Supporting DH with a narcissistic mother

[TheGirlOnTheLanding]

DH has always had a difficult relationship with his mother (he's not the only one, she has a history of falling out with family members and not speaking to them for years.) He feels she never loved him, preferred his sibling (who died in adulthood) and I've witnessed her undermine and put him down throughout the time I've known him. Nothing he ever does is good enough. She says hurtful things. She claims his skills and successes as her own, and also rewrites history, painting herself in a better light. Everything is about her - from FIL's illness to the death of SIL (no one else was allowed to grieve, no one else could possibly understand the loss, even SIL's husband). DH has had a lifetime of placating her: his one attempt to stand up to her in his late teens resulted in him moving out and her not speaking to him for months until he apologised. That incident has since been rewritten as unreasonable teen behaviour, with key facts being changed when cast up to him.

A while ago, I revised my opinion from thinking she was the most selfish parent I'd ever encountered to thinking she was probably a narcissist. Not that a label changes anything.

We live over 2 hours away and see ILs every two-three months (we always have to travel to visit them, they never come to us even for DC's birthdays.) They have never babysat and only see DC when we bring them to visit. DH phones dutifully every week (they never call us). I can cope with this level of contact, but every so often an especially bad phone call is making DH angry, hurt, upset and sending him into a black hole of depression. He believes his mother wishes he had died instead of his sister, though it don't think she has ever actually said this, I am really worried about what it's doing to him, especially as FIL is not in good health, and we're thinking ahead to when he's no longer around and MIL needs more practical support (she is quite a bit younger than FIL, they live rurally and she doesn't drive). When we have discussed it, DH says he isn't willing to cut off contact, given she will be more and more reliant on us, but I dearly wish I could minimise the damage to his mental health. Has anyone successfully supported a partner in this position? Is it even possible to manage this kind of relationship without psychological damage? We're not in a position to pay for a therapist.

Thanks in advance.

I think all you can do as a partner is be supportive. Bolster your DH's confidence where possible and remind him of the positives in his life so that he has a certain resilience against any upsetting phone-calls with his DM. It might help for you to analyse her behaviour together.... almost make it an academic exercise. You could encourage him to stand up for himself. As you point out - MIL is going to be much more dependent one day and she almost certainly needs him more than he needs her. He probably would benefit from counselling. You say you can't afford it but there is a possibility he could be referred by his GP if he is experiencing depression.

He could stop all the running after her coat tails. Leave her to instigate contact. Stop going to visit her. If she doesnt pick up the slack then that is her problem and your husband will feel free er. The best outcome would be no contact if she continues to emotionally abuse him. He needs to stop expecting her to change and not give her any personal information when talking to her that she can " use" against him. This needs stopping now before your children start to be affected by her behavior.

Thanks Cog. I have suggested standing up for himself, but DH thinks MIL would cut us off until we crawled back to her, as she did when he was younger (and also in a subsequent incident when I inadvertently offended her and she cut us off for six months, even after an apology). He doesn't want that to happen. He says he just has to 'suck it up' as she is still his mother.

I do try to bolster his self esteem but in expressing how great I think he is (as a husband, as a dad, as a son) I tend to get angry on his behalf at the way she treats him, and I don't think that helps at all. I'm trying to stay calm and disengage more emotionally so I can just listen to how he's feeling but often, he withdraws into himself and won't talk about it. It's hard to watch.

We miss his sister. She was a good sounding board, very supportive of him, and very aware of the situation. She chose to live several hundred miles away from MIL so I don't think being the favoured child was any easier than being second best.

No contact would be my preference Tilly, but DH definitely doesn't want that, and I want to support him whatever he decides. He doesn't expect her to change, but I think he needs to change how she affects him, if he continues contact.

It won't help to get angry on his behalf, no. I think you have to respect his decision to 'suck it up' but only to a point. If he gets upset or depressed and it means that it starts to affect his work or his life with you or the rest of the family etc then that IMHO is when the decision crosses a line.

Did he ever have bereavement counselling after the death of his sister? With his father not being in good health and having lost a sibling (are there others?) then he could feel that DM, for good or ill, is all the close family he has left.

I had CBT for recurrent anxiety disorder the source of which was everything being my fault and my responsibility as a child (dad died when I was 12, mum had multiple sclerosis, very angry and depressed, rest of the family ran for the hills and left me to cope and one memorably told me that I'd be fine because children didn't feel things strongly enough to grieve).

The CBT really helped, not saying that is what your DH needs but it's got to be worth seeing the Doctor and seeing what help there is. I did have to push for a talking treatment rather than pills (was on pills twice, they worked while I was on them but the problem kept coming back) so it might be a good idea if you went along and helped him make his case.

Basically the CBT helped me change the way I felt about things rather than brooding over how awful they were. My mum was horrible to deal with, but that was partly the illness, the main thing is I no longer feel guilty for not being able to cope or for never making her happy (nothing ever did).

I have a mother similar to this and dh despairs of me staying in contact with her, but he doesn't understand really I'm not doing it for her - I'm doing it for me. Because I can't live with the guilt of feeling I didn't do the right thing. Rightly or wrongly anyway.

I'd just listen to him, let him have a moan without suggesting going non contact. One of the things my dh does which drives me nuts is he will get very angry about it all and suggest I don't bother with her anymore which makes me feel stuck in the middle and that's a horrible feeling and just makes me feel like telling everyone to fuck off.

Toxic parents are very difficult to deal with. But even harder to cut out.

p.s. Just want to reiterate that I'm, not saying everyone with family problems should get CBT and it probably helped, sad to say, that mum was dead by the time I went, because there was no live person to build an ( hugely unlikely) good relationship with, or to get an (even more unlikely) apology from.

What a horrible situation to be in.

I would be getting so angry on his behalf. And it would be pointless.

Why would he have to crawl back to beg her forgiveness? Why would anyone do that?

I know it's his mother. I am not in his shoes and not do I understand what is it like to have a narc parent, but what would happen if he just didn't bother? Probably nothing which would be delightful for you both.

Does he envisage her coming to love with you in her dotage? Christ. I hope you're not going to allow that. The pressure on your marriage would be huge.

I know you said that your DH will not currently envisage going no contact but I think that is the only solution in the long term. The narc mother is not going to change, she will just make him feel like shit for the rest of his life and try to disrupt your family as much as possible.

He/you are not responsible for his mother in her old age. I am NC with my elderly mother who is also in a rural area and in ill health. She has no other family in the UK and her husband is dying of cancer. I feel sorry for her but I am not responsible for her. She brought the NC on herself.

Has he read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward, some people find it helpful? Can't he get a few free counselling sessions on the NHS? I think that might help him decide what to do. It sounds as if he can't come to terms with his relationship with his mother and keeps trying to fix what is unfixable.

Feel for dh, OP. taken me years to come to some accommodation with similar situation. First, he needs to realise his power - adult son, not the vulnerable teen he once was, father of her grandchild. Then he needs to capitalise on this and nor give his power away. Set his boundaries explicitly if he'll be heard, if not just to you/himself. Eg he will call fortnightly not weekly. He will invite her to visit at mutual convenience, firmly.

To add, think some therapy could help. More than Cbt, more psychotherapy ideally. Sounds like dm may be projecting all the family dysfunction on him as her now only child. Poss also issues from her own childhood/relationship with sibling. If cost an issue, worth looking into Transactional Analysis, great on family dynamics & patterns of dysfunction. May help him distance himself from historic stuff and not take it personally.

Also validation , sounds like he seeks this from dm? To avoid the hurt, he needs to teach himself no longer to seek it. Far less potential for damage that way.

Fairy, I think you have it exactly right, DH does not want to feel guilt for not doing the right thing by his parent, but also it's more complicated - he loves his mum. He hates her sometimes but he loves her too, and feeling like I'm pulling him away from her will just make him feel worse.

I fear for what will happen in her old age, I really do. DH is now an only child. I've said clearly MIL is not coming to live with us, it would destroy our marriage. He has said he doesn't think she'd want to, but has stopped short if agreeing with me that we won't consider it. However, thankfully, that's not an immediate problem.

Do any of you have any tips on getting CBT or other therapy through the NHS? Two years after his sister died DH finally went to the GP about bereavement counselling (it took a lot of persuasion and finally an admission from him that it was impacting not only him but our family and us as a couple) but all he got out of the appointment was a list of private counsellors. He never called any of them of course and has never been back to the GP.

Thanks Swift, I will look into transactional analysis. And I think helping DH decide on boundaries and stick to them will help. He has done this to some degree - recently he decided that get wasn't feeling up to ringing MIL on his 'usual' night and to put it off till he felt stringer, whereas a couple of years ago he would have felt the fall out from not calling when expected would have been worse than just calling 'on time'.

I can really empathise with the OP. My DH has had to cope with a Narc for a mother for his whole life (he is much the eldest of four, his Dad died young and he has always had a bit of quasi-parent role with his younger siblings). At times all of this has had a real impact on our relationship. Completely understand how he does not want go NC though, so it seems to me that you need to find ways of coping.

Just a few thoughts;

• DH’s biggest worry (which occasionally resurfaces) is that he is going to “turn out like her”. Nothing could be further from the truth. He is a wonderful Dad and our sons adore him. I just try and offer him all the reassurance I can.

• Some of her more egregious Narc episodes, (such as the time that she stormed out of a family wedding because of some perceived slight thus ensuring she was the centre of attention even when she was not there!) have become the stuff of family legend. Being able to have a giggle about some of this stuff really helps.. It makes her seem less of a monster and less in control.

• He asks himself in any situation, “What would Mum do? He works on the principle that if he then does the opposite, it will probably be the right thing to do!

• CBT really helped. I can offer emotional support but having someone external and skilled to talk to has helped him to come to terms with the fact that she is never going to change and that it is not his fault.

• Try not to worry about the future. I know that sounds trite but she is not going to change, and there is not a damn thing either of you can do about it. Accepting that may make things a bit easier to cope with.

Best wishes to you both.

Try and get him to read the stately homes tnread or equivilant.

The biggest help for me was reading other peoples experiences. Actually the real kicker was the large number of people whoes mother also told them 'I love you but I don't like you'.

It really helped to see that there was a script. It wasn't me. It was her.

This may help him deal with this.

Hi guys, just registered on here. I have same
Problem with MIL and DH.
It is genuinely embarrassing to sit at dinner with them all. We go for dinner every week to theirs, and every week MIL reminds DH about his failed business and unsuccessful career (til recently!) She constantly asks me why I am still with him, and why I haven't left him. And that he and his brother messed up her life and ruined her.
She told him recently that he'd done nothing to make her proud except produce DC. DH is an oxford graduate!
How do people deal with this when it is MIL? I often laugh at her, in the hope she'll realise how ridiculous it sounds. I know that MIL is product of a violent relationship between her parents and I wonder if this might have anything to do with it? DH gets so upset, and I think only goes to see MIL and FIL out of some bizarre sense of duty!

FIL was just here visiting. He is a narc and getting worse. My strategy has been to be there for DH, listen, support and love. While setting VERY firm boundaries. I have said that DH can live with me, or with him, but not both. Ever.

DH is starting to see the cracks for what they are. His DF will not change and he has to manage his feelings, some of which are very dark. Oddly maybe not I think the worst is embarrassment. He gets very depressed and anxious when FIL makes a scene with people.

I'm so sorry that you and your husband are going through this. The thing that stands out for me reading your post is how much your husband is affected (you mentioned him being depressed) and how you can support him. What you didn't mention is how this is having an affect on your life. Living with someone who has depression is very very difficult. You also deserve to have a voice here in something that affects your life.
I can hear how lovely your husband is, the way you feel about him shines through, but there are two things to consider here. He has a choice of how to deal with his mother (please don't flame me for saying that people - I know so well that the FOG isn't at all easy to get past), but you also have a right to have people in your life who affect it negatively.
This isn't just about your husbands feelings. Yours are important too. He should be considering you in all of this just as you are considering him.
I'm sorry if I'm projecting my stuff onto you here - we are currently separating after 15 years as I've realised how much of my life has been affected by his relationship by his parents. It's taken me walking away for him to see just how much it was affecting everything.
You cannot help him here. He has to help himself.

Saying all that (I've realised the above post may sound harsh so apologies)
If you want practical advice on how to support him and there is no money for a counsellor then what I can suggest is encouraging your husband to think about how he is with your children.-I'm sure that it's totally different! It will help him to really understand (as opposed to simply being able to say) that the way mil behaves is wrong. That may help him to stop internalising what she says and see that it's not true, which may help him to feel less low after speaking to her. Good luck to both of you and everyone else in similar situations.