Problems with my mum - long, sorry!

[moominmama86]

I would really appreciate some mumsnet wisdom on this one as I'm at my wit's end. This is going to be a long message but thanks in advance to anyone who sticks with it

My mum and I have always enjoyed a pretty good relationship - we're not the 'best mates' type of mother and daughter and we've been known to argue! - but I love her to bits and we've always been close. However, over the last few months our relationship has really deteriorated, mainly because she is ill and I am finding it really hard to deal with. I feel awful about it but I just can't seem to treat her with the love and compassion she needs and it's really driving us apart.

Two years ago she was diagnosed with an obsessive-compulsive type disorder, where (amongst other things) she had the numbers '1,2,3,4' going round and round in her head non-stop. This coupled with a deep depression and severe anxiety problems means she has been in a very bad way for a long time now. She has seen numerous psychiatrists, psychoogists, doctors, therapists - you name it, we've tried it. She's had cognitive therapy, has been on a bewildering variety of drugs and has also been admitted as a psychiatric inpatient - all to absolutely no avail. Unsurprisingly, she feels she's never going to get better - in fact things are getting worse. She feels desperate and suicidal and doesn't want to wake up in the morning. All of this I can understand, rationally, and there's nothing, absolutely nothing that I wouldn't do to help her if I could.

The trouble is that she's now got to the stage of desperation where she doesn't believe that she can be helped, and consequently is basically refusing point-blank to engage with any therapy. She says it's all pointless. A second opinion from a very trusted therapist (who helped her 10 years ago when she had a similar problem) says that she doesn't in fact have OCD and that she is a bit of an unusual case. She has interpreted this to mean that she is beyond help and should be locked up. She constantly says that suicide is her only remaining option rather than go on like this. She spends every day sitting in the house chainsmoking and crying, asking me or my dad to help her but then refusing any help when we try, telling us we don't know what we're talking about, we have no idea what she's going through, etc etc etc. She will go and see her therapist and nod and smile in all the right places and give the impression of being, basically, fully 'in charge' and quite capable and rational - then she will come home and all hell will break loose - I have seen her run around the house screaming and begging to be locked up, and then halfway down the road in the car to the hospital change her mind and say she's fine and wants to get back home and cook dinner.

And the worst thing is that I am just getting angrier and angrier about all this. It makes me furious that she is refusing professional help, and yet is quite willing to let me deal with her daily talk about killing herself. I am losing my temper with her more and more because, whilst I know she is ill and depressed and scared, she will not lift a finger to help herself, even though she can plainly see what it is doing to the rest of her family.

I know how awful this sounds and I know that I should probably just put my arms around her and give her a hug when she starts (and of course sometimes I do!) but I can't take much more of this misery. It is tearing my family apart and her absolute refusal to take seriously any help she is offered is beginning to look more like plain selfishness than anything else. Please don't judge me - I would sacrifice pretty much anything to get my mum better but my life is being destroyed by this illness too. I have a failing marriage and 9-month-old ds to deal with, no home of my own (we live with mum and dad at the moment), no job and no money - I don't know if I have the strength to support everything... I want to be there for my mum so much but how can I help someone who doesn't seem to want help?? Should I step right back and basically wash my hands of it all? I don't want to and don't even know if I could (especially as we live in the same house) but I don't know that I can stand another day of tears and screaming and being told I have to help her and then being told I don't know what I'm talking about and that no-one can help her....???

God, sorry this is such a waffle. I needed to get it off my chest more than anything else. Any words appreciated...

Well darling, first of all a huge big squishy hug your way. You are dealing with so much at the moment. I wouldn't be too hard on yourelf, some of us are great at dealing with illness and others (like me sometimes) haven't the patience to deal with the ill at all. The added problem of mental illness is that it's doubly hard to deal with. There is no quick fix, nothing of the shelf, no pills or potions that will make her better. I recently visited my adored Nanna for the first time since she has been taken into residential care, and to see her in that state broke my heart. She was crying and sobbing, saying she didn't want to be there ... it was awful. But, I know underneath the veil of her illness she is still my beautiful Nanna who probably feels as confused about the state she is in as we do.

There is little you can do to help your Mum, other than be yourself and give her all the support that she will accpet. There will be days when she hates the world and herself, and of course she will think that no-one can understand or help. In a way this is true, no-one really knows how she feels trapped inside herself.

Just remember that we are here for you to vent and rant and yell, and that you are doing a fabulous job under the very dificult circumstances. I wish you much love and happiness; look beyond the rain to the rainbow that always follows. xxxxxxx

you poor poor thing. Just read your post and my heart goes out to you. Dont be too hard on yourself for loosing patience. It is not surprising - you have so much pressure on you at the moment, just in your own life, this is a time when you need to be getting support not having to dish it out!

Living with anybody is hard - let alone somebody with the sort of problems your mum has. It is probably hard for you to stay objective with you are confronted with this day in day out.
Is there any way of moving out of your mum and dads (I know it could be hard) I think this would help - at the moment you never get breathing space, no wonder it is getting to you.
You are as much a victim of this illness as your mum. It is similar to families with an alcoholic parent. Have you tried looking for a support group/counselling for yourself? This is hard for you too - and if you could talk to somebody about all this then you will be better equiped to help your mum.
My step father had a depressive illness - so I know how hard, and what an impact it has.
Have you spoken to her doctor about her threats of suicide?
Please e-mail me from the contacts so we can have a chat as it sounds like you have a lot on your plate at the moment and need a chat. ((hugs))

Carlyb is right about it being similar to living with an alcoholic parent, and my heart goes out to you. It must be so difficult to be living in the same house, even under "normal" circumstances, never mind with all this going on too.

My Mum did the exact same thing as your Mum...she used to nod and smile at the doctor cos in her mind he was an omnipotent being who had all the answers and could never be wrong. Of course, WE were wrong. With her many illnesses which it was suggested were psychosomatic (she went bonkers when I said that), she was always at the doctors and trying various creams, potions and pills. It all worked to start with and then stopped-i could easily have cried when I saw what she was going through.

My Dad and I tried to get to see her doctor, but he wouldn't see us because Mum was not with us and so it became a viscious circle. When my sister's and my ds were born within 2 weeks of each other and in the event of her own Mum dying after suffering for many years with Alzheimer's, she was free of the ailments completely for a few weeks: because she had something to focus on which kept her mind from working overtime on her symptoms. She said to shoot her if ever she got like her Mum...not realising that sometimes they were so similar.

Sadly she died 2.5 years ago and I miss her madly every day...she was the one I ran to when I was ill or had a problem (not that I would tell her about it, we had a strange relationship). But she supported me with my ds before he was diagnosed with adhd and asperger's, and would take him so I could have an hour to myself just relaxing.

We tried to get her to see a healer and we got her laylines (?) straightened (or something).I think in hindsight - a wonderful thing that, hindsight, that a diversionary tactic may have worked to take her mind off it completely. Is there anything you could offer her to have done such as accupuncture, massage, or similar? If it takes her mind off what is going on in her head for only a few minutes, it would give her a mental rest and you. I don't know, mental illness is so ugly when you are dealing with it day to day.

You really need to get out with your dh and ds for some quality time - even a walk in the park or something to give you breathing space would help and make sure you talk about YOU on these walks - not what is going on at home. Make it a rule.

I know it must be so hard for you in this horrible situation and I really do feel for you. My thoughts are with you and please keep us informed.

Good luck and I wish you strength. x

so interesting that whilst reading your own sad posting i was taken back to my own mother who died 2.5 years ago having suffered from alcoholsim for many years. Everything that you discribe was so so similar from your own emotional feelings to your mothers behaviour. You do really really need to except (i know its so hard!!) that she is ill, very sick mentally. She sounds, like my mum, very manipulative for attention and then hurting you when you give it must be totally exhausting for you. I send you my biggest hugs.

It does sound like you need to get your own space, however you may be able to achieve that, you have to look after yourself and your child first and foremost, there is nothing in the rule book that says that you owe your mother(or anyone) the guts and soul of you. You are a mum now and your immediate focus must be on your own child and yourself.

Sorry if i am reading too much into this, i hope you find some ways out to make it more bearable for yourself. Have any of the doctors suggested EST, radical i know but may mil has had years of severe depression and suicide attempts but has been really good for about 10-15 years after EST.

My mother refused even though her doctors wanted to give it to her.

If you want to email me through cat feel free but in the meantime, try and get away for as much time a possible, visit friends, parks, etc space and time to yourself may hopefully give you renewed energy to help/deal with your mum.

Much love to you(((()))

moonminmama - i'm another one with a mentally ill alcoholic mother so i can understand some of what you are going through. i also ended up living with my mum for 18 months when we couldn't find a house to buy, my ds1 was just over a year old and i nearly split up with my dh. in hindsight all i can offer is the following:

1. you HAVE to move out.
2. you are not her mother
3. this is not your fault
4. this is not your responsibility
5. you cannot mend your mum
6. you CAN mend your own life the fact that you are so angry is hopefully a very good sign. we all have our breaking points. daughters of ill mothers tend to have a larger capacity for that breaking point.we are all trying to find a way to mend them. and the fact that you are holding all these people and their emotions in the air is a testament of your love for your mum and dad .from what you write it sounds as if you are asking permission to stand down from the role that has been forced upon you. it is a testament to the love of yourself, your son and maybe your husband that you are looking for a way to step down and let go and move forwards to the life you and your new family need and deserve. when my mum dragged me to rock bottom i felt so torn and sick inside but i put myself and my son on a train to a town i liked i arrived at the tourist info and booked ourselves in for a week. which turned into a month and during that time my husband joined us, we could breathe again, i got my strength back and realised what was at stake and we decided to move permanently. my mum is still ill - she has drank and smoked herself into a wheelchair and is the talk of the village with her latest strange behaviours! but i have decided i will not let her ruin my life anymore, i keep contact to a phonecall twice a week and if she is pressing those buttons where i know i will get upset i say the baby needs feeding and i have to go. i also have taken up transcendental meditation which has helped me enormously with not letting mine or my mothers emotions overwhelm me.( there are independent tm teachers that charge £250) if you are interested - yes expensive but the best money i ever spent. you know what you need to do. just find the strength and do it. its your time now. xxxxxxx if you ever need to talk..... thinking of you and sending lots of hugs shrub

some good books to read are in the series of adult children of alcoholics, i do think that although the common in thread is the alcohol in the life stories they equaly apply to most children of dysfunctional parents.

Another book is called perfect daughters i found that reading books has often helped me identify with others instead of feeling so isolated from the rest of society. Most of these books made me feel normal for the first time.

hugs and congratulations to all mums of alcholic addictive and dependent mums that have risen above to live their lives for themselves and thier familys any one think this may be a good new thread??

Thanks everyone for your messages - it's lovely to know that you've taken the time to reply.

Yesterday and last night were so difficult - I ended up taking my ds down to casualty to make a point to mum! He is currently teething (nightmare lol!) and was pulling funny faces at lunchtime as babies are wont to do. Well, mum became convinced that these faces meant he was having a fit or had a 'cerebral irritation' (her words) - talk about projecting your own fears but there we go. She burst into tears and insisted that there was something seriously wrong with him and that he was obviously very ill... I lost it completely, I'm afraid. I screamed at her for about half an hour before bundling poor ds into the car and taking him down to casualty to try and prove to her that there was absolutely nothing wrong with him - what a waste of everyone's time. Luckily the doctors were lovely (and gorgeous!!) and didn't mind. However, since mum refused to accompany me to explain what she had seen, it was all a bit of a farce. I was so angry but felt I had to do something to show her how ridiculous she was being but of course it hasn't made a shred of difference. Last night ds was then up for 2 1/2 hours from 11.30pm to 2am and this only further convinced her that there's something wrong with him. I should point out at that he's probably the healthiest, bonniest, most bouncing baby you will ever see...Anyway, to cut a very long story short, she hasn't got out of bed all day today because she's so stressed about it all and to be perfectly honest that's been a bit of a relief.

A lot of it is manipulation and that's why I'm so angry but I know also how ill she is and how she can't help it in lots of ways. We will be moving as soon as possible but unfortunately dh lost his job and has only recently got a new one, (I am still officially on mat leave although searching for a new job) so money is extremely tight and I am hugely indebted to my parents for letting us live basically rent-free with them. Dh and I are also trying to put our marriage back together after separating earlier this year - there's a lot going on and not much of it is good!!

I know I am not responsible for her (although it has taken a while to come to this realisation). We actually moved away from all our friends to be nearer to her when ds was born because I thought it might help her to be involved with him, and to a certain extent it does but he's also a source of added stress for her because she can't control her anxiety. In some ways I resent this because I left my life behind 'for her' (although obviously it was my choice). We have also had the 'don't you want to live to see him grow up?' conversation! I am trying to take a small step back and not feel the need to get involved in every possible discussion about how she is feeling, and to sometimes just walk away. It's hard.

Thanks again, so much, for all your kind words. It really helps to be able to blow off steam here. Sorry again for long waffly message! You are all stars....

You poor thing - how unbelievably stressful for you and your whole family.
Until you can move out and let a bit of physical distance help lessen the constant stress, you must come up with some coping strategies for all of your sakes. Having had some limited experience of living in close quarters with someone I love and yet can?t cope with due to their state of mind, I would strongly recommend you start to think about practical ways in which you can help you all deal with the situation and make it more manageable. Here are a few suggestion of things that sometimes worked for me - might not all be appropriate for you but could help you think up a few for yourself. Look for the positive in your situation and aim to relieve the stress and I promise you life will become easier for you all. It is very ahrd work looking for the positive - I know this only too well. However, it is possible if you make it your priority.
eg. if she won?t go out and get help/joing social clubs etc. to take her mind off her worrying, then make sure you go out every day for a least a couple of hours to be specifically you and your children?s time. Knowing there is an oasis in the middle of each day where you can forget everything and just "live" a bit can help to get you through the most stressful bits.
Try a time out system - this is where you both learn to recognise a situation is spiralling to an inevitable fallout point and stopping it with whatever means possible (eg. in your case it will prob. have to be you taking control and stopping the conversation by saying anything, even "sorry I just need to go to the bathroom and sitting there for 10 mins breather..anything will do!) It can give you both time to calm down and cope more easily.
Another tactic to cope with a tense relationship where the factors causing the main point of stress cannot be resolved (ie. living together and your mum?s illness) is by deliberately setting up situations once a week to spend time together in as stress free way possible to help you enjoy each others company again - eg. once a week, DH having the children and you both going out for a coffee or a swim together - just to get out of the house, away from the usual areas of worry (children, housework etc.) and do something together.
Contact a family councillor or GP to help you devise specific strategies for dealing with her crisis points (screaming and running round house etc.) If you have a definite plan of action it can make the world of difference rather than not knowing who to ring, when to act, what to say to stop it etc. etc. For example, if the children are there, is there a trusted neighbour you can come to arrangement who would pick them up at the drop of the hat and look after them for you so you can accomp. your mum to the hospital, or should you get her GP out immediately. It could also be comforting for her if she knows there is a way through it all when it gets bad and she knows what to expect. If possible, I would ask her if you could come with ehr next time to see the GP and see if you could help her to be more honest with them about what she is experiencing and encourage her to open up a bit - long stretch I know, but worth aiming for - esp. if you work on boosting her up with a bit more mum and daighter time to rekindle your old relationship etc.
Sorry if that is all dribble, not trying to tell you what to do or be patronising, just wanting to offer up a few ideas. I always cope best with a tricky situation by list making, planning and having strategies, just the way I cope. Whatever you do, good luck and let us know how you are coping.

What a desperately difficult situation for you honeypie.
I wonder if there is suport group somewhere on the phone for those families affected by mental illness such as your mothers.
Is it worth asking a health professional if they know of such a thing, or perhaps some lovely woman on here will help with it...
Bless and big hugs, so much to shoulder
xx

Moominmama86 I do feel for you. And I'm not surprised you feel this illness is destroying you. It is so difficult to cope with someone who is this ill. The illness itself makes her feel everything is hopeless which stops her accepting help; it's a particularly vicious circle. If you need to get away because all this is too much for you then go. It's very sad, but it won't help your mother if you are driven to a breakdown. Your feelings are entirely rational and normal, don't feel you need to apologise for them.
Does your mother not have a community pyschiatric nurse? You need some support in looking after her. You really shouldn't have to press her GP/CPN to provide this support but sadly it's all too common that people do have to argue for the care they need. You need to talk to her GP/CPN and make sure they are aware of the circumstances, particularly your mother's despair and suicidal thoughts and that she may be able to act a part for a ten minute appointment but outside the consultation room her symptoms are much worse. You have to point out that you are only human, have a baby to look after and can't reasonably be expected to cope on your own. Have you been in touch with Mind? They may be able to give you a run down of the services available and your rights and put you in touch with local support groups for families of people with depressive illness. I know you say she's been on a bewildering variety of drugs but it is worth insisting on a medication review ? pyschiatric drugs are literally lifesavers but they can interact and they do have powerful side effects. Ironically these can include suicidal thoughts, particularly with SSRIs like Prozac and Seroxat.
Many of the people who have posted here have felt echoes with their experiences of living with alcoholics. But I do want to point out that depressive illness is not the same as substance abuse. It's a real illness just as much as diabetes or cancer ? it's just that it affects your brain (you can see real changes in brain chemistry/activity on scans). Your mother is not to blame for her condition and you are definitely not to blame for finding it almost unbearable. (I'm not condemning substance abusers but depressive illness isn't the same thing, even if some of the trauma it causes for families may be similar).

The two leading charities in mental health which provide information and support are Sane and Mind. Broadly, Sane has always focused more on families and carers, Mind on mental health service users themselves.
Sane is here: Sane

Mind details here:
MIND

I'm sure they do Zebra (if I suffered from severe depression I'd probably try any mood changing substance I could get my hands on too) but Moominmama86's mother isn't an alcoholic and many of the posts just made me uncomfortable ? you can't blame someone for having a real, physical illness that happens to affect their brain rather than their right knee, for instance.

I agree eddm - mental illnesses are very different from alcoholism but the devastation that both can cause can be just as bad as each other.
Rather than seeing her mum as "the problem", I guess they all need to pull together and come up with coping strategies to support both her mum as well as moominmama and her DH and own children.
I think that some of the posts that focus on Moominmama?s needs rather than her mum is just natural reaction at wanting to support moomin as the immediate priority and not deliberately trying to belittle or blame her mum or her illness.

sorry this thread seems to have veered towards alcoholic mothers. i agree with stripeymouse when both illnesses present similar behaviours and that is why a number of mums with alcoholic mums can relate to what moominmama is going through. back to moominmama - the fact that your mum can be 'fully in charge, capable and rational' echoes my mums behaviour when the ambulance draws up when i have had to have her sectioned. this validates your anger that she is manipulating you and maybe she sometimes has a choice on her behaviour (when i finally left i realised how everyone in our family had a 'role' to play in my mothers 'theatre of madness'! now we have left she can't play some of those behaviours out anymore as she has lost part of her audience). i didn't realise your full situation so my advice about b & b and meditation would have seemed rather trite - sorry. all i can say is to concentrate all your energy now on finding a way you can move out and practice detachment to her behaviour. don't let her behaviour be the most important thing in your life. you, your ds and dh are the most important. when you step back from her behaviour and anticipate when she next starts to manipulate you, try and mentally let go - don't let her behaviour have that power over you. i sometimes remain silent when my mum starts to have 'an episode'. i have found she gets over them quicker as it becomes less 'emotional ping pong' just 'ping' if that makes sense!!
let us know how you are doing and be gentle with yourself

another question -has your mum ever been sectioned under the mental health act (this is when they are a danger to themselves or others)? sometimes my mum has gone in voluntarily and other times i have had to get 2 doctors signatures to admit her. she has been admitted for up to 3 months and it has made a difference. (this has been over the last 25 years).

Hi Shrub - no she's never been sectioned as such although she has spent time in a (private) clinic a couple of years ago. The thing is, despite the deep level of depression and sometimes out-of-control anxiety she displays at home, she is perfectly capable, as I've mentioned, of behaving absolutely 'sanely' (because she isn't 'insane', just overwhelmingly anxious and depressed) in front of her doctors and therapists - anyone, in fact, who isn't her nearest and dearest. For example, she now sees a private therapist who comes to the house - mum will get smartly dressed, put on makeup, do her hair and sit quite happily and calmly for 2-3 hours with this woman, discussing her condition for all the world as if they were talking about Eastenders, and then all hell will break loose the moment the door is closed and it's just us again. And when I mentioned this to her NHS consultant, he gave me very short shrift, told me that 'last time, your mother was looking much better' and basically refused to believe that she could possibly be anything other than the smart, capable, intelligent woman he saw when she chose to be. It's like banging your head against a brick wall.

I'm beginning to sound rather bitter here so I'll stop! Today dh and I are going to take ds out for the afternoon and have a break - we're going up to Tate Modern so I can immerse myself in something other than day-to-day stuff. I know that I have to look after myself and make more effort to get out and about and not just dwell on this 24 hours a day. I can be there for her but I can't get better for her - she has to do that herself and I will be the one to break down if I don't start living by that a little more.

I am completely overwhelmed by all your support and advice and want to thank you all again. It means a huge amount to me.

Hi Moominmama. Soooo frustrating if you get an idiot consultant like that. Had similar problem with my mother who is an articulate, professional woman. And when she's talking to a doctor, that's the side that comes out - like a social call. Except luckily she did tell the docs about things like not being able to remember how to park the car... thank heavens she's much better now. Think I asked below, has your mother got a CPN? They can be really helpful - maybe ask them to call unannounced? Or just don't tell your mother when they are coming?
Glad you are managing to get out. anyway. Best wishes.

don't know if this is any use at all, and anyway Mind or Sane would tell you about it and be able to put it in context more, but your dad is I think entitled to a 'carer's assessment' of his own needs, by the mental health team/social services. Or else you are - or maybe both of you? Sorry to be vague. Problem is that due to usual resource problems very few of these assessments get made, even though they are a legal obligation, and even if they do get made there's no legal obligation to provide what they recommend!! Only you can decide if you think it's worth fighting for this - I would definitely talk to somebody who has been through it before deciding whether it's more trouble than it's worth.

Living with/looking after ill people is so stressful - 1 in 4 of the general population have a mental health problem at some time, but 1 in 3 of mental health staff do - and at least they get paid for the work! Very best wishes.

moominmama - how are you??

Just to add to acne bride carers are entitled to an assessment of their needs. Possible you could approach Gp for yourself particularly if you feeling angry and frustrated this may be hard but help you find the help neede, alternativley and possible harder try tough love and ignore if possible your mums behaviour (obviously intervene if you feel a real threat) Try housing dept. as well to see you can move out and put some space between you and situation and allow you to be with your ds and dh Not much help but MIND , SANE and the Samartitans are all places you could go for help

She's not been good this morning - heard her sobbing in her bedroom earlier but didn't go in. Then she came downstairs where I was reading to ds and started saying how she couldn't go on anymore etc etc etc. Ds started crying at her (great!) so I just took him into another room and left her to it, I'm afraid. It seems so harsh but I really don't know how else to handle it. Nothing I say makes the slightest bit of difference anyway!

We have tried MIND but all they could really offer was a list of support groups etc which she will have no part of. The thing is that she's perfectly capable of looking after herself (despite what she would have us all believe) and so I don't know if we would even be eligible to go down the 'carers' route as such. She's just hard work, basically! I will give them a call again and pursue it though, but I reckon it'll be a question of resources, and she won't be anywhere near the top of the list...

I have thought about housing dept but to be honest it's not what I want. Living here is stressful but - it's hard to explain - moving out at this stage wouldn't make me feel any better and it certainly wouldn't help her. All I would be doing is making myself feel more guilty! Anyway, luckily it's a big house....

Thanks so much for checking up on me! It makes such a difference to know there is somewhere I can come and vent, at least!! Happy Easter to you allxx

Sorry to hear you are having such a miserable time It sounds as though you could not be more supportive to your mum Well done for being so brilliant
Try to find a way to give yourself a break is really important because you have your own life and family to nurture
Once things improve your mum will be glad that you didn't sacrifice too much

Mentally ill people are above all selfish, more selfish and demanding than any one else and i'm sure any one who has experienced it will say. Thats why you have to take your own space and time out because otherwise the more you give the more will be taken
From your mums point of view i expect she is very frightened both of her feelings and thinking she will never get better most people do recover somehow
You say she seems perfectly ok cooking or whatever some of the time and then quite mad It is possible and i think what can happen is that the more you try to get on with things the more it springs out and makes you worse
Its really hard to get into psychiatric hospital but from what you've written she might (and you) really benefit from a time there because you don't have to do anything and you're not a burden and you can talk to other people and nurses all quite informal and therapeutic And you don't have to be responsible for yourself and if the drugs make you worse you can talk to people straight away and not have to camp out at the GP

Sorry if this is no help Its rather garbled as i am at work at the mo