Not sure what to do about my relationship with my mother when baby arrives

[KaterMurr]

Hi everyone

This is a long and complicated issue, and one I've spent a lot of time thinking about. I'm pregnant and due in September, and thankfully I live quite far away (200+ miles) away from my mum, who I visit once a year or so and speak to on the phone.

She's definitely got some kind of issues - my childhood was far from great; she's an alcoholic, can be quite violent (though is obviously now a 57 year old woman and so is not that strong - she's still got a decent slap in her), has a severely narcissistic personality (which simply further compounds all of the issues because she would never consider herself to be in the wrong) and other things besides.

I've dealt with things so far despite a lot of people telling me I should cut contact with her when, every now and again, she has a funny turn, decides I'm a horrible spoilt brat and dedicates and evening to sending me awful messages online. However.

With my first child on the horizon, obviously I need to think more carefully about our relationship. I would obviously never, ever trust her alone with the baby/child, but managing her contact with him is going to be tricky too.

(Family information: My dad lives separately but near to her; they divorced when I was four and do not talk at all. I also have a brother, who she favours - she has issues with sex and gender and tends to favour men and boys while resenting and despising other females.)

I don't really want to cut all contact with her; I would find this very hard despite the fact that I also know I am never going to have a very happy relationship with her. My brother would also not understand - he sees her through his rose-tinted spectacles and doesn't get that the way she treats me is, and always has been, very different to the way she treats him.

My initial plan was to try slowly introducing her to the baby on common ground - public places, always during the day, where we can leave ASAP if something went south. This kind of works for the time being, because she obviously couldn't do anything violent (and wouldn't, I don't think) in public, but there are problems:

1. She will not be OK with this. Not that she has any power, but it will further strain the relationship a lot. She hates my dad, and already has issues if I even so much as see him - so for example when baby arrives and I stay with him when I visit (which I will, for baby's sake) she will be very offended and angry at me. Letting him see the baby more and spend time with it by himself but not letting her do this will illicit a lot of anger and resentment from her, and she will absolutely not understand why I'm doing it. From her perspective, she was a hard-working mother who raised sacrificed her freedom to raise us and my father deserves nothing at all from me.

1. When the baby is older and language/communication starts being an issue, my being 'around' is, I worry, not enough. There are things she said to me when I was a kid which were pretty traumatising, and it takes just a few seconds for her to say something like that in front of my kid and by the time I can do something about it it will be too late.

(Eg: She told me when I was around 6 and had just discovered what sex was that when I was older and married a man, he would force me to have sex with him all the time, no matter how disgusting it was, and that by law I had to have sex with him whenever he wanted to. And that, of course, this is what my father did to her.)

We've also already simply had big arguments over child-rearing on the phone, where she does not understand that there is a line she is crossing and that my child is mine to raise; it was over something as silly as the fact that I insisted I would be calling a penis a penis at bathtime etc. - don't ask how this topic came up, it's the kind of thing she brings up - and she turned this into a huge argument and said things like 'you'll make them think it's something sordid and dirty', 'children have to have nice words for things like that' and 'if you rob that child of its childhood I will not have anything to do with you!' (Obviously, this is all down to issues she has with sex and intimacy. She has always used sex as a weapon and has no interest in it herself.)

There are lots of other things I could say about her to clarify why I wouldn't leave her alone with the baby - she was violent with me when I was a child; she was emotionally manipulative - telling my brother and I she was going to kill herself because of us when we were 6 and 4 respectively, until we cried for hours and begged her not to and told her we would be good and do whatever she wanted - etc.

But I suppose the issue is just - is there a way to manage this relationship, either by allowing her limited contact with the baby or only with me, without causing endless stress and arguments?

The other thing, of course, is that sooner or later if I stayed in contact with her but disallowed contact with the baby, the baby will grow into a toddler and find out that I speak to my mother, and start wondering why he hasn't met her but has met all of his other grandparents.

Also, I'm keen to keep my relationship with my brother as good as possible. This also has a slightly rocky history but has been a little better lately, and I don't want my kids to miss out on their uncle. As I say, he would definitely hold it against me if I cut my mother out.

Any ideas?

It sounds like she's had an unhappy life. And if you're over about 28 then she was right about having to let your husband have sex with you - IIRC the law only changed in the early 1990s - and even if you're younger but she was married before that then it was true for her for a time.

But none of that excuses bad behaviour towards you or your child.

I think your "neutral ground" plan is a good one. If you do walk away on any occasion you need to tell her why: partly so you're setting boundaries she hears, but also so your DC hear you setting those boundaries. She does not have any legal right to contact with her DGC, full stop. The child has a right to a relationship with its relations if and only if that relationship is going to be beneficial.

It's possible that she will step up and be a loving grandparent even though she wasn't a good parent. Her issues about gender may lead her to treat DS like a prince, with lots of praise and attention. So long as she doesn't do so by denigrating you or other women, that's fine.

Good luck with the rest of your pregnancy. You'll be glad of the geographical distance, I'm sure. You might consider counselling (your mw would be able to point you in the right direction) if you aren't sure how to be a good parent, not having had a good example when you were young.

'It's possible that she will step up and be a loving grandparent even though she wasn't a good parent.'

The problem is that these issues are not really simply to do with her making mistakes in the past; she is just not really a very nice person, full stop. She has many run-ins (generally with other women), and when you say that praising a boy - as long as it doesn't denigrate women - is fine; this won't really happen.

Despite her preference towards males, she's still got her issues with them. She told my brother when he was a similar age and had just found out what masturbating was (and obviously found it disgusting) that he would grow up to 'be a wanker' and as much as he protested he would never do something like that, she told him he would do it because 'all men do'. This was an attempt to normalise it; she was very much being cruel.

And, re. my dad - I'm 24, and I'm pretty sure he never forced himself on her. Ever.

Sorry, I meant this was not an attempt to normalise it.

I'm sorry but I am going to take a completely different view. This woman screwed up much of your childhood and now you are going to inflict this on your own child? Don't get me wrong - I know where you are coming from, my mother is a junkie and I was removed from her care at about 4 months old and I refuse to let her anywhere near my children.

I regret trying to rekindle some sort of relationship with her and I realise how much danger I put my family in by believing she could change. You already stated that she prefers men and some kind of spiteful towards woman, well what if your child is a girl? (sorry but you didn't say so I'm assuming you haven't found out).

I just really don't think this is a good idea. If she ruined your childhood to the extent you are posting in here then I think it is relatively safe to assume she is going to impact negatively on your child's life too.

The baby is a boy, though obviously if we have a second then there may also be girls.

I'm obviously not going to do anything that will impact him/them negatively, but I feel like there should be a way that I can at least try to strike a compromise and see. I'm just not sure how.

"But I suppose the issue is just - is there a way to manage this relationship, either by allowing her limited contact with the baby or only with me, without causing endless stress and arguments?"

No, none whatsoever and you're already seeing her trying to push boundaries mainly because she has none herself. Your mother is both an alcoholic and narcissist along with being previously physically violent on occasion; it is not possible to have any sort of relationship with such a disordered person. It is NOT your fault she is this way; you did not make her the way she now is (her own birth family did that to her).

Narcissists as well often do the divide and conquer strategy with their children; it is of no surprise to me at all that your brother has and will choose to side with his mother. It is not worth having any sort of relationship with him either because he has remained in her favour throughout and he will always side with her. His role of golden child is one actually not without price but he is not aware enough to realise that.

Re a comment that Fatalcabbage wrote

"It's possible that she will step up and be a loving grandparent even though she wasn't a good parent".

Basically no, no and no again. With your mother's myriad of baggage its not ever going to happen.

The following also completely blows that ideal out of the water:-

Some parents really should not be allowed any access to their grandchildren and your mother is really a case in point. Consider the following as well:-

A percentage of the general population is dysfunctional and/or abusive. That percentage, like everyone else, has children. Then those children grow and have children of their own. The not-so-loving grandparents expect to have a relationship with their grandchildren. The only problem is, they’re not good grandparents.

Many adult children of toxic parents feel torn between their parents’ (and society’s) expectation that grandparents will have access to their grandkids, and their own unfortunate first hand knowledge that their parents are emotionally/physically/sexually abusive, or just plain too difficult to have any kind of healthy relationship with.

The children’s parents may allow the grandparents to begin a relationship with their children, hoping that things will be different this time, that their parents have really changed, and that their children will be emotionally and physically safer than they themselves were.

Unfortunately, this is rarely the case, because most abusive people have mental disorders of one kind or another, and many of these disorders are lifelong and not highly treatable. (Others are lifelong and treatable; however, many people never seek the necessary help.)

The well-intentioned parent ends up feeling mortified for having done more harm than good by hoping things would somehow be different — instead of having a child who simply never knew their grandparents and who was never mistreated, they have an abused child who is now also being torn apart by the grief involved in having to sever a lifelong relationship with the unhealthy people they are very attached to.

If your parents were not good parents and you are considering whether or not to allow a relationship with your children, consider the following factors, as well as others, before deciding:
•Have they fully addressed their issues in SKILLED long-term therapy? (A few weeks or months is nowhere near adequate if your parents regularly mistreated you).
.
•Have they been treated for all the root causes of their dysfunction or abuse?
.
•Have they sincerely apologized and made amends for the hurtful things they did? Not just said, “I’m sorry”, but really talked it all through with you over many hours’ time?
.
•Are they very different people to you from the ones you remember?
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•Do you currently have a healthy, functional and stable relationship with them?
.
•Do they respect your choices and boundaries as a parent? Do they follow your requests about how you want your children to be treated and to behave?
.
•Would you recommend your parents to your best friend as babysitters without any hesitation or worry, and feel comfortable giving your word that they’d never harm your friend’s child, without any doubt?
.
•Have you worked through all of your feelings about the mistreatment you experienced through your parents?

These are just a few of the important questions to answer. The best plan is to work through the matter with a therapist of your own, who has no bias toward trying to “keep families together” despite the presence of mistreatment.

It is important to keep in mind that if they are too toxic for you, they are FAR too toxic for your vulnerable and defenseless children.

I know its hard and it impacts more people than just yourself but I would be cautious of her. She has already proven she is going to be a nightmare GP by arguing with you over your approach to parenting.

Just be careful and guarded is all I'm saying. You are an adult, you know she has form for this and you are bug enough to tell her to F off and see through nasty things she says, your son will be a child and could end up damaged by it.

Despite the fact that you are this woman's daughter, I can see no positive slant if what you get from this relationship.

Personally, I'd go NC from this body of poisonous attitudes and screw what my brother thought. Your relationship with your mother is none of his concern ... unless he's worried that she'll start on him if she doesn't have you to badger.

Also, your relationship with your dad is none if your mum's business, and her attitude towards it is another reason I wouldn't see or speak to her.

I'm sorry if this is not what you want to hear but a toxic relationship is NOT better than no relationship, even when thinking of a grandchild and grandparent.

KaterMurr,

I also meant to write congratulations to you on your pregnancy in my first message.

Re your comment:-
"but I feel like there should be a way that I can at least try to strike a compromise and see".

You are very much someone who is wrapped up still in what is known as FOG - fear, obligation, guilt.

Your mother will never allow you to do that because she will not ever accept any compromise.

You're going to have to let go of the dream that she will one day wake up and actually mean sorry. It will not happen, she will continue to denigrate you and by turn your child. Do not whatever you do inflict your mother at all upon your as yet unborn child. What would she bring to this relationship anyway other than a whole lot of bile and abuse aimed at you via him?. You're already seeing bad behaviour from her and she has no concept at all of boundaries or empathy. You will wonder why on earth you actually allowed her to have any sort of relationship with him at all otherwise, do not make that mistake.

Fortunately you have physical distance from your mother; your child needs positive, emotionally healthy and happy role models in his life and not people like your mother who will bitch, snipe about you and moan at every single opportunity that arises.

Narcissistic women cannot maintain relationships at all so was not surprised to see that your Dad left. A man who stands up to his wife will not be tolerated for long, or will not find his life tolerable for long, and will either leave (that's precisely what your Dad did) or be kicked out. Narcissists simply don't have healthy and functioning relationships, and so there is either no relationship, or a dysfunctional and enabling one.

OK.

Let's say I don't let her have any contact with my children.

Is there a way I can still maintain contact with her from a distance? Is there a way I can try to explain this to my brother to avoid conflict over it with him?

Hi KaterMurr,

Re your comments that I have split into two"
"OK. Let's say I don't let her have any contact with my children".

That would be a good thing to do here.

"Is there a way I can still maintain contact with her from a distance? Is there a way I can try to explain this to my brother to avoid conflict over it with him?"

Why would you want at all to is the question I would put to you re your first sentence. Has she not already done enough damage?. These people never ever take any responsibility for their actions or apologise for same.

Your brother being in the role that your mother assigned to him (that of golden child) will continue to put her before you as his sister. He has not chosen to believe your version of events and has continued to wear the rose tinted goggles.

I would suggest counselling for your own self re your dysfunctional birth family, BACP are good and do not charge the earth.

I would also suggest that you read Children of the Self Absorbed written by Nina W Brown as well as reading the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers.

Have seen your update.

I'm glad you're confident your father isn't a rapist (calling a spade a spade) but the law only changed within your lifetime so your mother's perception of what marriage is might not be the same as yours.

I see from your update that she isn't horrible only to women but also to men. And in that case like pps I have to wonder why you're even entertaining the idea of maintaining contact with her, let alone fostering a relationship between her and your son.

It's easier to feel protective of one's children than oneself, in my experience. I suspect this will feel more straightforward when he's in your arms and your mama-lion instincts come to the fore.

'Why would you want at all to is the question I would put to you re your first sentence. Has she not already done enough damage?. These people never ever take any responsibility for their actions or apologise for same.'

Yes, I know. I've been told this a lot, and it's something that as much as I agree with you, I just can't change my feelings. I know that if I cut contact with her I would wonder about her and miss her somewhat, but then every time I speak to her I just get upset. I don't get anything out of our relationship but if I cut contact I would feel just as bad, if not worse. I don't think I would ever really feel OK about it.

I also know she won't change. She doesn't ever understand that what she has done is wrong, and has never apologised for anything. Even things that are blatantly obviously wrong; when I was little she once, drunkenly, pulled me over her lap and hit me for five minutes or so while I cried and cried. She just laughed - it was purely for amusement; I hadn't done anything wrong. Meanwhile, my brother took photographs of it (at her behest) and found it hilarious.

'Your brother being in the role that your mother assigned to him (that of golden child) will continue to put her before you as his sister. He has not chosen to believe your version of events and has continued to wear the rose tinted goggles.'

I know, but you have to think that his childhood was not easy either - even if he these days seems to think it was. She did say things to him that were unfair; she frequently threatened to send him away and would, when he was very young and quite clingy, deliberately hide from him in the supermarket while he cried for her. (She tells us this story now like it's something funny, with no shame at all.)

There is obviously something wrong that he doesn't find these things to be serious problems, and I can't help but feel a bit sorry for him. While he might have been the favourite and in many, many ways had it a lot easier than me - I was essentially bullied horribly by both of them throughout my entire childhood - in some ways I feel more fortunate. Sure, I'm clearly not independent enough to just break away and cut her off, but I'm a lot more clear-sighted about it than he is.

Sorry that you have a shit mum.

But, what you are proposing is slowly building up your childs trust in HER, and then what? Child loves her grandma, because you have conditioned her to it, and then when child is old enough to go see grandma on her own becomes groomed to accept abuse like you have? You will be teaching your child that grandma is a trustworthy person, when she isnt. Thats just fucked up. Sorry.

QS: I definitely wouldn't do that. One, I wouldn't ever, at any age, let my child see my mum without me.

Two, I think even from an early age I would try to explain sensitively that grandma isn't very well. I don't know how I'd do it, but it would be something I would make clear from the start.

You are wrong to assume that a child will understand the subtle difference between you being there and not. He wont question this, as many children grow up not spending much time with their grandparents alone, for whatever reason.

You are also wrong to assume that you can control your mothers behaviour, even if you are out in public.

I can see how you think you will be able to make a child understand, and not take another adults behaviour personally if you dont yet have children, but I can assure you it is as difficult as pulling blood out of a stone, you cannot control your childs mind, and thoughts, like you think you can control your mums behaviour.

You are grooming your child to trust your mum, whether you like the thought of it or not.

Your mother sounds like mine I have previously tried to fix things but have realised I can't fix her. she is who she is and she is not a vary nice person at all. Our son was born in April and I made the decision to cut all contact with her. To be fair I haven't had proper contact with her for years but we live in the same town and will say hi if I bump into her but even that will stop now. she can seem fine from one week to the next and then out of nowhere send a bitchy email blaming me for everything. I won't have my son around someone like that. You couldn't protect yourself from her as a child but you sure can protect your son. I have lost contact with 2 brothers and a sister due to no contact with my mother but it is worth it.

I don't understand why you need to explain yourself, re taking the child to see your father? You are an adult, you can see who you like. Your toxic mum will have to put up with it . I know, I know, lots of shouting, blaming, crying, accusing.... actually - so what?

Take your child to see who and when you want. It might even be liberating to challenge her.

It's not that hard to go NC - i have not had contact with my father for 20+ years. My dc know they have at least one GF they have never seen (DPs father is unknown) and just accept it. It's a relationship they never had, so don't miss it. And I never felt guilty about keeping a grandfather from them!

Oh, you poor thing, I really feel for you. I don't have a great relationship to my mother, but she's nothing like what your mum sounds like.

To me it also sounds like you have accepted the role of the one who make everything work and smooth out everything in the family? Correct me if I am wrong. But if I am right - you don't have to do this.

Only one person can change your mum, and that's herself. You can't actually help her. As much as you want your child to have a grandmother, it's only your mum who can decide that, by her behaviour.

When your child is born, you will quickly get really good at making those difficult decisions, trust me. That's just happens, you will get really good at prioritising, also emotionally and in family matters.

Best of luck!

"I know that if I cut contact with her I would wonder about her and miss her somewhat, but then every time I speak to her I just get upset. I don't get anything out of our relationship but if I cut contact I would feel just as bad, if not worse. I don't think I would ever really feel OK about it".

Would you really wonder about her or would you actually think that is a deadweight lifted from your life?.

That's FOG talking really; that is your fear, obligation and guilt. You have put physical distance but you're still conditioned to serving her and her needs really. This is precisely the sort of damage narcissistic people like your mother do. You've put her first and always at your own expense; she conditioned you to do that and tried to make you an extension of her.

And do not think she would not start on you even if your child was in her presence because she most certainly would do so. If you find her too bloody difficult and or toxic to deal with, she will be the self same to your child. She would also use your child to get back at you. You simply must not and cannot keep going back for yet more abuse from her; you already get upset in just speaking to her. Really, these people do not change.

I would certainly suggest that you see a counsellor asap to talk about your dysfunctional birth family.

Unfortunately (and that is an understatement) no-one was around to protect both you and your brother from her. Your dad failed you and his son too on that particular front.

You may also find this excerpt from this blog helpful:-

"Do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behavior; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

Cutting off from your narcissist parent is a good thing. No need to act otherwise. Your children will sense it is a good thing by how you behave. Model how you want them to respond and it is likely they will imitate. Don't be afraid of their questions. Kids are amazingly resilient and well-equipped to handle truth. Parents are supposed to protect their progeny. If your child doesn't agree with how you go about that don't worry. They will often disagree with your decisions for their best interests. Nothing new there. It is your job as parent to make the tough decisions. If you know it is the right decision then proceed with confidence. Showing confidence is a quality of leadership. As a parent you are supposed to be a leader. Lead...and they will likely follow".

OP, i have been there. you are still very young and you are going to think me harsh. but here goes.

I've been told this a lot, and it's something that as much as I agree with you, I just can't change my feelings.

if you are going to avoid making the same mistakes as your mother, you need to realise something very very important.

your feelings are not an indication of anything but your mother's influence on you. they are not an indication of reality, or of anything she deserves or anything you are really obligated to give her.

the truth is that your mother is a nasty woman who you should keep your DCs away from at all costs. you should be keeping yourself away from her too. your feelings should be taken into therapy and sorted out. not used as a barometer of how you should behave.

your mother spends her life reacting to her emotions. emotions that were likely set up inside her by her own abusive parents. don't make the same mistake. Start engaging your brain and making the RIGHT decisions. break the cycle.

people who are nasty and abusive have no hope of change as long as those that they victimise continue to break their fall, and take away the consequences of the abuse.

don't make the mistake of placating your feelings, salving your guilt, avoiding the truth of the situation. you are only making it easier for her to be sick and twisted. you make yourself part of the problem. you continue the dance.