A mother with narcissistic tendencies?

[RavingRavs]

My suspicions are that my friend is a narcissistic mother.I will be glad to be told that I am making a mountain out of a molehill and that I have labelled her incorrectly. It is just that something does not feel right. I feel really sorry for her daughter and wish that I could help in some way. I have known my friend for the last 3 years. She is married and her daughter is aged 11. Her daughter is friends with my daughter.

My friend's daughter is brilliant academically. Her mother has already chalked out her daughter's career path for her. Take a specific degree from a specific university from a specific country and then work in a specific country ensuring huge earning potential. She has 'spoken' to her daughter about not having boyfriends till she finishes her university. The mother's own career ambitions were thwarted by her parents (that is what she told me).

On a recent trip, her daughter excitedly pointed out something that she saw (we were in the same car) to her dad, her mother lashed out at her saying 'how many times have I told you not to do this?' The daughter started to weep silently. I was flabbergasted because I could not understand the reason for her lashing out. The only conclusion I came to was that the mother was angry because her daughter pointed out something to her dad (my friend's husband) instead of her.

On another occasion, her daughter was walking with her dad (my friend's husband) and my friend was walking a little behind them when she had another meltdown - this time because they were walking together and excluding her. We have been on several trips with each other and on each occasion her daughter has cried once or twice. During one of these crying bouts I heard her tell her mum - 'you don't love me'. Her mum said that you are just tired and that is why you are saying such things. She has frequently shouted at her husband on trips when he wandered off (a few minutes away) or for other minor reasons. Her husband does not say anything when she shouts at him in front of everyone. My friend has also had a meltdown in my house where she abused her mother-in-law loudly knowing that her husband was in the next room and could hear every word.

I first suspected that she may have issues with the closeness between her daughter and her husband (who is her daughter's dad). I suspect that both husband and daughter walk on eggshells in her presence when at home. My friend is funny and very good company. She talks a lot. Her husband is just the opposite. He is an extremely quiet individual.

Her daughter feels extremely anxious before every exam-including her musical exams. My friend herself told me that her daughter feels anxious because she does not want to disappoint her. She also went on to say that she has never ever pressurised her daughter. I suspect that her daughter is not really happy but I may be wrong. They frequently go out as a family to plays, trips and they do other fun things together. She does not lack anything materially. However from what I have seen, the mother always has to come first always.

My friend is an extremely strong individual. She sometimes scares people off with her strong views and personality. I have no doubt that she would not understand if I try to talk to her and tbh I am not brave enough to do that. I suspect that she cannot handle criticism and definitely not where her daughter is concerned. That would be the end of our 'friendship'.

Initially I thought that she simply got angry easily. However I have started to notice her behaviour with husband and child and something is not right. My husband who is the most practical man on the planet with a lot of common sense also feels the same. What should I do?

Is the daughter an only child? I don't know about diagnosing narcissism but she certainly sounds like a bully. The mother appears to be living out her ambitions vicariously through the child to an unhealthy degree and also seems to be jealous that she has the affection of her father... which is pretty odd. As for the pressure around exams. What a bully of a woman calls pressure and what a 11yo girl calls pressure are not the same thing at all. All kids want to impress their parents when it comes to exams etc but, if she lives in an atmosphere where Dad is bullied and her career/uni trajectory is mapped out, she'll be terrified of falling short.

"I suspect that she cannot handle criticism and definitely not where her daughter is concerned. That would be the end of our 'friendship'."

Someone has to stand up to her.... If she gets away with intimidating you the way she intimidates others, she'll carry on regardless.

You might be right, but I don't see how you can easily intervene without making things worse. There isn't really a good way to tackle a narcissist as they will never think they are wrong, and are unlikely to change their behaviour in response to criticism. Your friend might even cut you out completely if you try to tackle her on this.

You need to be really careful how you handle this because if you go about it the wrong way, you could easily make things worse for your friend's daughter.

Could you somehow (very gently and in such a way as that the friend doesn't perceive it as criticism - you need to be really careful about this as narcissists do not respond well to anything they perceive as being critical of them) make sure the daughter knows that you & family are sympathetic to her, and that she is always welcome to stay with you / come to you in a crisis?

It may well be that things will escalate as she goes through adolescence & grows up - in case the mother 'punishes' her for growing up / developing her own views on things?

You could do this through the guise of, your daughter inviting her over to stay often (and it might well be better coming from daughter rather than coming from you) and letting her know that she's always welcome in your house, no matter what.

It's a tricky situation because I don't think any attempt to intervene in your friend's parenting style is going to help at all, in fact I think the only thing you could plausibly do is offer an 'escape route' for her daughter.

She sounds horrifically like my mother. The bit about mapping out A-levels/university/career path especially. And the musical exams. I graduated qualified to do nothing but the same as she does. Nothing.

When I was 11, nothing any adults did or said in trying to stand up to her helped. Just made things much worse. But I DID really appreciate knowing other adults who were kind, to me and to their own children. It meant so much, seeing that there was another way to live that didn't involve falling out with everyone and bullying everyone. I really, really appreciated being welcome in another family home when my own was the last place I wanted to be. I loved being around adults who were calm and considerate. It meant everything.

Your circumstances might be different - you might feel willing to stand up to your friend, it might do some good - but at the very least, being kind and supportive to her daughter would help her, if she ever gets to come and spend time round yours.

I don't think the OP should 'intervene in the friend's parenting style.' However, if they are yelling at husbands in the street or little kids in the car, I think it would be totally appropriate to tell them to back off and calm down because they're making a massive dick of themselves!!

PS I would have been so grateful to have a family friend like you at that age. Thank you for caring about her.

I can see where cogito is coming from, but I suspect that even commenting on this woman's behaviour wiyld lead to an immediate and complete breakdown in the relationship between the 2 families.
Do they have other friends and family they socialise with?
I suspect not. OP you need to seriously consider if you can maintain the friendship. We have a similar family member and hang in there to model good behaviour and to act as a safety valve but for many years it was a very uncomfortable place to be. I felt by not confronting her I was colluding with her behaviour. We've come out the other side now- my DDs think she's an embarrassing loon and we're close enough to her DCs to advise and show that there are alternatives.

If there's a breakdown in the relationship, wouldn't that be a good thing? Aside from your DDs being friends, why do you want to hang out with this dysfunctional family anyway OP?

Ok... I have a lot of sympathy for the daughter when it comes to the mother pushing her and upsetting her to the point of tears. This would make any normal mother feel horrid and ashamed. I could not handle seeing my daughter being upset if I had spoken to her like that.

That being said, I feel that I can relate to getting annoyed when DH wanders off without me. I love the bond he has with DD but I think it's extremely inconsiderate to go out together and have me hobbling along behind trying to catch up to them while they are off in their own little world. This has happened to me numerous times where DH will be 2 blocks away before even looking back to see where I am (often carrying all the bags, trying to negotiate the crowds etc) Regardless of the fact I am heavily pregnant- he does it when I'm not too and it drives me mad... So I'm afraid I would have snapped a bit too if that was me.

As for the MIL. You don't know if there are unresolved issues there and he is being passive and she is feeling like this is her only way to get her point across. Not the best way granted but sounds human to me. She might realise she is coming across like an ogre and he is coming across all gentle and kind and loving but chances are he is not pulling his weight or ignoring a major issue in some way and she is reacting to that....

I would not comment on the grown up relationship to her, they are both adults and he can defend himself if he feels he is being treated unfairly, I would on the other hand suggest something in a gentle way that might show your friend she is being too hard on her DD as it does sound like she is majorly projecting and it will have some very strong repercussions.

Thank you all so much for your suggestions. I was really confused and feel so much better now.

CogitoErgoSometimes, yes she is an only daughter. You are right. If the bullying gets out of hand in front of us then it would be appropriate to 'tick her off'. When her daughter started to weep, I comforted her daughter but did not say anything to my friend because I was so massively confused as to the reason for her shouting. It was only later that all the pieces started to fit in place. However I will be on my guard now and try to do the best under the circumstances without tipping the boat over.

BruceSpringClean, providing an escape route for her daughter and an environment where she is free to come whenever she wants sounds like a brilliant idea.

BosieDufflecoat, that was the main reason for my post. I do not want the girl to suffer and if this can be nipped in the bud before it becomes a full fledged problem then so much better. Like I said, providing a calm and welcome environment to her daughter is one of the few things that I can do at this stage. If a situation comes up where I can surreptiously make my friend understand the potential emotional harm that parents can cause their kids then I will try and do my best.

Is it possible to encourage your DDs to remain friends, have the kid round to yours, but not hang out with them as a family and not allow your DD to spend too much time in their home?

Nunyabiz, it is not like she was walking alone, all my herself. We were all in a big group strolling along a picturesque canal with her husband and daughter walking a little way ahead from the rest of us. To be honest, I am least concerned about the relationship that she shares with her husband or MIL. I am just worried about her daughter and mentioned those things to display an aspect of her personality.

CogitoErgoSometimes that will be like running away. I am not sure that I want to totally break off friendship with my friend at this stage. I have only just realised that she is a little dysfunctional.

Ideally the DH would realise he doesn't want to put up with abuse for himself or their child and separate with him having custody of the child. Easier said than done....

I suppose you could see if you have the chance to talk to him or let him open up. refer him to mankind if appropriate.

wafflyversatile, refer him mankind??

wafflyversatile, just googled it.
TBH I do not know whether the family realises that there is a problem. I guess DH would only be trying to keep the peace in the house. Talking to him would be the last thing that I would do as that would be taken as unnecessary meddling in their relationship.

A website to help men in abusive relationships.

www.mankind.org.uk/

Raving- oh I see. That does sound like odd behaviour. But based on how she treats her DD I would be concerned anyway. You are doing a good thing being there for her DD.

I know the mum sounds very controlling and nasty but I can't help but feel a little bit sorry for her. Of course my sympathy for her DD overrides that, but what horrible way to be. It makes me wonder what leads people to that point where they are essentially pushing their loved ones away.

Of course it would be! She can't have people meddling or them opening up to others.

No, the chances of you ever being able to have a constructive discussion with him are slim, but if the chance does ever happen and it feels appropriate you now know they exist. Anything you try to do is risky because she'll pull the plug on you if needs be to keep control.

There is also the freedom programme online.

The MIL probably has her pegged. You said she was at your house. Maybe that's a way in to the DH?

Nunyabiz, my friend has got an extremely strong personality and even if we leave the issue of her daughter aside, because she gets extremely angry (with her family) over silly things that really shouldn't matter, I do not find myself sympathizing with her. Had her husband walked with another woman then yes, I would understand her displeasure. But getting angry explosively when her husband is walking a few minutes away with his child? I cannot understand it. If it happens ALL the time then may be she does has a reason to complain...but still....

Make an appointment to meet the person with responsibility for Child Protection at the daughter's school. Print off the opening post and show it. Explain that you want to remain friends with the family, you think the daughter needs support but you can't just step in. Ask them if there is anything they can do, discreetly and gently. Schools are very experienced at this.
They can do a lot. The tutor can 'notice' that the child seems a little low, or that she is nervous before exams, and make her appointments with the school nurse and counsellor. If necessary, they can call in social services.
You friend might have serious mental health issues - my mother did and she behaved very much as you describe.
The mother's attitude to the daughter's relationship with her father might damage her for life, she needs proper help. My mother took the same approach because she had been sexually abused by her own father. A friend, in her twenties and successful in many ways, was treated like this by her mother, and now self-harms extensively and has been sectioned twice this year.

You have done well, to notice, to care, and to express the problem clearly. Go the next step and call in the professionals.

Think about what Iwill suggests. Perhaps couch it, 'I don't think this is a child protection issue, but I think you should be aware that 'child's mum' has exceedingly high expectations and I'm worried that 'child' is under a lot of pressure.'

IWillIfHeWill and Helpys, I will think about your suggestions but is that too drastic a action to take? What if I am wrong (and I will be glad if I am)? I do not want to create problems in another family, if none exist. I need to be a 100% sure before I can take such a step.

I think IWill's idea is good.