please someone help me think clearly and be strong, feel like I am going crazy

[newnamesamegame]

This is going to be long...

I know that barring some major epiphany in his mind I need to leave my H. He drinks every night (3-4 cans of beer) and most weekends goes out Friday and Saturday night basically drinking with strangers or people he barely knows. (To be fair, he doesn't get totally inebriated or stay out really late, its just the dependence, the predictability and the absence of consideration for me that upsets me.)

Every weekend since my DD has been born three years ago I have asked him what he wants to do at the weekend, he says nothing (usually either says we need to clean the house or that he is too tired). By arrangement he goes out every Friday unless I have something in the diary. So when Saturday rolls around we (mainly I) clean the house and then invariably by about 3 or 4 in the afternoon he will disappear off to do some errand (get his hair cut/go to the bank) and then spend three or four hours in the pub. I have been asking him for years to moderate his drinking, he has very occasionally agreed to do it but never followed through beyond maybe cutting down by a single can, and most of the time just tells me I'm paranoid and he refuses to be controlled by me.

Aside from the drinking it just really hurts me that he refuses to prioritize me and my DD in his plans. He refuses to plan anything at all at weekends unless I basically present things as a fait accompli, he will almost never come with us to do anything (parks/museum/cinema) unless under duress and will never initiate anything like this yet he finds hours every weekend to sit in bars with people he hardly knows. If I try to challenge him on it he just says he is stressed, hates his work, had a hard upbringing etc, or alternates into saying I am trying to control his life and he doesn't want to be a slave any more.

He has also started shirking his share of financial responsibility and I'm having to constantly ask him for his share of bills/mortgage payments.

He is not a monster, can be kind and thoughtful when he is not drinking, has never been physically abusive and is incredibly kind and loving to my daughter.

I have been reading middledaughter's thread about living with a problem drinker and there are so many parallels with my own life.

I know the situation is unsustainable and that I need to take control of my life rather than waiting for him to change.

But I just can't bring myself to break my daughter's heart by forcing him to move out. I know on paper its the right thing to do but I just can't find the strength. It is starting to drive me crazy and I am becoming severely anxious. Every time I think about the effect on her I just lose my resolve.

Please someone help me see this situation for what it is....

I could have written this about my ex, except he got totally wasted some weekends. I'd never know when he was coming in, he'd make me out to be making things up if I expected him in at a certain time etc.
I had to leave him in the end. He prioritised booze over me every time, occasionally nut drinking for a few days, or only having one to shore me he was in control. He wasn't.
The events that led me to leave him were years of that behavior, but a weekend accumulating in him emotionally abusing me, drinking all day for two days, being an absolute vile to everyone stuff us, disappearing, passing out. I realised he would never change.
I'm not saying yours is as severe, but don't make excuses for problem drinking, it is not ok if it makes you unhappy.

Huge hugs for you, reliving it there has been horrible.

Ps, used to break my heart going swimming, parks, shows just me and the kids when he would always always choose the pub, mostly with strangers, over us.

You may be breaking your daughters heart for a short while by telling him to move out but think of it this way..

If he stays, you are showing your daughter that you and her are not important to him. That your relationship is a normal one and that's how relationships should be. You and the kids are second best..not even that in this case. That his plans are always more important than what you want to do or where the kids want to go.

She will grow up watching you both very carefully and will model her relationships on what you and your DP/H have. Do you want her to have the relationship you are in now? Is this the best example you can set her? Would you be happy knowing she is in a relationship like yours?

No? Then you know what you need to do.

littlegreenlight yes that's it -- every weekend I try to do something special with my DD (I work full time in a very stressful, long hours job so I'm lucky if I see her for two hours on an average weekday). Even if its just a trip to the park/swimming etc, I make sure we get out and have some fun experiences.

He seems to have no interest in this at all will very occasionally take her to softplay/park if pushed but is very reluctant to do things as a family. He would always rather either be watching TV, sleeping, cleaning the house or drinking. As you say, it breaks my heart when I see families including dads -- doing these things and I have to wonder whether my DD has noticed that he never wants to do anything like this.

I assume his family set-up was like this -- his mum kept the house, his dad worked (and drank) and he just thinks this is what family life is about.

He says I've changed a lot and am only interested in doing things with my DD, not with him. But I ask him all the time if he will come out with us to do things and he says I'm just putting pressure on him, that his job is very stressful and he needs to relax at weekends.

I want to relax as well, but my idea of relaxation doesn't involve bars, or not each and every weekend.

Am I being selfish by expecting him regularly not every weekend but enough for it to make a difference to plan things to do together as a family? Because he seems to think so....

The 3cs re alcoholism:-

You did not cause this
You cannot control this
You cannot cure this

What you describe in grim detail is life with an alcoholic. That is your day to day existence currently. You cannot change him but you can certainly change how you react to him.

Alcoholism is very much a family disease; you're caught up in this as much as he is and you are being profoundly affected by what is happening at home.

Middledaughter is planning to make a new life for herself with her drunkard of a H in it; you need to do the very same now as much for your DD as for yourself. Your DD will not thank you at all for continuing to allow her further exposure over the forthcoming years to her drunk dad and may not ever want to bring her own friends home. That is the impetus that should allow you to get him out of your home. Such men may well not leave easily so you may well have to employ legal means to get him out.

What do you want to teach your DD about relationships; surely not this?. Did you yourself grow up within such a home yourself?.

Would you want her to end up with an alcoholic for a partner; currently at least you are showing her that this is acceptable to you on some level.
Your DD is already growing up in a home that is on the surface ok but what lies beneath is not ok at all. She probably sees all her dad's empties and may well even come across hidden alcohol stashes in the home. She certainly sees your reactions to your drunkard H and learns from you as much as he.

You cannot rescue and or save anyone like your H; they do not want your help and are more than adept at blaming everyone else except themselves for their problems.

Yes you are right, you do need to take control of your life rather than wait for an epiphany on his part which likely will not happen and certainly will not as long as you are around. You are caught up in both an enabling and codependent dual role here; you need to break free of both these behaviours. You cannot and must not put his needs above yours. He can maintain a relationship with his DD if he wants to post divorce but I would certainly put all such relations onto a legal footing rather than any informal arrangement.

Seek legal advice asap (knowledge is power) and talk to both Womens Aid on 0808 2000 247 and Al-anon.

His primary relationship is with drink; it is not with either of you. He could well go onto lose everything and still choose to drink like he does afterwards.

His main thought currently is where the next drink is going to come from.

They all make such excuses; they are allowed to fail but you are not.

Attila I know....its just that when it comes to the crunch of actually making him move out I crumble. I can't get over that hump of actually following through.

My upbringing: my dad was a drinker too -- drank every night but in a very middle-class, wine-drinking sort of way. It used to upset me because he turned into a bore when he drank, couldn't shut up and became very overbearing. But my dad was always willing and happy to spend time with his family, loved doing things together at weekends with us.

I used to drink a fair bit in my 20s too -- most nights of the week. But I don't want my family life to have to revolve around his drinking patterns. Heavy drinking is not great at any time of life. But I feel that its one thing when you are single and footloose and another when a child is involved. He doesn't get that at all....

But the family time thing is almost worse than the drinking: my H just seems incapable of grasping that his unwillingness to plan quality time with us hurts me hugely. Whenever he goes out (which is generally every Friday and Saturday) he will make a point of coming back with presents for me and DD and will usually cook a meal -- I think in his mind this compensates for it. But I don't want another T-shirt or a bottle of nail varnish, I want to hang out with my family.

I hate the fact that he won't countenance the idea of just doing normal family activities at the weekend: going shopping, going to the park, museums, outings in the country, movies. He seems to think this is an unnecessary luxury which, because his family did without he should have to do without now, and that I am unreasonable expecting him to do it.

what's keeping you in?

if he isn't seeing your point of view there's not even a discussion going let alone some sort of compromise!

I had a feeling that you grew up with one or other parent that had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol.

Look at what you learnt and saw during your own childhood; your DD is now seeing that self same crap as you did. And look where it got you now; with someone who is himself a drunkard. You can control your drinking; this man cannot do so because its not within him.

Your family life is already being dictated to by his drinking and what he wants; its always about them and what they want. He thinks he's not doing anything wrong anyway and he thinks he can buy the two of you off. You and your DD are but of secondary importance to him after the drinking. Alcohol is truly a cruel mistress.

You can break this cycle and for your own sake you have to get over the hurdles that are stopping you from getting him out of your home. This is where the legal advice comes in as well as talking to Al-anon.

He will always give you excuses and blame you; this is what these people do and do very well. They also deny to their own face as well as others. As I said before, he is allowed to fail in his opinion and you are not.

And you need to consider this as well:-

It is true that there is almost no chance that the alcoholic will stop drinking as along as other people remove all the painful consequences for him/her. The other actors find it difficult to change. It is much easier and far less painful for them to say that the alcoholic cannot be helped, than to go through the agony of learning to play a new role.

You now need to play a new role. I would also suggest you read Co-dependant No More written by Melodie Beattie.

antimatter what's keeping me is that my DD loves her dad and I feel terrified of what is going to happen if I separate them. I know that this is the wrong way to look at it and that its for the best on the long run but I can't seem to galvanise myself to actually follow through.

Children brought up in household with an alcoholic are hugely likely to turn into alcoholics themselves.

I assume that you do not want that for your child.

You won't be breaking your child's heart. Very soon they will realise they are second to daddy's drinking companions anyway.

I think you may have to do some hard work to understand why you think staying in a relationship with an alcoholic is better than being without him.

You say - she loves him, but does he love her?
He isn't interested in spending time with her in the next few years she will think that there's something wrong with her that her dada doesn't do stuff with her.

THere's a lot to think about and plan for you - but you won't change him. Thet should be your starting point.

Did you ever hope that your mother would actually leave her H, your Dad?.

BTW are they still together now?.

She may well love her Dad but her own view of relationships is going to be well skewed if you allow her and yourself to remain within such an environment because you cannot find it within yourself currently to leave. You need to further examine your own reasons why and that may well be wrapped in some co-dependency issues you have.

He is still entitled to have a relationship with his DD post a separation but that is his choice and not one you can influence. If he chooses to still put drink first that is what he will do. He's certainly putting drink above you and your DD now.

Maybe you on some level think that he will one day wake up and say that he is truly sorry for being a drunkard arse and putting you through this. That is unlikely currently and you cannot afford to wait for an epiphany that may well not happen. You enable and excuse him at great emotional cost to yourself let alone your child who is growing up thinking all this is what happens in other people's families as well.

antimatter I'm under no illusions about this on my own part -- if we didn't have a child together I would be totally at home with it, in fact I would be positively happy about it.

Its just the thought of what it will do to her...

What do you think that staying within this is doing to her now?.

She is fast learning that she is coming in a very dim and distant second to her dad's alcoholism. Would you want her yourself to have a relationship with an alcoholic as an adult?. You're showing her that currently all this tiptoeing around him and his alcoholism problem is acceptable to you; you modify your life and behaviours to suit him. He would rather sit in bars on the weekend than spend any time with his own family; alcohol is his priority.

He can currently hold down work but for how much long in the great scheme of things?.

Attila
Its interesting that you ask me this: I didn't actively want my mum to leave my dad as a child, but I was subliminally aware that she was quite unhappy and buried a lot of her desires and personality in order to accommodate him (and by the way this wasn't only about his drinking, he was and remains an extremely forceful personality and he dominated her in almost every way, I'm pretty sure he had affairs as well.) When I was old enough to understand the link between his excessive drinking and his moods I did used to remonstrate with her to be tougher with him and lost respect for her because of her unwillingness.

I do feel a lot of resentment towards her and actually almost blame her more than him for not being tougher about it (yes I know rationally that that's wrong and unfair but at an emotional level that is how it works for me). I'm hyper aware of the possible parallels and the need to break the cycle.

They are still married although my mum has late stage dementia so not really "together" as she lives in residential accomodation. Ironically, my dad is now totally lost without her and clearly feels very guilty about his behaviour.

I'm not imagining that the drinking is a problem am I? In my more relaxed moments I sometimes wonder if I'm blowing it out of proportion. He does drink about three times over the recommended amount and drinks every day. And it does affect his moods, makes him snappy and rude. I sometimes wonder if I actually have the right to expect someone to stop drinking for me. I know that sounds totally irrational, but there's a part of me that thinks maybe I am being controlling....

No this is a drinking problem.

You are not imagining it.

What KayKay wrote.

You're basically now doing what your mother did and your DD is now you when you were a child.

www.addiction-recovery-expose.com/addiction-denial.html
You may find the above somewhat painful to read but you need to read about the 3 act play of alcoholism and your role within that. You learnt from your Dad's drinking problem how to become super-vigilant and super responsible; that is just some of the damage growing up with alcoholism did you.

You can break the cycle but you really must want to do it and look at your own self too.

I would strongly suggest you also start talking to Al-anon as well as seeking legal advice re separation.