I think my brother is married to a narcissist

[DayKay]

My sil has always been horrible. We couldn't understand her behaviour at first but she used to accuse my family of not making an effort with her and treating her badly, when we hadn't.
We tried to make amends. She's quite materialistic so we bought her nice gifts for her birthday and other occasions. I'd email and text her and see how she was. She would reply but never initiate any conversation. We would always try to make her feel included but she always had some sore point. My brother gave up trying to ask her to stop being rude to us as it it just made her worse.
She's polite enough when my brother was around, but often when he was out of earshot, she'd make some horrible PA comment.
My mum is often sad about how things are with her and feels cut off from my brother and her grandchildren. Sil has no sense of humour at all and is quite limited in what she talks about (we've always tried to include the topics she feels she can talk about). She also lies quite blatantly about things we've apparently said.

I now cannot stand her and make no effort with her whatsoever. Its a horrible situation for my brother. He's not one to open up so I don't know what their relationship is like but I know this situation isn't easy for him.

I don't really know what I'm asking as I know everyone is different and even with narcissism, there must be degrees of it?

I guess I just want to know if it does sound like she's a narcissist and how we can deal with her. A friend who knows about the situation said 'I bet you can't wait for her to get some comeuppance' but I don't want that.
I'd just love to be able to maintain a decent, polite relationship with her but that means she has to change which I doubt will ever happen!

So whats the next best thing?

She sounds v hard work. How frustrating that she's causing a rift between you and your brother.

She reminds me of my DM, who is a PITA/bully/narcissist - call it what you will, she's a misery. The comments behind your back, only one topic of conversation, professionally bloody offended by EVERYTHING, needs to be treated with kid gloves etc, is v familiar. Everything goes mum's way, or she sulks, cries, threatens suicide etc.
I ignore her a lot. A LOT. Tis the only way I've found to cope.
Oh, and the 'calling her out, ('sorry, WHAT DID YOU SAY? I didn't catch it, could you repeat it?' etc) makes her think twice these days.

Hope your DB sees the light soon.

Ok I suppose one thing you could do is call a truce and have a sit down with her and ask if there is anything that's upset her as your feeling things are strained???

One last thing. No card from her? That means no card from your brother I guess he didn't get a card from you either.....

In which case, I genuinely don't know what else you can do. If your brother does not wish to discuss it, it's unlikely she will change unless he is actively trying to tackle the problem within the family unit.

I would ask your brother how best to deal with SIL - if a fallout does ensue (it will eventually, I'm sorry to say - it's unavoidable if she is continuing this behaviour) it is worth finding out whether your brother is going to be able to allow you and your family a part in his/childrens lives. Alternatively, is he going to stand with her and show solidarity and you'll never see them again, which is not what you want. Least that way you know what the options are if something does occur.

My friend has a SIL who sounds a little similar - she's an emotional manipulative, a gossip and a liar to boot. Her brother just blindly puts up with it and my friend doesn't want to lose contact with brother and her niece. Her policy is to not take the bait - her SIL likes to try and goad her at all opportunities and my friend just remains pleasant to her and appears unaffected. Sounds like my friend's SIL is relatively minor in this case though, and if your SIL does have narcissistic tendencies, she'll pull out the stops to be heard.

My mum has confided in me on the provision that I do not mention any of it to my brother. I agreed to her conditions so I can't really bring it up. Before anyone says anything, my
Mum is not lying, she just doesn't want to be responsible for any fallout or come between my brother and his wife. She is already aware of how fragile the mil/sil relationship is so is very careful. Maybe that makes her an enabler too?

As for the birthday cards, we re not really into cards and stuff as a family. Get togethers yes, texts and phone calls, yes, spoiling each other's kids on birthdays, yes but not amongst ourselves.

I'll definitely do the calling out. If I ask her if any things wrong she'll just say no.

I appreciate everyone's input so thank you.

Think you need to speak to your mum and say the only way you'll get some resolution is speaking to your brother.

However, you can't be the messenger. Both of you need to speak to him about your own situations that you have been personally involved in.

When you speak to him, I think you need to offer some solutions/resolutions too. You can't force someone to be nice or have a close relationship with you. However, basic civility (saying thank you for presents etc) can be maintained. It doesn't have to be a big diatribe.

Separately, could your brother bring the children to family events so SIL doesn't have to attend them all?

I don't feel this describes a narcissistic, more a miserable old cow. My sister has a daughter in law who is very similar to your sil. She treads on egg shells around her.
Think it best to try & shrug off her moodiness & not get drawn into her nastiness- know its a hard situation. I can guarantee this behaviour is born out of insecurity & jealousy.

She is provoking you all to get a reaction so that she can run to your DB, her DH, to tell him how horrible you are to her. Do not give her any reaction at all, other than politeness. That is the only way to deal with people like this. Even asking if there is anything wrong will be used against you.

I use this tactic successfully with a relative of mine & they are increasingly making themselves look unhinged as they go to ever more extreme lengths to annoy me. It will never work as I play this game much better than they do.

I feel sorry for your DM though, she should not have to deal with this nastiness.

wss^^

the blatant lying, the rewriting of past events, her lack of empathy to any situation and her coldness

some people may not be full blown narcissists but many people have narcissistic traits which is what you are picking up on.

i have an older sister who i am NC with as a result of her narcissism - i'm convinced she has full blown narcissistic personality disorder as opposed to just being a narcissistic person. She is 5 years older than me and i'm 35. in all that time she has never shown any interest in me or my life - that is unless there is something in it for her. for example if we spoke on the phone i would spend an hour or so listening to her moan and complain and talk about herself and the second i tried to turn the conversation to me or someone else she would 'have to go now' and put the phone down. she never had anything positive to say about me - to me or anyone else - the only time she ever said anything positive was to congratulate me on passing my gcse's! despite having been there for her through thick and thin this has never been reciprocated and she believes the world revolves around her and her 'superiority'. this is just one example out of many over the years. eventually i'd had enough of her and went NC. My life is so much better for it.

Mmm, just read this all and was wondering if she is deliberating trying to isolate your brother from his family, because that is what it sounds like.

Having been in an abusive relationship where my Ex tried to isolate me from my support base, that is what stands out here.

I have been in a somewhat similar situation with an in-law who was extremely difficult to get along with and who palpably despised everything about our family. We felt obliged to invite this person along to family events which were then always ruined by this person's unpleasantness. Eventually we were forced by external events - of a type unlikely to happen in your case - to have a big 'clear-the'air' confrontation.

What I learnt from that was fascinating. This person was convinced all along that we did not like them and had interpreted every single thing we had done - however benign it had seemed to us - in a very negative way. It really made me face the fact that families are all very different - one might like big shouty gatherings whereas another might prefer something more focussed; one family might think a text on a birthday was fine, another might find that insultingly insufficient. Everybody's expectations are complex and deeply embedded, and people can find it difficult to look at unfamiliar behaviour and think, "They are doing their best." Add to that some insecurity or competitiveness, or the feeling that it is one person up against a united group, and it's a mess that is hard to unravel.

If your SIL has decided that you dislike her - however unreasonably - she may feel that all her behaviour is entirely justified. I think it is interesting that you mention your SIL's sister. Do you get a sense that her own family find her difficult? Have you socialised with her family enough to see how they behave in a group? This could provide you with some clues.

In terms of how to proceed, I doubt you will get much from a forced discussion to clear the air. If your brother can't shed any light on the way she behaves - and my relative didn't help with this either - the only thing you can control is how you react. I would suggest that you all stop expecting the same reactions from her that you would get from other members of your family (e.g. to birthday presents) as your expectations of 'normal' behaviour are just making you resentful. Try to be civil but detached. If it helps, try to treat her as you would a young child who behaved thoughtlessly. Don't take her behaviour personally, don't mull it over for hours with your relatives. Observe it and move on. Just be grateful you don't have to live with her!

Oh my gosh this could have been me speaking! My sil is exactly the same! I mean exactly! Is her name Hollie? LOL After 13 years of her talking bad about us, making mountains out of molehills, I did as others suggested, I got to where i couldn't stand being around her. Everything was about her, she got to where she didn't want to be around us and pouted or made rude remarks and i'm sure my brother had to listen to a bunch of garbage when they were alone. It was insane. Long story short he basically had to choose us or her I'm thinking because my Mother asked him when they wanted to celebrate her and me and my husbands birthdays, we are all in December and share one party (which she hated), and she was away at a work party that my parents had just left (they were clients) and he basically blew a fuse and accused my wonderful sweet parents of treating them like second class citizens who favor me (older sister) which isn't true at all! If anything he got more (inherited fathers business and all equipment). Anyway, she finally convinced him they were being treated right and my brother had to have it out with my parents while she was gone and boy did he. Made my mom cry and my dad break out in a rash. They were staying at their home and the next morning they got up and left and went back home. (2 hours away). I tried to talk to him why he did that and I prayed first and remained calm, I asked him why he felt that way and everything he said was complete nonsense and not true, his voice was shaking and he was super aggressive. When I defended agains false and twisted statements he got angry and told me to F off and don't ever bother me again. That was the last thing he said to me. Before he said that he attacked my husband with non-truths and I told him I'm sorry you feel that way, I love you and he said you don't love me, F off and don't bother me again. My parents have reached out to him but basically in the past 5 years he has had contact with anyone in our family and have turned their friends away from his business (mechanic) Very sad but unless they see the truth to what they married there cannot be any reconciliation. When he married her she made him put everything he owned in her name as well, even an old truck. She came into the marriage with nothing, probably some debt. She is 10 years older and had been married before for 3 years. He figured it out, my brother hasn't. My brother is shy and she was his first girlfriend and she found out he owned his home and a couple of vehicles, family business. She saw $$$$. Very sad. I pray for both of them. She clearly has a personality disorder and is a narcissist, he is co-dependent and she destroyed his self esteem