Would you get married in these circumstances?

[yellowpanda]

I've been lurking here for a while and found loads of useful advice, but this is the first time I'm actually posting something. So please forgive me if I'm not that proficient with the acronyms etc.

I'm sorry this is likely to get very long, but I do feel it's necessary to give the full background of the situation.

I'm in my early 30-s, DP 4 years older. Been together for 4 years and have a DC, who has just turned 1.

I have always seen myself getting married once I meet the right person. I've had only one serious long-term relationship in the past, but in hindsight have to say that I never wanted to marry him. When I met DP, it instantly felt very different. Unfortunately the circumstances in which we met made the logical sequence of events leading up to having a family a bit more difficult. He had separated from his exW, but they did not initiate the divorce, because of his immigration status. They had married young, grown apart and separated very amicably. No children. No assets to divide. I never had any problems with his status of being legally married.

We talked about getting married in the future. Discussed what our wedding could be like, how to arrange it (with our families and friends spread all over the world) etc. He always expressed that when he was getting married again, he wanted to do it the "proper" way. Not necessarily a big expensive wedding, but a celebration for friends and family. His first wedding was very low key, even their parents didn't attend. I have to admit that during these conversations he never mentioned that he wants to get married soon.

Anyways, 2 years after we met his immigration status was resolved and they filed for divorce. Around the same time we decided to start a family. The decision came very naturally and I have never regretted it. At that point I also knew that we would not be married, when our child is born, but that did not bother me.

The divorce finally came through around a year ago, just shortly after DC was born. This has generally been a very happy year, but a few months ago I started picking up on some of his negative comments about the legal aspects of marriage. While I was in no rush to get married (and was probably quite naively waiting for him to propose at some point), I started to realise that he has no reason to want to get married. I had moved away from my home country to start a family with him. Now he had me here, had a child, happy family life and home (that he had bought). What was he gonna gain from getting married when he already had everything he wanted?

Obviously I panicked and realised that I had played my cards really badly (with the help of some wise people on MN). So a few months ago we had a serious conversation where I told him that I wanted to get married. I explained that all his negative comments had made me feel that he didn't want to marry and I needed to know this to plan my future.

As an important side note: Until my maternity leave, I was still working for my employer in my home country, spending weeks in the UK working from distance. I receive a generous maternity pay for 18 months and my job is kept safe until the child is 3 years old. I am looking to go to work in the UK once DC is 18 months, but expect to start nowhere close to where my career had progressed in my home country. So I fully admit having put myself in a very vulnerable situation. That is why I need to know where I stand in regards to legal protection that marriage brings. I could return to my job in my home country (and get almost free municipal childcare) before DC turns 3.

DP said that the conversation we had a few months ago was a "wake-up" call for him. He admitted of having gotten too comfortable and felt that in practical terms we were already married. He seemed slightly surprised that marriage was so important to me. But said that when he thinks about it, it is the next logical step in our relationship (rather than buying a bigger house and having DC2, which he had previously been talking about). And repeatedly said that he wants to marry me.

I left it at that and in my head gave him up to a year to initiate a follow-up. Then last night the issue popped up again (unplanned and unprepared). He told that he had been thinking about it a lot, but felt unsure what he should do next (whether he should propose, ask if I want to be engaged - what?! etc.). I told that in my view I have made it clear that I want us to get married, so there's little point with romantic proposals. To me the moment he says "yes", we are engaged. I saw that he was struggling with the way all this was going to be another low key planned wedding (like his first). He repeatedly explained that for him the legal aspects of marriage are off-putting and he doesn't want to think about them. The only reason he would like to go through with it is to have the celebration of our commitments.

We calmly explained our views and feelings and after 2 hours of discussion he came to the conclusion that he in fact does not believe in marriage, but is willing to do it because he loves me and wants to make me happy.

In all honesty I believe that this is true. He might have been misleading me by talking about getting married simply because he sensed that this was what I was expecting. And it probably took him all this time to realise and admit that he didn't want to get married. I don't think that he's been deliberately trying to mislead me, but I can't help but feel a bit betrayed.

What would you do in my situation? I want to be married to him, not just because I love him and I want to spend the rest of the life with him. But also because I have always felt I want to marry him (and I guess for whatever reason marriage is important to me). But now it just doesn't feel right because I know that he does not feel the same "need" to get married.

I have to add that I do not doubt he loves me, but finding out that he doesn't want to marry, gives me a very unpleasant unsettling feeling. Our relationship is otherwise very good. He's very caring, affectionate and loyal. He does his fair share of the housework and childcare and has a wonderful relationship with DC.

I am afraid that this issue will affect our relationship and my feelings towards him. How can I marry someone who doesn't want to marry me?

Thank you for reading it so far. I'd really appreciate some objective opinions.

I don't think you can marry someone who doesn't want to marry you, but I do think that's quite a loaded description of what seems to have happened.

You say he is willing to marry you because he loves you and wants to make you happy. That's not a bad reason to get married but he shouldn't make you feel that you are coercing him into it. He has to put his big boy pants on and make a decision about whether or not he wants to get married (taking into account how important it is to you and also the legal protection it offers you). It's ironic that he was married to safeguard his legal status but doesn't seem to appreciate that marriage will afford you similar legal safeguards.

I know you talked for two hours but I would be having another conversation to establish what marriage means to him and what he feels he is offering you at the moment that compensates for not being married. If he's reasonable then he has to see that his position is putting you at a disadvantage. He also has to see that begrudgingly marrying someone is pretty disrespectful to the person he is supposed to love. You can't decide for him that he's going to marry you (which seems the ridiculous situation he has put you in). He has to make that decision and make it wholeheartedly. If he won't and marriage is important to you then you might need to consider leaving the relationship.

You are resident in the UK at the moment?

Are you on the tenancy or mortgage?

Sorry for the questions but they will inform the answers I think

Marriage, to me, ticks two boxes.

Firstly it is a public acknowledgment of a relationship. The culmination of your romance. The end of your courtship and the beginning of your adult life together. Hearts and flowers, fairy dust and rainbows.

Secondly, it is a legal contract. This contract gives each spouse rights and responsibilities. When one spouse has to compromise their career and earning potential in order to provide child care, then their future needs considering should a split occur.

So he will marry you if you really want him to? He doesn't believe in marriage but will go through with it if you make him? Hmmm. Let's think about your security should the relationship founder. He owns the property not you? You are considering moving countries where your career will be retarded?

If I were you I would seriously think about safeguarding your future whether you marry or not. Is he really the one for you?

Thank you for the responses!
Yes I am UK resident. No, I'm not on the mortgage, but contribute towards paying it (based on the share of income). We're planning to go over to joint finances when I'll go to work.

Why should he believe in marriage when he was married to someone else while living with you and having a baby with you? His marriage was meaningless, you both treated it as such, and now you are surprised when it would mean nothing for you to be married? There is no criticism there, btw, its a statement of fact.

Its up to you. I agree with him, and wouldn't marry him if I were you. Would you want to be married to someone who doesn't want to get married?

Okay, I am going to go on the assumption that you are happy in this relationship, and it's just this issue of marriage which is weighing down on you.

Firstly, even if you marry, it doesn't mean that you are forced to stay in the UK forever. He could move to your home country with you if you don't find work in three years which you consider suitable. DISCUSS THIS POSSIBILITY NOW!!! How open is he to it? Hopefully you already discussed these practicalities ages ago before having a child....

Anyway, I don't personally think that this is a big deal. I think it's quite natural for people to have a jaded view of marriage if they are divorced. What's important is his feelings for you, and how he treats you. I think his attitude is not bad in fact - I know plenty of people who don't "believe" in marriage, but get married anyway because they know it's important to their partner. It's about respecting their views as well.

So if your partner loves you and treats you well, and is happy to marry you out of respect of your feeling on the issue, despite the fact that he isn't mad keen on marriage....I don't think you have a problem here.

What you may need to do though is to work out what kind of wedding you want. Do neither of you want a traditional wedding (cake, white dress etc)? Or would one of you quite like to go down that route? If you have polar views, can you compromise with something traditional but very small?

He probably won't want a repeat of his first wedding, because it will bring back bad memories, so I would recommend doing something very different.

That said and done, I am pretty biased. My partner and I have been together for three years, and marriage has always been a non negotiable point for me. I have a strong preference to be married before we have children, but that's partly because my family is quite traditional.

My partner on the other hand doesn't consider marriage to be of any importance whatsoever. His view is that the absence or presence of a ring makes no difference to the fundamental relationship. There are men that cheat on their wives the day after their wedding. There are unmarried men who remain faithful to their partner their entire lives.

However, like you, we are different nationalities, and aside from the social commitment side of the house (which is really what interests me), there are also legal interests to be married.

So after quite a few discussions on the issue over the years, we came to the conclusion ages ago that he would propose when he felt ready to do so, but with a vaguely unspoken time frame in mind (which was about 18 months). He totally caught me off guard by proposing way way earlier than I had expected!

So let me get this straight, when marriage benefitted him it was OK, when the legal protection that marriage affords benefits you, it's the passive aggressive 'I'll do it only because you want to'. I think you are being far too generous to this man. I think he has known for some time that he didn't want to get married again and made all the right noises to keep you sweet, hoping that you would get sick of asking or that you'd change your mind.

What precisely are the legal aspects of marriage that he's uncomfortable with? Is it that, now he has a significant asset to his name, that he'd rather not share it? I'd remind him that you have made sacrifices too and are prepared to make more but it would not be prudent to leave your job and further exposure yourself financially without the safeguards that marriage affords.

Now that you have a child you two need to sit down and create wills and have some sort of financial plan. It's about time this man stopped 'making all the right noises' and started being honest.

Personally, I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to marry a man who appears to be happy for his partner to make all the sacrifices.

Why doesn't he want to think about the legal aspects? That seems to be the bit that's causing him trouble. What's his worry exactly?

Listen to him. He doesn't really want to marry you. He's very happy with things as they are. If you marry, the first rough patch and it'll be ' well, you were the one who wanted to get married, not me'

"No, I'm not on the mortgage, but contribute towards paying it (based on the share of income). We're planning to go over to joint finances when I'll go to work".

What?!. That needs to be discussed now and you need to be added to his mortgage. My guess is he will not.

I doubt very much if he'll marry you at all. He is quite happy at he is so why change. He benefits far more from this arrangement that yourself.
Your own legal position currently is precarious to say the very least, you have no legal rights at all. Common law does not exist as a status in the UK.

You contribute towards his mortgage even though you are not named on it?. This is simply mad on your part.

BTW do your children have his surname as well?. I think you have been far too generous towards him throughout. You need to seriously think about your own future with this man because there may not actually be one.

Thank you so much for all the responses! I'm truly amazed how many take the time to try to offer their perspective and best advice. So many sensible suggestions.

I'm trying to answer the questions raised.
As much as I am generally really happy in this relationship and can see us staying together forever, I can also feel how his attitude towards this issue is starting to build resentment on my part. And this is not the relationship I want to stay in.

I have put myself in a vulnerable situation (to say the least), having accepted a setback in my career and becoming financially dependent on him. To be honest I did not worry about it too much before, but after having a child, I really feel that I have to act more responsibly to protect myself and DC. So I realise that I have until DC turns 3 to safeguard us, most logically in the form of getting married. And if that does not happen, I have a job and a life to return to. Of course if he doesn't agree with that, I might have to seek the court's permission to take DC with me. Which adds to the anxiety about the situation TBH. I am planning to seek legal advice on this. My logic says that I have fairly good reasons for moving country (with DC), as until then I have a job waiting, very affordable childcare available and family that can help with childcare. As opposed to us splitting and me living here on benefits because I cannot afford childcare and have no family to help (other than DP of course). But I'm sure law is not guaranteed to see reason. Would appreciate if someone has any experience with similar situation and could advise how likely I would be to be allowed to take DC out of UK (he was born here, but has dual nationality).

kaykayblue, we have obviously discussed moving to my country or to any other quite a bit over the years. TBH he seemed quite open to those prospects in the beginning, but nowadays rarely seems to consider it. I have to admit that the probability of me having a fairly decent career in the UK is bigger than him finding a job (any job really) in my home country. We can have a much more convenient life for his salary here than we could have for only my salary in my country. The cost of living is almost the same, whereas the incomes are 3-4 times lower. Sad but true. That is the prime reason we decided that me moving to the UK is a better option. And I have to admit that it did not occur to me that I needed more safety (legally) before I moved (which I see being unbelievably naive and stupid in hindsight). I knew I would have an income for another 18 months and probably didn't think that much further beyond it (another stupidity really). As an excuse I can say that I did not realise what the cost of childcare would be and how it would seriously limit my ability to cope independently.
Happy for you that your OH was reasonable enough and proposed.

When it comes to him not wanting to think about legal side of marriage, it seems to be that he knows that it will make him more exposed/vulnerable and why would anybody want that. I had no property and no real savings to talk about, and an income 4 times smaller than his. So what do I really add, right?

What seems to prove that he has not really given marriage a serious thought is that up until yesterday he seemed to be unaware that all assets are shared in marriage. If that really came as a surprise to him, then I can see why it would put him off.
So I guess he thinks that if he can ignore that unattractive part of getting married, then he feels happier with the concept.
What he seems to be overlooking is that I have already exposed myself massively and made myself really vulnerable. And if he wants us to make a life together, he should reciprocate and offer me some protection.
He agreed that we have to look into protecting me legally if we don't get married right away (at some point during the conversation he proposed doing it in September when his parents are over).

AttilaTheMeerkat, we looked into getting a joint mortgage when he was buying, but as I did not have an income in the UK, banks would not have lent as much. I don't know if and how easy it would be to change it now. I was assuming (stupidly) that we were getting married and that would solve the problem.
I have felt a bit uneasy about paying for the mortgage, because I know it is a big no-no. He of course has explained it by saying that I would have to pay rent somewhere anyhow. I have told him that while we could see it this way in a short run, paying for his mortgage will stop me from saving up/paying for my own property and this would leave me with nothing in case we split. Once again I saw that anticipated marriage would solve that problem.

grocklebox, your perspective does make sense. I guess I have chosen to overlook it.

I know that I have made all these life-changing decision in the assumption of marriage and that would give me the protection I have been expecting to receive by it.
But now I am starting to doubt if that would be the right move, not only because it no longer feels right, but maybe he is not this considerate and loving man I always saw. Feeling very sad.

Yes I would marry him under those circumstances.

It may not be the fairy tale proposal that you had dreamed of as a little girl but that is not the most important thing.

FWIW it sounds as though you have a very healthy and honest relationship. Those are two very good reasons to be married.

Marry him!

My DH was not keen on marriage because of the expense and fuss. It was important to me so he did propose and we had a lovely, low key wedding (16 guests).

Now coming up to our 12 th anniversary and still very happy. The fairy tale is often just that. Trust, openness and compromise are also important.

I would marry him deffo. If you're sure you want to, and also he does sound like a good partner in general, and it will keep you safe financially.

It ain't always a bed of roses, and that counts for the first bit too.

Make a joint appointment with a financial advisor with a view to getting your name added to the mortgage and make an appointment with a solicitor to make wills.

The most worrying part of his behaviour is that he thinks that he gets to call the shots. He has dangled the marriage carrot, which encouraged you to make sacrifices, knowing full well that he didn't want to make similar sacrifices. However, you don't need to be married to make legal/ financial commitments, make the appointments and show him that in a partnership not only one person makes the decisions.

However, you're now realising that you aren't on the same page (big time) and the assumptions, that he has encouraged you to make, don't have any real foundations. Do you really want to bind yourself further to someone who despite making all the right noises, doesn't view your relationship as a partnership.