stupid argument, but am I a fool?

[Biscuitsneeded]

Just had a silly argument about nothing with DP, in front of our kids. He was very impatient with DS2 and made him cry, and then when I asked him to give DS a chance to process an instruction without shouting at him he went mad at me in front of our other son, screaming at me to fuck off and walking up to me with his hand raised as if he was going to hit me. I stood my ground as I didn't think he'd do it (he didn't) and asked him quietly not to swear at me, and he just kept repeating that I was a bitch and I should fuck off and all I ever do is criticise him. I told him he was being unreasonable and childish and he just got even more abusive so I left the room and took DS with me. So now I am skulking upstairs and will probably just go to bed, in the spare room.
I'm not really even upset on my own account; I had a fairly conflict-ridden childhood and I have a very hard shell as a result, but I feel very bad about the fact that my sons witnessed this. I would hate to think they might grow up and speak to a woman like that. DS1 is generally a very good boy but this year has got in trouble a couple of times at school when he's got very angry about something. Or he will throw an almighty tantrum on me (aged 9) in a way that I can see other parents tutting over. Ds 2 is currently a pretty laid-back little chap and I pray he stays that way.
Am I wrong to stay with DP? He's actually a good man (I'm not deluded, I know this sort of verbal abuse is wrong but he is a good dad, very trustworthy, loves his boys, can be very kind). I don't know if I love him, whatever that means, but I do trust him and value him. Am I a fool for thinking that staying with a man who does this sort of thing occasionally is better than the emotional toll of separating, which I know from friends' experiences doesn't leave children unscarred either?

He was very impatient with DS2 and made him cry, and then when I asked him to give DS a chance to process an instruction without shouting at him a very good dad yep.

How often does this happen?

DS1 is already learning this behaviour.

I would not stay with anyone who acted towards me like that whether in front of kids or not. So, yes, in my opinion it would be better to separate.

I'm not deluded

In the kindest possible way, yes you are. Extremely deluded. Probably because you grew up in a household full of conflict and therefore have a very disordered view of what's acceptable and what's not.

Your sons have a very strong chance of being like their dad when they're older. Where do you think you're dh got his behaviour?

I can excuse a bit of verbal in front of the children but no way is it acceptable for him to come towards you threatening to hit you.

If he was a good dad he would never do that infront of his kids.

Yes I know. But nobody is flawless and we both work in difficult jobs and sometimes I lose my patience when the DSs don't do what I ask too. On this occasion I was the one who was calm and felt my DP was being unfair to my DS, but sometimes when I am struggling he will step in and take over to stop me losing my temper. He's not habitually unpleasant, it's just that when he is, he has absolutely no taboos and will call me all the vile words you can think of, whereas even if I'm really angry I might say "I've fucking had enough" but I don't actually direct the abusive language at him. I guess we're neither of us great role models.

why did he come towards you with his hand raised as though to hit you if not to intimidate you?

What would you do if he did hit you?

how do you feel he is teaching your sons to behave in their future relationships? how do you feel he is teaching them to see you?

Can you see yourself sitting down with him and having a discussion about how threatening and intimidating it is to have him come at you in a violent pose and the message it sends to your children?

In that case I suppose you have to try and do a cost-benefit analysis and work out what's preferable for the children: their parents splitting up; or witnessing their father screaming abuse at their mother and threatening her with violence.

You are deluded, sorry, there is no excuse for his behaviour.

This is an abusive atmosphere that will harm your children. Please leave.

It may not be habitual (how often does this happen?) but one instance of something like that would be more than enough for me to leave. It's simply not natural nor part of what should be, a loving respectful family relationship. What an unpleasant and scary atmosphere that must present. I hope you find the strength to realise it doesn't have to be like this and take steps to protect the kids and yourself.

He raised his hand because, for whatever reason, he felt extremely angry. I don't understand why because the row came up out of nowhere, but I knew he wouldn't actually hit me. Still, as you say, it's not something his children should see or indeed emulate even if nobody carries through.
Yes, I imagine I will be able to say to him that approaching me at speed with an arm raised is unacceptable. And he knows it is. Just as I know that some of the stuff I do and say when at the end of my tether is not appropriate, even though I always regret it afterwards.

If he actually did hit me Hecate I think I would feel very differently. He hit me once, several years ago. It was a slap on the side of my face, and he was mortified afterwards. The children didn't see it. I told him if he ever did that again that would be the end of our relationship, and certainly if he hit me in front of the children we would be out of the house without a backward glance. I know what I would be thinking if I was somebody else reading this thread but it's never that clear-cut when you're actually involved, is it?

You are deluded. You need to end the relationship. To safeguard yourself and your kids.

It's not ok. Please don't continue to raise children in this environment.

My ex raised his arm as if to hit me about 6 months ago. It was at the door when he was collecting the DCs for the weekend.

I called 101, had the incident logged, had a police-fella out to fill in copious forms ... he advised that it was extremely damaging for the children to witness such a thing, as well as the verbal abuse of course. He advised me to let my ex know that if it happened again, the police would take it further, and also the matter would be reported to Social Services.

I haven't had any trouble since.

I realise he's not your Ex, he's your 'D'P, but really it's not acceptable behaviour any more than my Ex's was. I would think strongly about having the incident logged with the police to show him you won't accept threats and abuse. Do it quickly while it's still 'fresh' and at the forefront of your mind.

Really, my advice is to LTB, but if you're not at that stage yet psychologically, I strongly suggest you still have this incident logged.

OK, well it seems I have stuff to think about. I have to sleep now anyway as I have to get up very early for work. Maybe tomorrow I will wake up and see a bit more clearly. My poor boys.

But thank you all.

I would see this as an opportunity perhaps to show the boys that his behaviour is unacceptable by asking him to leave. If you both explain that they are loved very much by you both, no matter what, the impact of a split would be far less damaging than if you stay together and carry on.

I hope you are ok.

This man is categorically not a "good father

Nope. It isn't. It's the easiest thing in the world to be outside a situation and see it all crystal clear and know what is the logical course of action but it is never that clear from inside the situation. Emotions fuck all that up.

I am not going to go down the ltb route because braying that at you does not help you right now. I couldn't care less about your husband, I have a very low opinion of the man you have described here tonight, but cries for you to act now and ltb are not helpful to you, right here, right now. But I'd be lying if I tried to say that I don't think that you should fully consider your options.

But at the very least you do need to be able to talk about it and you know that. You do need to know that something is very wrong with this picture and it needs fixing. For your sake and for the sake of your children. Growing up in a house where there is verbal abuse and hand raising intimidation is not acceptable. Do you want your children to hide away inside the hard shell that you had to grow in order to protect yourself? Of course you don't. No parent should want that.

It needs to change. You know it does. He has hit you before, so this coming at you hand raised is more than an empty threat because you already know he has it in him to hit you. At the moment he fears the consequences enough to stop himself. What if that changes?

Just because something is a particular way doesn't mean it should stay that way. Clearly this is not a good way for the children to think adult relationships play out and so something needs to be done.

I hope he doesn't hit you again. I hope that you can talk and look at what's best for the children and what it is unacceptable that they see and agree in what way there must be changes and how they are going to happen.

damn right he isn't, AF.

Thank you Hecate, for your understanding. I can't leave him any day soon, for all kinds of reasons, but I can't have my boys in such a poisonous atmosphere. I'll try to talk to him tonight.

I did actually ask him to leave after he nearly hit me and called me names last night. I said "I think you'd better go out for a bit" but he just told me to fuck off as he was about to eat (low blood sugar doesn't do either of us any favours, I guess). I was already in pyjamas at 8.30 at night as had been up since 5.15am and had worked a very long day, so I couldn't really go anywhere without getting dressed again. I did want to make the point to him that I was serious about not tolerating being spoken to in that way.

I need to lick my wounds a bit I think. I have one friend who knows the situation and I will talk to her about it too. I know I could turn up on her doorstep at any time with the DC if need be.

I just looked down at my desk diary and this week's quote is "Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we didn't".

You are being understanding of him as if he were a child. He knows hitting you is a line you have drawn so he has enough control to stop himself. Instead he swears at you. He is waiting to see of you will draw another line.