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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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Original poster

Argument etiquette

24 replies

Pantsmagicpants · 01/06/2014 22:32

There's loads of back story to this that I don't really want to get into and I suspect DH is actually quite abusive generally but I wanted an opinion on this particular situation and if I was in the wrong.

DH and I had a row yesterday, a really odd row. I made a jokey comment about something (him deleting text messages) and he then started accusing me of 'taking the piss out of him for being tidy' and calling me lazy, messy and I think he called me a whore. I genuinely thought for quite a while that he was kidding and being pretend angry because it would have been a really ott reaction to get genuinely pissed off. Fwiw the actual conversation was him saying he'd got a spam text from some ppi thing and that he'd have to delete it, I responded with 'but you'd have deleted it whatever it was surely? you always delete all your messages. Bit suspicious that' said with a smile. I only realised he was genuinely pissed off when he said something like 'you're really fucking me off now, I've had enough' and walked out of the room.

So, I left it for half an hour and then went downstairs to try and find out wtf had happened.

When I got downstairs I tried to talk to him about what had happened and why he was angry and explain that I wasn't taking the piss out of him. He got more wound up and told me to fuck off back upstairs and sort of waved me away in a really dismissive manner. I said he had no right to tell me I wasn't allowed to be downstairs and he said he wasn't telling me I couldn't be downstairs, just that if I was there I would be making him angry (and therefore scary and aggressive although not violent).

So - he was pissed off with me and walked away (from upstairs) that feels like a good thing but how long am I then supposed to stay out of his way? Was I wrong to go and try and speak to him about it? should I have left when he asked me to (however rudely)? Even though he says that I can go where I want it doesn't feel like that's really a choice if it's 'you can go where you want but if that happens to be where I am I will get angry'.

I know that the simple answer is LTB and then I can do as I please but I'm not in a good place to do that right now.

In a non abusive relationship if someone walks away to calm down what is acceptable in terms of following them to discuss things afterwards? Do you have to wait until they come to you?

OP posts:

LadyGardenersQuestionTime · 01/06/2014 22:36

What difference would it make? You'd still be miserable with him.

LaurieFairyCake · 01/06/2014 22:37

All discussions should take place between consenting parties - it's not ok to follow or pursue someone.

When someone takes an extreme position like stonewalling and refuses to engage in difficult conversations then the other person can choose not to be with someone who stonewalls ( which is abusive IMO)

Lioninthesun · 01/06/2014 22:38

He isn't being reasonable, so unfortunately no matter what you do it will not end well.

cjelh · 01/06/2014 22:40

I don't know , but why would you have to think so much about whether what you do is right or wrong. Too stressful.

Joysmum · 01/06/2014 22:48

In our case, DH waits for me to come into his space again (I normally leave the house though) then comes and hugs me and we are both grateful for the contact and to know we can disagree but get through it.

Only1scoop · 01/06/2014 22:50

Sounds tiring for you having to try and figure it all out. Mistrust can drain you emotionally.

rosepetalsoup · 01/06/2014 22:52

OP, I end up doing exactly the same as you in arguments -- accidentally pursuing my DP to be told to leave him alone til he calms down, which seems to take an inordinately long time (and even then he wants to let things sort of drift back into being normal, with no big reconciliation).

Watching with interest - no tips!

I wish my DH was like Joysmum's

rosepetalsoup · 01/06/2014 22:53

P.s. I should say mine I don't distrust / have any weird stuff with texts and so on -- I'm just talking about normal arguments!!

Original poster

Pantsmagicpants · 01/06/2014 22:57

It is tiring and ridiculous and it makes me unhappy. I'm aware of that sadly.

I'm not mistrustful of him (if you're meaning by my bit suspicious comment it was genuinely a joke - he does and has always deleted everything texts, emails etc. I'm not actually suspicious of that).

I don't think it's ok for me to have to stay upstairs though because he's angry with me? I didn't immediately persue him and try to argue. I left it 30 minutes and then went and asked what had happened. Is that not ok?

I don't think I know what's normal anymore .

OP posts:

rosepetalsoup · 01/06/2014 23:05

As I said my DH is the same. He would not like it if I followed him and asked what was wrong/what happened. He'd probably say 'leave it' then come and talk to me 20 mins later about something else. It's not a deal breaker but it is annoying and not at all like exes I've had who were much more like me i.e. be upset while flying off the handle/raw nerve is touched but then want to make up with hugs and tears and sorrys afterwards.

LaurieFairyCake · 01/06/2014 23:08

Going to ask what happened is fine but as soon as someone says they don't want to talk then you have to wait til you both agree to talk.

Obviously you don't have to stay upstairs - you can go out etc

It can take some people a long time to calm down but the general principle should be that difficult discussions happen when both parties want to.

rosepetalsoup · 01/06/2014 23:12

I think maybe Laurie is right. I'm sure I'm annoying as hell - I follow, sad and agitated, wanting to resolve it now now now.

Sorry to gatecrash OP - I'm just trying to offer a parallel scenario.

PoundingTheStreets · 01/06/2014 23:14

This is the trouble with abusive relationships. They kill your ability to work out what is normal and what is reasonable. You can't juxtapose normal, reasonable communication boundaries onto an abusive relationship because in itself it isn't reasonable.

What happens is that you work hard on trying to be fair, reasonable and accommodating yourself - believing it will make it easier to show how unreasonable the other person's behaviour is so that they can no longer deny it, can't say "yes, but you did this..." and will have to listen to you.

In reality, all that happens is that you become incapable of maintaining boundaries. You start altering your behaviour so much that you do your abuser's job for them.

I know it's hard for you Pants but please don't waste your valuable energy on this. Instead pour it all into getting yourself into a better place so that you can face leaving, even if it's not right now. Just accept that you are not wrong even if you have to pretend to him that you are in order to get through it.

toyoungtodie · 02/06/2014 07:49

The key here is that you said 'I think DH is abusive generally' Mmmm. If this scenario is happening a lot and you feel frightened around him , more than not, then things are not good between you. However if it is a situation that happens now and again and generally you are happy with him then it is part of the ups and downs of a marriage. How is his work going? Is he stressed? My DH only got grumpy in 42 years when he was under pressure at work. Once he stepped down from being the boss he became his normal self again. It was not good to take it out on me but when I was stressed at work I knew I took it out on him, but I was never frightened of him.

KikiShack · 02/06/2014 08:40

I think the whole situation from his reaction to your joke to his storming off and still not being calm after 30 mins is utterly unreasonable.
There is no way in a million years my DP would act like that at any of those points. Firstly he'd see my smile and know I was joking, and even if he didn't his reaction would be to reassure me that he's nut ding anything suspicious. If we still had crossed wires he'd kindly either tell me that I'm being a bit unfair to accuse him of stuff and he'd ask if I was genuinely worried.
And if we ever got to the stage of a huge row where one of us needed space we would communicate that. Eg he'd say 'I'm really angry about this and I need a few minutes to get myself together so I'm going to go out / shut myself in the bedroom for some alone time ok?'
Every part of how your husband it's acting is unreasonable, unfair, and unloving imo.
Start making plans to ltb, you deserve to live without this.

KikiShack · 02/06/2014 08:44

And in answer to your question about how long, it's expect my DP to come to me after 5-10 mins, or if he really needed longer to tell me how long. I would never expect him to just stay angry for an indefinite period of time. That's really manipulative behavior, keeping you on edge and him in the power seat. He sounds like a nasty piece of work.There are plenty of men in the world who aren't like this, why stay with one who is? Good luck with it all.

Original poster

Pantsmagicpants · 02/06/2014 09:24

Thanks, it helps me to try and remember what normal is. I think you're right Pounding and I know my sense of normal is skewed.

Toyoung this particular situation isn't why I think he's abusive, as I said there's a lot of back story and things I've missed out. My not going upstairs when dismissed resulted in him smashing things and telling me he wanted to scare me. He's been physically abusive in the past though in classic fashion 'has never actually hit me'. Telling me I could stay downstairs but I would be making him angry translates as 'leave now or I will break stuff / get in your face'. I didn't mention it in the OP because I know that that's wrong - it was the bit before I wasn't sure about.

OP posts:

wallaby73 · 03/06/2014 11:10

Hang on HANG ON.....he called you a "whore"?? Seriously? This in itself.....is it just me or does this say a hell of a lot here???

TumbleweedOnspeed · 04/06/2014 01:16

Am I the only one that noticed the passive aggressive provocation by the OP in the first place?

Said to husband: 'You always delete all your messages. Bit suspicious that...' said with a smile'.

You have made an accusation at him and he became annoyed, so he walked away from the situation.
You then followed him and continued the topic that annoyed him, so he became cornered and warned you it was making him angry, and requested that you leave him alone. You were following him and not allowing him space to cool down.

Iflyaway · 04/06/2014 01:24

"resulted in him smashing things"

Original poster

Pantsmagicpants · 04/06/2014 01:40

Tumbleweed There was nothing passive agressive about it. It was a joke, said in a friendly manner and with no actual accusation as DH is well aware. He wasn't angry with me about me saying it was a bit suspicious. He was angry because he somehow linked my comment about him deleting everything to taking the piss out of him being / liking things tidy. Which I wasn't.

He wasn't cornered at any point. He could have left the room or gone out. Although I will agree I probably should have left him to come to me practically that would have been hours and if I'm 100% honest 'fuck off back upstairs' with a little wave really pissed me off when as far as I was concerned I'd done nothing in the first place.

OP posts:

Original poster

Pantsmagicpants · 04/06/2014 01:47

Sorry, that wasn't terribly clear. I mean he could have left the room again or left the house rather than sending me to my room. At which point I would have left him to it again.
I didn't go down to start a fight. We weren't arguing when he left the room - or at least not that I was aware of until he walked out. I went to see what had happened and explain and apologise as needed.

OP posts:

wafflyversatile · 04/06/2014 02:27

You could tie yourself in knots trying to apportion the correct amount of blame to each of you in this particular instance but it will make no difference to the overarching issue here which is that he is abusive and violent, and that you needed to look to splitting up.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 04/06/2014 06:49

All this analysis and worrying is so pointless. He's really abusive and that's the beginning and end of his motivation. He's not reasonable, he's horrible. If you can't leave him yet then work on emotionally detaching so his crap affects you less.

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