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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Hubby needs help - what can I do that is more?

32 replies

goneForSausage · 20/06/2014 07:05

I posted this yesterday to AIBU and people suggested this forum may be more constructive, so here we go again and sorry to those who have already read this. I suppose, my concern has gone beyond a certain something and this is written as a consequence of stepping back and being more of an observer and less of a direct participant:

For those who say LEAVE HER!, please do not post, it is not the advice I need at this point here goes;-

I am 46 and my wife is 34. We were married around 5 years ago when she became pregnant. There was a gun-shot wedding and since we have had a little boy who is 2 to add to our daughter is nearly 5. The previous 2 years were quite wonderful, I want to say that I love my wife and I adore our 2 children more than life itself. Most of the time, she is warm, caring, fun and funny, a pleasure to be around at other times she is horrible. It seems she can be nice one minute and quite mean the next, several times in the same day.

There were fights and arguments before, but hey, I thought that was normal, but for the last 4 years it seems like its a whole new ball of wax. These are the characteristics that began not long after the arrival of our first-born;-

Our relationship has been dominated by her frequent rages, including hitting (occasional and rarely injurious) and containing extreme verbal or emotional abuse which has been far more painful to bear. It mirrors the behaviour of a child-like temper-tantrum. She takes 2 to 3 days to calm down from one of these and when I try to talk to her about it she usually refuses or will conveniently deflect all blame upon me for making her angry.

She is super-sensitive to the smallest criticism and unintentional slight. If you joke with what might be termed poking fun, she takes it as a personal attack. Her method of fighting back is quite nasty and immature. She never apologises for anything, if she does it is brief and matter-of-fact. Sometimes I think she is only says this out of obligation rather than sincerity.

She lies about things and sometimes appears to be unaware of the fact she is lying at all. Im not sure whether this is a deliberate selective amnesia or whether she genuinely does not know. She accuses me of gaslighting which I believe is a projection and sometimes she tries to rewrite history. I have caught her out several times with this and she then accuses me of making things up or she simply disengages, in both cases it is usually accompanied by a huge outburst of anger. For instance, friends have informed me of her reckless driving. As the mother of my children, I am very concerned about this aspect of her thrill-seeking behaviour. She likes to binge drink and comes home very late at times, she always tells me she is sober and then spends the next day recovering from a hangover. I have stopped asking her what she did and who she was with for fear of another bout of absurd rage

[in the other post I included my suspicion of cheating, however, I have no proof of this and let that be that. At present, Im more concerned about the bigger picture. The same applies to the physical violence, it seems to be only part of a much more disturbing whole]

She seeks revenge about perceived things I have done or things that she perceives I have done and generally seems to have a warped reality. At times it feels like she wants me to hate her as the vengeance is out of all proportion compared to the alleged crime. Often the only times I can really know what she is feeling is through her projections, for instance, she has accused me of behaving like a child, sometimes she calls me a little girl (!) when she rages and I try to defend myself. When she says she hates me, I feel quite strongly that she is projecting her own shame or guilt for the way she behaves.

She is controlling and engages in passive-aggressive behaviour all of the time (something else she accuses me of, that and mind-games) I believe that is focused on maintaining control, to the extent of rejecting acts of love and kindness which appear to be cast aside from a feeling of her entitlement, despite her behaviour. She seems to treat these attempts to draw her away from a hate cycle as an attempt at manipulation and has accused me of this directly. If I try to state my case she continually interrupts my thoughts, the object appears to create confusion with regard to my own point of view and to disregard it or to make me out to be the root cause of all the difficulties we have. It comes across as terribly self-centred, in fact the whole thing is very selfish indeed.

I have tried so many times to talk with her about our marital difficulties and she just fires back anger, hate, and above all blame, she uses the most convenient excuse to avoid the topic and can only see things through a negative lens that obliterates all of the good times we have had. When she does raise the issue, it seems she does so with a series of accusations and if only I did this, if only I were like this. All the time my voice is lost in a messy grey fog and nothing is ever fully fixed.

If her friends were to read this, they would probably be in disbelief and could possibly accuse me of being the one who is nasty and corrupted by hate. Around 8/9 months ago we moved to the country so that she could be nearer her old school friends and one of her best friends in particular, who has 2 children of similar age, so I also feel I have sacrificed, again, to appease her. (I also feel far from my own support network of friends and people I can rely upon) This seems to work for a while, but the old patterns and cycles of behaviour have kicked and the floors of our new abode seem to be covered in delicate glass.

I feel like Im going insane, am I the only one who sees the real person behind the mask, who cuts a miserable, lonely figure seething in hate? Does everyone else, other than me only see a fun-filled, jolly and caring lady? I am convinced that others only see nice wife which is the same wife I long for, to be with me and our lovely children all of the time because she can be utterly adorable at times. Above all, I am scared for our 2 children who I fear may be damaged in some way already and I want to know how I can best help her. I am at a bit of a loss with all of this, help me to help her and our kids please.

In saying all of this, I recognise my own behaviour as a contributing factor, I have also said regrettable things and behaved quite dreadfully out of frustration, injustice and anger. I have blanked her out, dismissed her ridiculous and wild raging fantasies by telling her EXACTLY what I thought of her episodic terrorism in very plain, if not harshly accurate terms. Some of our fights have been monstrous and of course, one person cannot have an argument. What I do know is that there is a cavern of inequality in our relationship and I am clear when I state that whatever I have said and done is utterly dwarfed by the pain and hurt she has inflicted upon me.

At times I do not understand why, but I do still love her in spite of her attempts to systematically drain all love energy and hope from the core of my being. What I also feel is that all this surely is a syndrome or a condition and therefore must have a name the name would help, people have suggested: bipolar/BPD/post-traumatic stress disorder. If I knew what it was, I think I might be able to handle our home life better.

OP posts:
goneForSausage · 20/06/2014 07:06

(sorry for the symbols, it was posted form Word and worked and reworked a few times)

OP posts:
Lovingfreedom · 20/06/2014 07:12

Time to call it a day. Terrible relationship and you will both be happier apart.

financialwizard · 20/06/2014 07:14

I really wouldn't know where to start if I were you. Maybe GP?

I wish you well. I have an ex husband like that and I had to leave, I couldn't carry on. So I wish you all the strength you need.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 20/06/2014 07:23

Why do you state that you are not willing to leave her?. Out of some innate fear of "you losing the children", a sense of failure that you could not rescue and or save her from her demons?. What is really keeping you within this now?.

What is your definition of love; your overall relationship reads more like a really unhealthy co-dependency than love. Also your children are also copping all the backwash of this even if they are not in the same room when she kicks off at you. They hear it all and see your and her reactions. Your wife for her own reasons is conducting her own private war against you. Her behaviours are abusive and yes abusers can be nice sometimes and abusers can also be very plausible to those in the outside world.

Is this really also what you want to teach your children about relationships; that there is always an undercurrent of violence within it. Staying will do you and these children no favours whatsoever; they will just simply learn how to pick abusive partners themselves as adults or even act abusively themselves within a relationship.

I was wondering if you have any idea about what sort of childhood she had because that is likely going to have some real bearing here on what is happening now. If she saw ongoing violence at home betweenb mum and dad the chances are she will just carry that all forward into her own adult relationships.

You and by turn your children are being abused by her. If you cannot or will not protect your children who will?. Social Services can and will get involved in your lives particularly if your eldest starts talking at school about life at home.

Mankind can and will help you here but you need to be brave and make that call to them yourself.

Back2Two · 20/06/2014 07:28

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This post has been withdrawn due to privacy concerns

Lovingfreedom · 20/06/2014 07:31

There's something about this OP that doesn't sit well. He 'pokes fun' at his wife and expects her to find it funny. He's swallowed the book on emotional abuse and despite protestations of being 'the victim' comes across rather aggressively. I wonder if he is the gas-lighter, projector etc. Whatever...there is no other advice other than end this relationship.

goneForSausage · 20/06/2014 08:20

Leaving is not an option: where else will my children gain the stability of emotional support?

How could I possibly gain custody?

I have tried my best to lower the 'temperature' in the home and it worked far better - Lovingfreedom, I asked for advice - not your judgment, thank you.

OP posts:
Lovingfreedom · 20/06/2014 08:30

Leaving is an option. You will probably get joint access and you can arrange a co-parenting arrangement where you each have the children for set times or days etc. I do 50:50 with my ex. Sorry to sound judgmental. Your relationship sounds awful on all sides tbh.

goneForSausage · 20/06/2014 08:36

Only one person is abusive tbh and it is the emotional abuse that is the most punishing. I do not see how 50:50 will help with its additional financial strains and where would the bed in their homes be? Males are not well-favoured in these things and the very last thing the children need is an ugly divorce with a divided parental outcome - read what I stated about her nature, do you think it would be amicable?

I have stopped fighting and things have become more bearable of late "as a consequence of stepping back and being more of an observer and less of a direct participant"

  • in order to do this better I want to do more and to help my wife get better, that is the essence of what I ask.
OP posts:
Lovingfreedom · 20/06/2014 08:39

Ok. You know what to do then. Good luck with it.

Back2Two · 20/06/2014 08:42

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Back2Two · 20/06/2014 08:44

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Quitelikely · 20/06/2014 08:50

How was her early life? Was it terrible? She definitely needs help in the form of professionals!

Or maybe you both need relationship counselling.

Is this her periods? Could it be pmt? Does she admit that something is wrong?

I know you love her but you might need to remove yourself from her so that she cannot behave this way towards anyone.

Yes your poor children are in the thick if this. This is their relationship model. This is all they know and this is what they will base things on.

If nothing changes then nothing changes. Please do something.

HumptyDumptyBumpty · 20/06/2014 09:09

I agree with loving - something doesn't sit right.

You had a 'shotgun wedding' when your wife was pregnant - so you didn't want to marry her, but were/felt compelled to because of the pregnancy?

She reacts badly to what you think is minor criticism and 'poking fun'; well perhaps you are heavy handed, and hurt her more than you intend. Or perhaps you do it incessantly. Critical people rarely realise what they're doing. Maybe her sensitivity has increased over the years of you 'poking fun' at her?

She 'never apologises' but then she does (Confused), but in a way you consider too 'brief and matter of fact'. Does she say the word 'sorry'? Well, then, that's an apology. Expecting it to be phrased in the way you might word it is at best a vain hope, and at worst controlling.

There's something about the way you write, and I can't put my finger on it exactly, which smacks of domination/control. It's a parental tone about a woman who is your equal, peer, and partner, not your child, I think.

Sorry to be blunt, I'm aware this may be hurtful to read, especially if I'm misinterpreting, but you asked for advice, and mine would be to look to your own behaviour towards her, as honestly as possible. Could you write down your 'poking fun/minor criticisms' for a few days, then read them back to yourself in a quiet moment?

It sounds as if she is terribly unhappy and hurt, and is lashing out. Then feeling guilty and being nice to 'make up for it'. Then feeling deeply, corrosively angry that she 'has to be' nice when inside she is hurt. It's a horrible cycle, and hard to break.

I write as someone who was brought up in a PA environment, and who is still fighting with herself not to fall into those patterns of behaviour at the first sign of a fight. It's hard, and requires bruising honesty. I also have a very controlling parent, and recognise traits of that in myself, so this is what jumps out for me. It may be that those are my issues, but it may be helpful to you, I have no idea.

None of her bad behaviour is acceptable, of course, but she's not here asking for advice!

Oh, and incidentally, it's very admirable (if I can say that without sounding patronising!) that you are looking to heal this hurt between you. I wish you luck.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 20/06/2014 09:17

Re your comments:-

"Leaving is not an option: where else will my children gain the stability of emotional support?

How could I possibly gain custody?"

Stop deluding yourself that leaving is not an option here. Your children would gain the stability of emotional support from living in a home where there is no threat of violence on an increasing level of frequency within it.

You need to seek legal advice and stop assuming that it will all go in her favour. Again, Mankind can advise you on this situation but you need to call them.

There was an article on this subject in yesterdays Metro and some of the counsel given to the man (who like yourself is being abused here) was as follows:-

"Abuse is not the fault of the person experiencing it. This is not about your character or masculinity but about her violent and controlling behaviour. Bullies work by making you feel so bad about yourself that you convince yourself that no-one else will have you, so you stay and, as your self esteem plummets. their control over you increases".

They also advised the man to leave his violent girlfriend asap and to seek help for his own self so that he can realise that its not his fault.

The only acceptable level of abuse within a relationship is NONE. Yes, that is correct, NONE.

goneForSausage · 20/06/2014 09:20

HumptyDumptyBumpty "look to your own behaviour"

I have and I have apologised, she has not, I honestly don't get it.

WHAT IS THIS? If I knew then I could handle it better for the love of my children and my wish to help her. And thank you, I am neither controlling nor the aggressor.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 20/06/2014 09:24

" Males are not well-favoured in these things and the very last thing the children need is an ugly divorce with a divided parental outcome - read what I stated about her nature, do you think it would be amicable?"

No, the very last thing these children need (and I daresay you both love these children) is to be living in a household akin to a warzone. How do you think these young children are going to be as adults when they go out into the world and establish their own relationships?. They will not emerge from all this at home totally unscathed and they will not thank you for staying with her. They will call you daft for doing so and could well ask you why you put your wife before them.

I think she would make it as difficult as possible for you to leave and such people do not let go of their victims easily. This does not give you licence though to sit and keep taking it all from her. Access arrangements could be laid out on a formal basis.

Why do you think its your job to get her "better"?. You are clearly not qualified to do that and in any case you are too close to the situation to be of any real use. Not that she wants your help anyway; infact your actions by staying are prolonging the agonies for both you and your children.

This is not a loving relationship and never has been; this is more like a unhealthy co-dependency.

lettertoherms · 20/06/2014 09:36

There's something about the way you write, and I can't put my finger on it exactly, which smacks of domination/control. It's a parental tone about a woman who is your equal, peer, and partner, not your child, I think.

^^I read both threads, have hesitated to comment because of this, and you've managed to put my thoughts into words.

I don't know what to say, OP. My advice would typically be LTB, she's abusive and violent and you need to get out. But I do get a sick feeling from reading this, and it isn't just your wife's behavior: a lot of your language is what I've experienced from abusers, about their victim.

No matter what, I think this relationship needs to end. There are three sides to every story, but this is clearly an unhealthy relationship, and a bad environment for the children. For their sakes', this needs to end.

kaykayblue · 20/06/2014 09:55

You come on and describe an absolutely atrocious relationship but say that ending the relationship is "not an option".

Look, you say that you have spoken to your wife about this, and she refuses to listen, or accept her behaviour. If she refuses to accept her behaviour, or to acknowledge that she is behaving badly then there is literally nothing you can do for her. Your partner has to WANT to change - you can't force her to.

And if she doesn't want to change, then she won't. She could go to the doctors and speak to them about her temper, but you cannot force her to, and if she won't go on her own accord, then there is nothing you can do. It doesn't matter whether it's the husband or the wife behaving badly - their spouse can change nothing. It has to be them who wants to change.

You only have three options:

  1. The first is to try and get her to understand that you don't like her behaviour and why. You say you have already done that, and you can't just do that over and over if it's not bringing any results. It's pointless.

  2. You can stay, and accept the fact that you will feel this way for the rest of your life, and that your children will grow up in a household which teaches them that this is what a normal marriage is. That you don't have to love or respect your spouse. That screaming arguments are okay and normal. That this is how you treat people in a marriage. But at least mummy and daddy will still be married and living together.

  3. You can leave, and establish a household in which you provide a calm and loving environment for your children. You can keep them out of arguments between you and your wife (and it's not like you aren't having them now anyway). You can teach them what self respect is, and boundaries of unacceptable behaviour. But yes, their parents will get divorced. But considering 1 in every 2 marriages fail, they aren't going to be alone in that. PLENTY of children's parents divorce and it's no big deal.

You cannot force your wife to change. All you can do is control your reaction to her behaviour.

To be honest, it sounds like you guys just fucking hate each other. You might find that you are both much much happier separated, and that both your lives take an upward turn.

HumptyDumptyBumpty · 20/06/2014 10:29

Sausage I really don't mean to sound flip, but perhaps your apology was brief and matter of fact. Perhaps she felt similarly dissatisfied with it, as you claim to with her apologies?

You sound very certain that you're happy with your own behaviours. Have you had some individual counselling to talk this through with a neutral party? It might help you gain perspective on the situation if you are correct and this is all down to your wife and her behaviour. You can't change her, you can only change you.

Lovingfreedom · 20/06/2014 10:32

OP's tone in the post at 08.36 is illuminating. I agree with Lettertoherns.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 20/06/2014 10:34

Bollocks to most of the posters above. There is nothing in this post that suggests he is the abuser in actuality. If a woman had posted this nobody would be suggesting that she was in fact abusive.

OP, you need to get legal advice from a good, family law specialist solicitor. You cannot continue to raise your kids in this toxic environment.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 20/06/2014 10:37

I have stopped fighting and things have become more bearable of late "as a consequence of stepping back and being more of an observer and less of a direct participant

I did exactly this with my H and it stopped arguments 100%. Not saying it's a healthy solution (basically it means I detach from his moods and tantrums and do not engage with it. I leave him to play it out and emotionally detach so I don't find it hurtful or stressful). It's no way to interact as a couple but it's hardly an abusive move.

hellsbellsmelons · 20/06/2014 10:41

No-one on here would advise anyone to remain in an abusive relationship be you man or woman.
The only acceptable amount of abuse in a relationship is NONE!

You know you need to leave or get her to leave for all of your sakes.
It sounds like an awful and unhappy home.
You are teaching your children about their future relationships here and it's not a good example to be setting them.

Do you want them to have this relationship when they grow up?
Because that's where it's going!

ghostisonthecanvas · 20/06/2014 10:51

You could be my son Sad He isn't ready to leave, his father abandoned him and he doesn't want his kids to be without him. He is also aware that his wife will gaslight the kids. I will tell you bluntly what I cannot tell him. Leave. If you can, get at least 80% custody. You will not 'fix' your wife. Her behaviour is abusive. The children will be suffering. Have you told her not to hit you? Have you told her physical violence is unacceptable? Have you faced her down about her lying? Does she feel guilty at all about hitting you? If you really want to save the relationship, you both need counselling. If she doesn't want to go for counselling, leave. I am sorry you are going through this.

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