongs are kinda irrelevant in that you can't argue someone into changing how they feel, that it's better if you try to put yourself in your Mum's shoes and come up with lots of explanations for why she behaved the way she did. If you were an actress playing her in a soap, what do you think the back story would be? What's motivating her? Play detective. Treat her, not like your Mum, but like an interesting case study.

Once you've got a few potential options, then you can think which ones are nice ones (ie motivated by love of you, however wrongly manifested from your perspective), which ones may be her projecting some of her own experience and being paranoid (your Dad? stepdad? other relationships?), maybe something she's read/seen/friend's experience and got in a tizz over, does she know something you don't know etc etc.

Then you can gently sit down with her and run through all of them. It takes it away from being critical or a black/white you're wrong/I'm right row. More of a 'help me understand, so I can help you not to worry about me and the grandkids'.

That said, I do think the plate smashing was OTT. Has he apologised to you and your daughter for that? I understand how cornered and furious he must have felt, but he needs to know that's not on.

This is so confusing. Why on earths she acting like this?

What does your sister think? Friends? Is there anyone who agrees with your mum?

Weird.

yes your dm has qlot of issues and tbh your dh has been very tolerant.

can you talk to your grandmother about it? don't let your dm come between you and your family. she is trying to be a matriarch.

That took me ages to type - missed the most recent posts! Thank you, everyone.

I know the plate-breaking sounds bad! However, there had been an incredibly strained atmosphere for the previous 24 hours, which we couldn't account for. I'd gone for a lie-down while Mum was making dinner and DH came through to check on me and I cried on him because I knew Mum was angry with him and I didn't know why. Added to that the fact that DS was 5 days old, we were both v relieved that the ELCS had gone well and DS had arrived safely, and DD was playing up at bedtime, howling and refusing to go to sleep, and DH and I were both getting up in the night to feed/change DS (DH was getting DS out of the Moses basket for me so I didn't have to constantly climb in and out of bed with a CS scar, and he was doing the night-time nappies). DH also turned out to have a sinus infection but we all thought it was hay fever/man flu and were blisteringly unsympathetic with his headaches/sneezing etc until he went to the doc a few days later and got antibiotics.

Jesus.

You have had surgery. Have a brand new baby. Dealing with the dynamics of being parents of two. DH has had to support you through surgery (scary to watch someone you love), and you are probably both shattered.

And your mother and stepdad thought in their infinite wisdom, hey, let's criticise his parenting and tell cheddar she is being abused!

Sorry, they sound like nutjobs. Your mum sounds like she considers herself to be some sort of therapist after all the treatment she has had, and they both sound very self important.

You don't sound abused, you sound like a normal couple who argue and swear and get cross and make up. If you were ok before this, don't let her give you cause to doubt your DH, it might drive a wedge between you.

They definitely owe you both an apology.

I would just focus on your own wee family and wait it out with your mum. And congratulations on DS

Plate breaking sounds mild, it was hardly intentional.

It sounds as though your mum isn't happy unless there's some kind of drama in her life. When nothing's actually happening she finds a way to dramatise the most mundane things and turn them into issues.

You and your dh have had a lot on your plate (no pun intended!). He's had far more patience with your mum so far than I would have done.

Sorry to hear about your dd1.

Stinkingbishop, yes, DH apologised to DD for breaking the plate when he took her away from the table. He also apologised to me afterwards, and he said he would apologise to Mum/stepdad for losing his temper, but not for standing up for himself.

DSis says that when I'm talking, I sound reasonable, and when DM is talking, she does! She wants me to make up with DM, although she agrees that DD is not at all afraid of DH. She also said I had to stop talking to her about it all and talk to Mum.

My friends think that Mum and stepdad overstepped the mark by criticising our parenting, and also that DH isn't an NPD.

DH and I discussed the whole thing with my community midwife, who has seen me through 3 pregnancies and who was incredibly supportive to us both after DD1 died. She said that she had known us for nearly 4 years, and in this pregnancy she's been coming to the house every 2-3 weeks since I was 16 weeks pg to do visits, and almost every time all three of us were at home (we were scheduling appts for when we could both be there, and DD was almost always there as well). She said it's part of her job to report any inkling of abuse, physical or emotional, and that you don't watch the adults, you watch the child, and DD was a happy, bright, friendly little madam who clearly loved both of us and wasn't scared of anything, much less DH.

Your mum sounds like the narcissist tbh with your step father the enabler ... sounds like she lives for drama

Sorry you're going through all of this and hope you're both able to enjoy your baby's early days despite all this

As a grandmother I cannot tell you how much I love my GC as it is beyond words. When their parents chastise them in front of me, I feel it very very deeply. However, despite my feelings the children MUST be disciplined. Much as I hate it, I say nothing, as I am not their Parent.
Your Dm and SDH were wrong to criticise your husband and he was wrong to react as he did. However, when you explain the background, wrong as both parties were, you can see how the whole volatile situation came about. It is time for some conciliatory talk.
What does it matter who was right and who was wrong? When you are in the middle of a God almighty row! no one can see clearly anyway. Your Dm sounds as though she has been uba helpful, and you and she love each other dearly. Your DH sounds lovely as well. Just apologise all round and get back to the loving helpful family you were before. Then when the dust has settled you can talk to your Mum. It is hopeless when you are all so angry.
I can tell you now, all of my Girlfriends and I talk about the men our daughters have married endlessly, and none of us think they are good enough. Of course they are! But we will never love them like we love our own flesh and blood. You and your children are your Dm's Flesh and blood and will always be loved by her more than your DH.
Xx for you, as you are so stressed.

Your DH's reactions sound normal. Your mum seems to see PDs and abuse wherever she looks!

It is interesting that your dad fought for 50/50 and got it. Quite unusual 20 years ago and that also makes me think this is all more about your mum than anyone else.

It was unusual - especially because Mum is a solicitor herself. Mum thought at the time that Dad only wanted custody of us to spite her, but he proved her wrong. He was able to say he had done a lot of childcare, including being the main carer for 2 years while Mum went to uni and qualified as a solicitor (not knocking her - it was the best thing she could do for us a family. At the time we were living with Granny (Dad's mum) and Dad was working as a farm labourer earning buttons), and then being the parent who was at home before and after school to look after us. But his motive was simply that it was for the best for us to get equal time with each parent, and actually, once that had been agreed, both Mum and Dad did their best to make it work. I didn't know Mum's opinion of it until much later - think we were maybe 15/16 when she admitted that.

Okay, thank you everyone. I feel much better - have showed DH this thread as well. We had a discussion about where we go from here, and I think I want to phone Mum soon (maybe at the weekend when I can be sure she's not at work) and respond to some of the things she said, about DH and about me and our parenting, because at the time I was so taken aback that I didn't really argue with her. I'm not good at arguing back/marshalling my thoughts in the heat of the moment with anyone, and I think with Mum I automatically revert to child and let her do the talking. I need space to back off and think about it and make my own mind up. So having done that, I want to make sure she knows where I stand. Then, it all depends on how she reacts.

Right, am going to bed now - thank you all again!

The extra details you have given definitely make your DH sound more reasonable than your DM!

What struck me is that you mention your DH apologising to your mum at various points in the whole saga, but you haven't referred to her ever apologising to him. She comes across rather as if she is one of those people who will jump off a cliff rather than say sorry even when she is actually in the wrong but strangely (or perhaps appropriately) is very hot on wanting people to apologise to her for all and any transgressions.

I would say she was at least as much in the wrong as your DH for the bus incident a while back: it seems like both of them wanted to get you to do the thing that was the least trouble for them and fitted in best with their own movements, and neither of them were really thinking of how that impacted on you, the woman having to schlep round town with a baby. The difference is that your DH apologised and your mum - if I've read this correctly - didn't. I also think it was way OTT that he had to write her (by email) an apology and that if you'd known how it was phrased you'd have made him do it again! That sounds very much like a parent-child interaction; I think you and your mum are forgetting that your DH isn't her child, and he isn't answerable to her in the way you might be considered to be, even as an adult, because you're her daughter. Yet she seems to think she can treat him like a misbehaving child - it's really not appropriate, he's just another adult. In this most recent incident, I think she's again assuming that she has some kind of authority over him. I can see how this would be immensely frustrating for him, even if he's been at fault in some things in the past.

It seems clear you are not intending on going NC with your mum or falling out. Not saying that you should. I think all you can say really is that you love her and you know she cares about your welfare but you are happy, you have a good relationship with your DH and him with your children and that you want her to respect that.