I need to end this, do I?

[Caravanoflove]

I've nc for this and it's going to be long, sorry. I really need some perspective as I can't talk to anyone in real life.
I've been with dh for 20 years. He's self employed and always been shit with his business and money in general.
He's got into masses of debt many times through simply not earning enough (embarrassed to charge more, working for free etc).
Every time he's lied about it, I've found out, massive distress then bailed him out. To the tune of tens of thousands over the years.
I have a fairly good job, work very very long hours and we have 2 dc. I can only do my job because he is able to be flexible and pick up the kids, be off in school holidays, be off with sick kids etc.
I appreciate this and we both know he will earn much less than me as a result. However, I can not afford all our outgoings alone and he does need some income to contribute.
I have just found out he is in debt again, I have asked repeatedly if he needs money in his account this month and he has said no.
He has £250 in bank charges this month alone.
I'm so fucking angry with the lying. He promised he would be open about money and tell me if he was struggling.
It is pride that stops him. That and the awareness he runs his business badly despite repeated offers of help from various business friends.
We need him to be flexible as my job does not allow me any flexibility so him becoming employed would be difficult.
I'm fed up with him basically working for free, lying about his money situation and me working even harder to bail him out.
I've looked at his accounts, no excessive spending, secret gambling/family. Just not enough coming in.
I love him but I deserve not to be repeatedly going through this sickening situation of finding out he is in debt again when it could have been avoided. Constantly worrying.
Do I give it all up?
Do I treat him like a child, check his accounts, give him pocket money, run his business (pretty difficult with my hours) as he is NEVER going to change.
We really can't afford to live on just my income and his profession is in demand and has potential to earn good money.
I'm in bits, can't think clearly.
I told him of he lied again that was the end. I don't know if I'm strong enough to follow through, he's an amazing dad and amazing round the house.
Do we switch roles and make it work him being a sahd and cut down our outgoings and just accept he is crap with money?
I appreciate any help, thanks.

He has a business loan of £750 a month that I can't afford to take on , having already paid it off once so I don't think it's feasible for him to stop working.
I think essentially I'm asking to I take control once and for all and sort his business/money or give up and let it not be my problem anymore?

I see that you have a few options
1- he becomes a SAHD
2 - he gives up the business and gets a paid job with regular pay and hours and you pay for childcare if necessary
3 - you leave him to flail around and mismanage his business on his own.

I'd want to try 1 and 2 first. I had similar with XH and we tried 1 (he was terrible at it and hated it) 2 (he was terrible at it and hated it) and eventually went for 3. Although to be fair to him he changed his business and started making a living wage in the end. Is that an option? Diversify?

Could he wind up his business and work directly for someone else, even part time, if it meant a reliable, regular wage?

If you've threatened him with ending the relationship because of his lies/lack of disclosure and don't follow through, you're going to have this same thing recurring until you retire. He screws up, you bail him out. Rinse and repeat.

He might be good at what he does but doesn't seem mentally competent to run his own business. Not everyone is. But if he really, REALLY feels that he needs to change or it's over, maybe he might find a different way to continue working but not as a company owner/self-employed but as a contractor where someone else negotiates his hourly/day rates and chases payment.

Would you care to disclose (in vague terms) what it is he does for a "living"?

£750 a month? how can his business possibly be profitable if £750 a month is going on repaying what? Start up costs? Stock? I can't imagine how and why he could have got to a point of borrowing that much to prop up his business. Unless it has turnover of £1000s a month that's crazy.

Why couldn't you just live off your income? If you have a big mortgage maybe have to downsize? I know where you're coming from as my DP earns plenty of money, but it seems to evaporate into thin air, and he always has a credit card in the red (once up to £7000). When our kids were little and he was a stay at home Dad for around 2 years, we were actually better off financially on my smaller wage, because I knew where all the money was going.

Your situation sounds incredibly frustrating, but some men are so proud, they can't admit to debts etc. Is there anyway he would consider just having one joint account, so that you could see where all the money was going?

Completley outing myself but He's a plumber. The £750 a month is his £8k business overdraft that the bank have recalled. I paid most of it off last year and he used it again to pay his merchants.
He's very good at his job but not at charging/running the business.

Have you considered paying for childcare?

Also take control of the finances. Explain his approach isn't working and you want a shot at it yourself.

I think you love him and don't want to leave him but let him know that his lack of control makes you want to walk.

He needs to take control of his career because it is impacting upon his family. If he has pride he will realise that and sort it out.

What about if he gets a job as a plumber rather than being self employed. You can get fairly good rates.

What about putting an ad in the local paper offering to fit a bathroom for x amount of money for a limited time only. I bet the offers will come rolling in.

Can you come up with costs together? Is the merchant he uses the cheapest one?

This kept happening to me but he has decided to leave me and our daughter as he always lets us down one way or another (his words) :-( xx

I think you need to follow through on your threat.
Otherwise this will keep happening.
Just a trial separation to see if he can sort himself out.
When/if you try again then you insist on taking over all control of all monies.

Loneymummy I'm so sorry to hear that. My husband has similar in the past.

I don't think kicking him out is going to improve either of your lives. He sounds a decent feller in lots of ways. He does need to get a grip of these issues though.

Hi Caravan. I have every empathy for your situation - I left my ex partner for similar reasons (no suggestion you should by the way). In my case; I could not tolerate him lying about the amount of debt he was in and the lack of work he found. He was just not motivated enough/have the bottle to deal with negotiation or conflict. He would not chase up money if it mean dealing with refusers or re-market himself when demand was less. In the meantime; he was obviously hiding something and not able to contribute at home to various costs. Luckily; like you I was in a nicely-paid job at the time and this kept our needs met. We always kept our accounts separate and I never bailed him out. I did go leaflet-dropping often to bring in new work and offered to go through accounts/debt management plans but the latter was refused - stubborn and proud. He was making some really bad choices as far a getting loans to cover loans etc with astronomical interest rates. In the end; I could not live with the huge debts he had secret or that he would prepared to take the whole family down with them. There were other problems in the relationship too - but his relationship to money was symptomatic of his ability to deal with problems in general. Hope you can find you way through this soon. xx

Thanks for the responses. It seems there are a few of you who have been thought similar, it really helps to hear how you handled things. I'm so bloody angry with him tonight for lying. All of our neighbours are in their gardens drinking and having fun and I feel bloody miserable. Again.

Girl in a swirl, do you mind me asking if you were happy with your decision to end the relationship?

I've looked at his accounts, no excessive spending, secret gambling/family. Just not enough coming in.

Is he pocketing cash ?

Are you sure he is actually working at least full time hours? Or at least working fast enough?

I think he needs to get a job, with a paid salary. If he is using your money to prop him up, he needs to realise being self employed for him is little more than a vanity project and worse than a hobby.

Effectively you are already living off your salary alone as well as servicing his debt so how can you be worse off he he stops a job that costs more than it brings in?

If it is a properly set up business debt what is the problem to you and you family if he defaults on it?

I couldn't live with a man like this risking my home is a major line for me.

Could you try and get him a bookkeeper part time? They could chase all his money owed and he would just have to do the plumbing jobs...

I am not 100% sure that is how bookkeepers work but maybe you could find one who does all of that? It he is so lovely in every other aspect of your relationship is it worth a shot?

Although, having said that the deceit would be very upsetting for me, my DH once lied to me about importing something that he collects and I was so upset and felt really betrayed by it.

Yes I was happy with the decision Caravan. It was a difficult decision because we had know each other since we were 5, had been together for 14 years and had a shared DS. We had been through all sorts of problems and always pulled together to solve them.

I am not sure if he just became more and more secretive/if I just became more aware of his little antics.We were growing apart. In the end; we were not communicating more than communicating. He was evading almost every question I had - even 'how was your day?'. He did not want to deal with personal issues (the money being a major one) and I couldn't tolerate the 'wall of silence' coming down every time I mentioned that we needed to work on things together. I saw his money issues as symptom of a larger deficit in dealing with everyday conflict. I could not carry the relationship on my own - I was just tired and felt emotionally abused.

It may seem quite harsh to say - but I think I actually lost a bit of respect for him as a man in the end ; because I was dealing with all the everyday foibles a family experience. He was making irresponsible choices because he could not put his pride to one side.

A close friend had this situation in a very similar trade.

Her husband just liked driving around in his lovely new van, shagged the odd client and was then unable to collect payment from them and generally it was a vanity project.

He eventually left and it will take her years to pay off their his debt.

I have empathy, Carvan. My DP isn't the best at budgeting, but two years ago he was absolutely awful. I was a SAHM (pregnant and two DC at home) and he worked FT. Granted, the job wasn't paid brilliantly, but we'd done all our sums 100 times over and worked out that we could afford to live.

He was SO shit with money though. He'd lend money to friends then never see it again. He'd come home with armfuls of presents for us all then not have enough for the rent. He would forget to pay the council tax (literally forget. I'd ask if he'd done it and his face would drop as he realised what date it was ).

But it was the lying/secrets that was the worst. Too proud to admit maybe we couldn't afford our lovely house. Too proud to admit that maybe his job was just shit. Before meeting him I'd never paid my rent late, so it was frightening and mortifying every time he did.

In the end he changed jobs, I used some money I had in an account that I'm not supposed to touch (long story!) to pay the backlog of rent and insisted he pay me back as soon as he got his first pay cheque. He did. I also kept his debit card on me for a bit but that didnt last long. He dared to call me "controlling" and I remember saying "I'm not controlling, I'm just trying to stop us losing our home!" I made him send me the rent money every month and I would go to the estate agents in person and pay it on the day it was due.

Should I have left him? Maybe. Although he is much better now, there are STILL issues. Eg when he told me things were great because he had a few hundred in his bank, he failed to mention that he'd actually been approved for an overdraft and that was the bank's money.

Only you can decide how much of this you can put up with but I know I couldn't pay for someone else's loans and debts while they refused to collect their wages properly. Xx

One man band plumber shouldn't need to hold that much stock, plumbing supplies relatively cheap (labour is main cost in plumbing jobs) and should usually get paid reasonably quickly so won't run up huge supplier bills. That suggestion someone made to do bathrooms is good...he can get his clients to buy their own fittings and just charge labour, until his cash-flow improves. Tbh I suspect there's something else going on. Gambling or expensive addiction/hobby?