Toxic elderly parents

[ToastoParis]

I have tried to post on the elderly parents board but I deleted it because I'm not like them. They are having a hard time but they love their parents. Mine need a huge amount of care and they are experts at making me feel I need to provide it- and I feel that they are poisoning my life. They are self-absorbed and ungrateful and I want to walk away but I'm too weak. I've been diagnosed with severe depression but they don't care - they are convinced that their needs are the only important ones. The only good thing this situation has done is that I have been forced to explore why we are this way and I have realised they are narcissists and I'm codependent. I now know why I longed to be taken into foster care when I was in primary school. I longed for help but they kept the family isolated and no-one ever helped. I have siblings but they range from no contact with my parents to "pretend" contact but actually virtually zero. I am completely alone and too stupid and weak to protect myself and my own family. How can I judge what is reasonable help and when I need to say no when I have no sense of what is normal? Even if I could, I'm too afraid of their wrath and condemnation. I wish I could emulate my siblings and ignore them. I feel so hopeless.

I really feel for you- I understand what you are saying. Currently dealing with similar issues and have been.
My only advice would be enlist all the help you can- age uk/ local authority etc. gp etc.
I have arranged cleaner/ carer/ transport to physio gardener etc- and step back and try and protect my boundaries.
Counselling helps too- to sort out our own issues. The elderly parents thread is not just for saints and martyrs- many posters struggle. Think about what you are prepared to do- then stop. Good luck

I'm sorry to hear that you're having to deal with this. It must make things very tricky to feel pushed into supporting people who were never supportive to you.

Can you focus your 'help' on making sure they are getting what they are entitled to from the state and other bodies? You do not have to be round there every five minutes sorting things out for them, but you could help them to find help via social services or the GP.

Twentyten, thanks for your reply. I am heartened to know that someone else is struggling in the same way. I feel ashamed of myself feeling this way which is maybe why I thought others on the elderly parents thread would judge me as harshly as I often judge myself. Your comment about boundaries is interesting. I hadn't thought of my relationship with my parents as having boundaries - which is why I feel so overwhelmed. I know I need to take responsibility for my own life and actions- just not too sure how to do that. Off to do some reading and thinking.

AMuminScotland, thank you for understanding. That's exactly what it is - feeling i have to support them when they never supported me. I find myself pretending to my friends that I love them and then I feel so deceitful and alienated from everyone. I have got them lots of help (which they genuinely need) but they refuse as much as possible because they want me to provide it personally. I was feeling very down this morning but am determined to get my head around not being there every 5 mins. Being honest about my feelings on mumsnet and having someone empathise has actually cheered me up. Thanks again.

I observed this sort of caring for an elderly parent at close quarters and it was a living nightmare for the family people who were carers. I truly don't know how they coped for all those years.

It was, sadly, a huge relief when she actually died.

Feeling you love someone and acting responsibly and caringly are two different things. You can choose to act caringly but no one and nothing in this world can make you genuinely love people who have acted in a way that kills your love for them.

And that's not bad. It's okay to not love them, though it might be wiser not to say so aloud. It's also okay to say 'so far and no further' because while yeah, I personally think you do have some obligation to aged parents, that does not mean you have to do everything for them.

When they expect you to do things that their carers can do, tell them that. "it's the carer's responsibility to do that, I have to go and do XXXX for my own family" "I'm sorry, I can't do that now, the carer can do it, it's her job". Repeat and if necessary, literally let yourself out of the door and come back when YOU can. Not when they demand.

They won't like it but think of your own family and maybe that will give you a bit of strength.

Your own family is the future, that's where your love and attention and care and concern mainly needs to go.

Love mostly goes -down- through the generations, not upwards; sure, some can go up but the most needs to go on to the next generatoin.

Can you talk to your partner at all? what does he think of this?

Meerka, yes it's the anxiety of wanting to doing the right thing so that I can live with myself but knowing that this is too much. Disastrous and damaging as their parenting was, it probably had its roots in their own childhoods. I take some comfort from my own determination not to continue the cycle with my much loved daughter. My partner is a wonderful person who helps me by stepping in and caring for them to take the pressure off me - but I feel guilty that he does this because I can't take his advice about backing off. I suppose I know that they are well looked after but they will never see that -they wail about how neglected they are. Writing this down has made me see how foolish I am by pandering to them. I feel that they destroyed my childhood and now they are destroying my time for motherhood by severely limiting my time and energy for my daughter.

Are you in touch with/on good terms with your siblings? Can you enlist their advice and support in putting some distance between you and your parents, and establishing some boundaries?

Tell yourself - often - that their wrath and condemnation cannot affect you. Because it can't if you don't let it. What can they actually do to you? Pester you on the phone? Get a phone that shows what number is calling you and don't answer it.

Honestly you can take control of this situation although it probably seems like too huge a mountain to climb at the moment. Counselling is a great idea to give you a different perspective on this.

Hang in there!

....I have got them lots of help (which they genuinely need) but they refuse as much as possible because they want me to provide it personally.....

Boy does that resonate. They're failing but still trying to control you.

As your DP understands what is going on and is backing you (so won't dive in without your say-so, I guess) would it be possible for you to say 'No' to them on a small thing or two to see how it went? Just as a start. You must be emotionally and physically exhausted.

Angel, they really don't deserve your concern and sense of obligation. I do understand that the lack of contact by your siblings has proven to tighten your own shackles, but in a way they are of you own making. Take your cue from them and preserve your own sanity. Your parents are blood-sucking parasites and they won't be happy until you are left an empty, dry husk. Eh, maybe not even then.

"They are self-absorbed and ungrateful and I want to walk away but I'm too weak."

You're not too weak. You have shown massive strength and forebearance by the care you have provided for them. A situation they have ensured out of their own selfishness. If they had ever shown any care and compassion to you I would understand your sense of obligation, and guilt for distancing yourself. They don't deserve you. Tell yourself that over and over and over again.

You're all so lovely! I can't remember when someone was so supportive - except for my wonderful DP. Ratherberiding - my siblings have made it clear that they disapprove of my caring for our parents and they will not be drawn in. I was the eldest child and was put in charge of them from the age about 6 so i have a bit of history of rescuing them too. I used to feel responsible for not protecting them better (they range from 1 year younger than me to 5 years- 1 child a year) so i tried to make up for it as an adult by giving them all my time and money until I met my lovely DP who convinced me that I deserved to think about myself.

The difference with this situation is that I can't leave my parents to fend for themselves - much as they richly deserve it. They are old, very incapacitated and vulnerable. But I do see that they are not as vulnerable as they claim to be - after all I will always look out for them and advocate for them - I just need to reduce the time I spend doing that. I need to face my fear -you're right, their wrath and condemnation will only affect me as much as I let it. The beating, screaming and smashed dishes are all in the past. They are much better looked after than we children ever were.

Could you do something for the next week/few days? (I'd suggest you did it for last week but your brain will likely have blocked a lot of it.)

Could you write down in a quick journal every phone call from them and what it was about/every time you went across there and what you did etc ? If you could also write down what you felt at the time that would be great for you - but either way, I think it would be illuminating for you to get (and have in your possession) a picture of what you're actually doing. I'll lay a modest wager that you're undertaking a lot more than you realize.

Its clear there is a pattern of caring for others laid down from a very early age for you.

Therapy - probably with a dual focus on examining your own thoughts / patterns / attitudes and also on the practical, the here and now - does sound a good idea.

Tackling both the mental mindset which, atm has you putting your available time towards parents over your daughter ((sorry, harsh but true; its not your fault) and the pragmatic ways you can start to say No to your parents will help.

As others have said, they may shout or get nasty but what can they actually do? You have, now, the power to walk away at least for that day.

The feeling of guilt and being a bad person if you do say No is actually, when it comes down to it, an emotion. You have your partner's support and you have your own head that sees that your daughter comes first, however much your guilt button is triggered.

Emotions are useful but they are only that. Emotions. You can ride it out - especially when your head is telling you that you're doing the right thing.

It might help if you literally sit down and on the back of cozietoes' piece of paper recording calls, write out what you are going to say no to and how that will make you feel and how you can handle it and why, crucially, it's right to say No over the smaller things. That can help you ride the waves of guilt and badness. Silly idea here too - if you can - go and do some exercise afterwards. It might help you feel better and give you head-space.

Thanks Cozietoesie and Meerka- you know what? I'm buoyed up by all the support I've got here today and I'm going to take your advice. Reality and exercise sounds good to me. Wish me luck. Heading out for a walk right now.

Have a good one.

Remember - if you do decide to document things, don't edit eg don't only write down things which you currently consider 'frivolous'. Put everything down including missed phone calls and serious matters. I'd even include phone calls from the siblings 'enquiring' about the parents. Just so that you can get an idea of the complete picture.

You never know, by the way, when such a record might be useful not only for you but if you have to have any hard discussions with official bodies about their current and future care package.

Oh, I really hate to read posts like this. Please, please understand OP that you are not a bad person and that you have NO responsibility for caring for your parents, you really don't. They were hopeless, unpleasant parents, so you owe them absolutely nothing. There is no law to say that you have to run around after them like a servant and take all their wrath and nastiness as well. As previous posters have pointed out, you are actually putting the people that you do love - your daughter and partner - at a disadvantage by doing this, which is quite selfish in its own way.

Society is very good at guilting people (and women in particular) into putting other people's needs before their own. In reality you don't owe anyone anything (aside for dependent children that is) just because of an accident of birth. These people sound truly horrible to me, you must learn not to accept the guilt and to do only what you want to do with regard to their needs.

If they refuse help then let them cope with the consequences - sometimes people have to have a minor crisis before they will accept that they are not necessarily going to get what they want, but that they will get what they need. I am a great believer in the saying 'you reap what you sow', you parents are feeling the consequences of sowing nothing and getting very little in return - that is their problem, they made their choices.

What your parents think or what other people think is irrelevant. Other people have not lived your life and therefore have no right to judge. Also, please stop pretending you have a great relationship with your parents when you don't, if you start to be honest then you will find that other people will too and you will be surprised at how many people don't have chocolate box relationships with their family, it's much more common than you think.

I think you need counseling to break out of the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt). You can do this, in fact, you MUST do this otherwise your relationships with your daughter and partner will start to deteriorate as they fail to understand why you are letting these people control and dominate you to such an extent that you now have severe depression. You are strong, you just haven't realised it yet, if you learn to ignore what other people think you should do then you will be a lot happier - a little selfishness is no bad thing, it's what we need to survive. I am a Guardian-reading leftie in all other ways, but I really believe this.

I have got them lots of help (which they genuinely need) but they refuse as much as possible because they want me to provide it personally

I completely understand where you're coming from, having a MIL exactly the same. Of course you realise this is mainly about manipulation on their part, and that nothing, simply nothing you could ever do would be enough; you could break yourself in the process and still they'd whine

That being the case, the only thing you can now do - having put so much in place for them - is to become unavailable occasionally and build this up until you're doing what you feel comfortable with and no more

As a very wise support worker once told me "yes they need care, but that doesn't mean it all has to come from you"

Toast- some real wisdom and support here. You deserve it.
What I found helpful was working out what I did feel I could do- and sticking to it. Telling dm I'll pop in on Sunday- not before.
Routine seems to help expectations-although patterns can't be too rigid in case they need to change. (For you)
Counselling would help- you have a lot to deal with. I empathise with the "breaking the chain " bit with the next generation but it's tough.
Treats for you are essential self maintenance!!

thats a really good idea, to set up times you'll go and (flexible) routines. People work by expectatoins. Knowing when you will be there will (subtly) be reassuring to them, even if they complain bitterly. letting them know what they -can- expect is fair to them and fair to yourself.

agreed about treats for yourself!!