Please help, clarity needed around what to tell the dc and moving on...

[everonwardsagain]

Hi, I am hoping some of you lovely wise ladies can please help me to get some clarity and perspective over my situation and how to best handle it. And apologies, this is long!

Basically, my marriage has been rubbish for years, I have posted over the years and received very good advice, but hung on in there because I love him, and wanted my children to grow up with us all together. My dad died when I was young and I grew up in a difficult step-family and I don't want that for my children.

Every six months or so, I would reach breaking point, and say I'd had enough. DH would sob, promise to change and we'd carry on. Things would be better for a while, then slowly slip back. By nature I am a positive person, I try and see the good in everyone, I put everyone else before myself and I'm always one to help the under dog. However, I see that what I have done with my marriage is be overly optimistic, he hasn't changed, and I've allowed myself to be talked into extra chances because I feel sorry for him, and for my children.

I'll try not to make this long, but examples of his behaviour that I've put up with are:

• not talking to me, being my friend, taking any interest in my life at all really. If I try and talk, I have to follow him from room to room whilst he tidies up at a hundred miles an hour banging things around as he can't bear any mess - not that's it's ever that messy!! No matter how much I do in the house, it's never enough
• tons of what I know now to be called gaslighting. When I ask why he's not talking to me, he would say 'what on earth are you going on about? I'm just tired, not in a talky mood etc etc (even though I knew in my head he was ignoring me, for weeks at a time). Doing this thing where if he walked past me he would edge past me sideways rather than brush past me with his hands on my hips for example. Sounds crazy but sometimes he would edge past me affectionately (we live in an old house with narrow bits!) other times he would edge past me like I had a terrible disease. I knew he was doing this, but would always deny it.

-not being interested in sex for years, would do it now and again to please me. -shouting at our children and belittling them, calling them names, even though I have pleaded with him not to. One of our children has counselling for terrible self-esteem and OCD, he really hasn't helped with thi -heavily smoking when we really really can't afford it -not ever wanting to go out with me, moaning before we went to any event i.e. weddings, christenings, making it a chore to go and basically sucking the life and enjoyment out of everything -coming home in a foul mood because he hated his job and just being generally mean and moody with me and the kids -OCD with the housework to the point where I never relax in my own home -some acknowledgement of his issues but never ever doing anything about it -generally just being a very difficult and complex person who never listens, and prefers to sit on the ipad constantly rather than talk. sucks the life and enjoyment out of everything.

Anyway, almost two weeks ago, I had a light bulb moment. Enough is enough. I am not doing this anymore. I have now lived through the most emotionally draining, exhausting two weeks of my life. I am covered in the most horrendously itchy stress rash, I can't sleep and I can't eat. All we have talked about, constantly (though not in front of the children), is how sorry he is. In fact scrap that, I haven't talked, he has. On and on, through the night, waking me up to talk more etc etc. I have never seen him like this. He has admitted everything, all the gaslighting stuff that made me think I was going insane. Said he desperately wanted sex but would make out he didn't to me just to be an arse. Really ?!! A few weeks ago I had a job offer and didn't know what to do, he wouldn't support me in anyway and wouldn't talk to me, when I asked why he said because he felt like being difficult but he doesn't know why.

He has admitted that he has knowingly behaved like an arse for years and years but doesn't know why. He wants to go to counselling. He is a very mixed up individual. He had a crap up bringing with an extremely difficult and negative mum. His dad doesn't live here. He says he wants to be a better husband/father and by finally admitting everything he can start to be. He spent the first week begging for another chance but I have stayed resolute and said no. However, I'm concerned that this second week, he is beginning to talk about winning me back with all the changes he is going to make. I'm not sure I want him back, changed or not.

I feel so frustrated, he has been brilliant with the kids since this all kicked off and our house has been, believe it or not, calm and pleasant. I wasn't asking for much and what a difference it could have made!!!

He does say that he is really glad I am finally being strong as I deserve better and he needed this kick to finally sort himself out. He is promising the earth at the mo and this is the first time I sense a change, it is like the blinkers are off and I would say he has had some kind of breakdown and therefore breakthrough this past two weeks.

However, this past two weeks has barely been about me. He has barely left my side, constantly talking about him and I feel utterly drained and suffocated. He is going to move to his mum's tomorrow.

So, if you've managed to read this far, a massive thank you! My main bits I needed help with are these......

1. What to tell the children? He wants to tell them that he is going to live with nanny for a while to help look after her (she has been very poorly lately). He says this way if he does change, and I do give him another chance, it will be less confusing for them . My mum agrees with this also. This troubles me though, I don't like lying to my children. The older two are 12 and 9, youngest 5. Middle child has lots of issues, think he genuinely is trying to save this one in particular from more angst as he will be devastated. In my head the split is 90% final, so shouldn't we be more truthful? Can anyone point me in the direction of some links to read?

1. How do I handle him and his winning me back ideas? I am right to split, I know I am and at the moment I don't fancy him. The sad thing is underneath it all he is a good and decent person, it just got very buried a long time ago. He is a very hard working person, does lots of housework (tho due to OCD), runs the kids everywhere, looks after our elderly neighbour, his mum etc. BUT, has never put me first ever, never ever takes me out, acknowledges of all of this. If he changed, I just don't know if I'd want him back. I work bloody hard too and do my best to be a good mum and give my kids a good life but who looks after me and is there fore me? He has never really grown up. I've told him he has to change for him, and in order to be a better father.

1. Is it unreasonable of me to ask him to stop talking now about his feelings and about how he has messed up? I feel selfish putting this, but I'm sick of hearing how sorry he is and what an arse he is etc etc. I feel like my head is going to explode!!!

My RL friends say that I have given him more chances than he deserves by far but they also know him to be a decent guy (in public). They said they will support me whatever, but best friends have said to me over the years I have changed, lost my sparkle, he's ground me down. That's not fair is it? But, the thought of not having my children go on family holidays, sit together at the table every night, it absolutely kills me and I fear for the future, it's not what I planned.

If you have read this far I'm so thankful and will be grateful for any clarity you can give me, I feel so tired and done in I can't think straight.

Thank you .....

I got as far as the part where he belittles and frightens your children so much that they are exhibiting behavioural disorders.... Disgusting.

1. What to tell the children. Be honest. "Dad and I have decided to live apart so we're staying with Nanny for a while and then we'll be getting a nice new house. You can talk to Dad whenever you like and you'll be seeing him next on such and such a day'

1. How to handle him? Don't. Employ a solicitor, start the divorce and engage through them as much as possible. Any communication about the children keep brief and factual. This man is emotionally abusive and he will treat any contact opportunity to keep doing it.

1. Talking about his feelings.... See above.

I can't offer any advice I'm afraid but just wanted to let you know you are not alone. I could have written this myself going through exactly the same thing right now. He's packing some things to move to his dads tomorrow. I just hope that with some space on my own I will gain some perspective. It's so hard to know what is for the best for everyone and still be true to yourself. I also feel so sorry for my stbxp and sad for him but he had chance after chance to fix things and didn't.

Be kind to yourself and take care.

"They said they will support me whatever, but best friends have said to me over the years I have changed, lost my sparkle, he's ground me down. That's not fair is it? "

That is a pretty classic response to years of bullying I'm afraid. Your STBXH is a bully. Your children don't deserve to have to grow up with a bully and I think those tables you talk about, around which you all sit of an evening, will be more pleasant and calm places without him in one of the seats. It may not be what you envisaged but sometimes you have go with what's right rather than what's planned.

Firstly, well done for staying strong in front of his onslaught.

You don't need to be there to listen to him. Suggest that if he is serious about changing for himself then he goes to counselling and all those conversations that he is dumping on you, go to the counsellor instead. You're not his therapist. Make it a firm boundary and when he starts talking, stop him and say you're not best placed to help and he should maybe make a note so he can take it to the counsellor. Tell him that one of the things he can do to prove he has changed, is start respecting your boundaries.

What to tell the children is trickier because I get the feeling that regardless of what you say, he will tell the children his version and they'll be confused. I'm sorry that's absolutely no help at all.

You're grieving for the life you could have had but try to remember it wasn't real. It was a life that was all about him and that ground you down. No-one enters a marriage planning for it to breakdown so of course this isn't what you planned. However you probably did plan on giving your children stability (both practical and emotional) and an example of a healthy and happy relationship; you probably planned on being happy and giving the best of yourself to life. Those aims all remain and it sounds as though you know they will be best served by ending this relationship.

It doesn't sound as though he is going to make this easy for you. I'm sorry about that .

p.s. you might want to consider counselling to help you decide on strategies for managing the split.

Thank you Cogito, my inner voice knows you are absolutely right. I guess the optimist in me kept hoping for different. BUT, I have reached my limit and I do feel strong. I'm just gutted and surprised at how much he has admitted. He has acknowledged everything. Bringing up years worth of shit, do you remember when I did this? Do you remember when I ruined that holiday to x? He's admitted to being a bully. It's like he's had a real epiphany and I'm glad for him, but doesn't mean I have to still be a part of it.

It's sad because I do genuinely believe there is that decent kind person but underneath layers and layers of complexity. I just don't want to be on the end of it anymore.

I shall stick with going what's right. Thank you.

And littlebme, I'm so sorry to hear you're going through the same. I hope him moving out gives you the space you need, I can't wait for that bit. I can't keep listening to it. He's phoned twice already this morning from work to say sorry.. again...

Worried sick about telling the kids. Do you think we should tell them separately? My gut feeling is still to tell them the truth.

"He's admitted to being a bully"

He's trying to disarm you. It's like these seedy politicians who are caught doing drugs or shagging another intern, throw their hands up, admit to being flawed human beings and then try to make out that you should vote for them because they're honest... It's utter bollocks

There may be a decent kind person under there somewhere but the person he chooses to be is one that bullies not only you but also your children. Unforgiveable

BTW.... don't answer any more of his manipulative calls. Recordable communications only as far as possible from now on i.e. e-mail or text. There will come a point where he stops apologising, dries the crocodile tears and starts throwing his weight about. I'd be very confident that you're going to need a paper trail.

Aplace, thank you so much, didn't see your post before my last one. I have started this past two days saying 'no, that's enough now, I don't want to hear anymore'. He has said he wants to go to counselling and has asked me to help him find one as there is no computer at his mums and I had said that if you go through the GP you might not get any control over who you see.

I think he wants to lie to the children about why he's going to buy himself some time, in fact I know that's his plan, hoping that he will win me round. But, I think we should be truthful as I don't really think he CAN win me round. It hurts because already his best friend and my mum are feeling sorry for him because they can see how sad he is and how much weight he has lost, so I appear like the bad cop for staying firm.

But, I'm proud of myself for staying firm, it hasn't been easy but I cave now I'll hate myself. And he too has said I musn't cave, it wouldn't be the right thing as he needs to change regardless.

I think I will go for counselling if I can afford it, we are totally skint.... Thanks again

Wow...just wow!! To have lived through all of that and still find the strength to end it is fantastic!!

1 tell the truth and if he isn't going to then yiu need to tell them yourself before he gets a chance to undermine you. His idea is more manipulation and will only do you more harm

2 tell him to stop. If he wants you back genuinely then he needs to give you time and space and respect you

3 he is making it all about him - tell him that! Tell him you have feelings that matter too and he is ignoring them in favour of his own and continuing his old selfish ways

Good luck!!!

Thanks Cogito, he doesn't text or email!! We don't have any assets to split (long and boring story) and he has already said I can have whatever we've got. In that sense, I do believe he'd be fair. He's like a big kid, don't think he has the capability to get nasty where his kids welfare is concerned i.e. roof over their heads. I just need to get through this next chapter, ever the optimist, I hope he won't get nasty once the tears have stopped but yes, time will tell.

Another one going through the same atm. The split was a long time coming but ExP is having some sort of breakdown, promising the moon on a stick if I try again, asking me for emotional support as he's suffering. Same as in your situation it's all about him and how he feels... Same as ot ever was.

My stance on it is its just another permutation of the same shitty behaviour that made me stop loving him. I won't back down to emotional blackmail and neither should you.

We haven't told the kids yet either but they know something is up, in fact after the bust up this morning they probably heard way too much. In our case I was as good as a single mother anyway though so I don't think they're overly bothered, I'm happier when he's not here and by default so are they.

Stay strong, and keep posting... There are lots of us here who can empathise and support you. Don't give up on your own happiness any longer

Thank you wheresthelight. He wants us to tell the kids together, and I think one at a time as they're all different characters/ages. I'm just worried that he'll start crying as he doesn't seem able to stop (though has kept the tears from them so far). I have asked him to stop, and he then just keeps apologising. I also told him does he realise that my feelings have barely been acknowledged this last fortnight, and his response? Yet more apologies and tears!! Even woke me up to say he was so sorry he hasn't given me chance to talk. ARrrrghh!!! I am shattered!

Space is so needed, roll on tomorrow eve.....

SummerRain, sorry to hear you are going through similar. It is emotional blackmail isn't it? Even if he doesn't realise it. I think it's more the realisation that I've finally grown a pair that is prompting a lot of the tears. I've been manipulated for years. On the other hand he really is a big immature kid and not capable of conscious manipulation if that makes sense? Have you thought how and when you will tell your kids?

"he really is a big immature kid and not capable of conscious manipulation if that makes sense"

Ever been on the receiving end of a sly little kid trying to persuade you to do something they want and you don't?..... Of course it's conscious manipulation. Please don't make excuses for him any more because that will weaken your resolve.

I think Cogito is right.The fact he has been able to list all his awful behaviour would imply it was conscious. tbh, that level of awareness on his part was the most shocking part of your op, to me.

"I'm not sure I would want him back changed or not"

Absolutely nor would I particularly as you can bet with him it would be you doing most of the donkey work for these changes even if they came

Many of the things on your list resonated with me from my marriage none of which I miss. Once you have been away from this for a while with proper space you will wonder why you ever tolerated it.

Trust your own instincts in what you tell your DC when he moves out and start to enjoy the fact that whilst your DH is entitled to his opinion you don't have to agree or do as he wishes

Kids do know something is going on..Be honest...

A HV once told me that men like this do the minimum to get you back /keep you.

I wouldn't be surprised if this tack doesn't work he will change tactics to get what he wants.

I think once he is out the house your sparkle will come back

True. When he has woken me up many times in the past two weeks (again apologising for doing so, think I will scream when I hear the word sorry once more time....), it is usually because 'I have been sitting thinking and I've just thought about.... just realised that.... just remembered when....' He is acting like he has had a revelation and only just realised how shockingly awful and unkind his behaviour has been. He does say sometimes I knew I was being an arse, but just had this urge to press the self-destruct anyway. He is showing a remarkable awareness and full of remorse. Why oh why bloody do it in the first place then?! God I am so bloody frustrated with him!!! This place is a godsend in helping me not to crumble, thank you again ladies.

In your OP you said tears and promises had worked in the past for him when you looked like you had had enough

Now he senses the game is up and he so he is throwing everything he has at it and thinks by admitting to it all and promising change again he will succeed in once again persuading you to stay with him

At least you will have the satisfaction of knowing he knew all the shit things he did over the years whereas my XH would never have allowed himself to admit them and I declined to tell him before he left which I sort of regret

"He is showing a remarkable awareness and full of remorse."

There may be awareness but there is no remorse. Look at that little list of reasons for waking you up.... There are more 'I's' there than a branch of Specsavers!! It's all about him being narcissistically fascinated with himself and nothing whatsoever to do with being remorseful.

Definitely the throwing everything at it! He cannot apologise enough, I don't know if that is the same as being remorseful but I do believe he is sorry, and is full of remorse, because he knows full well I have never reacted in such a strong and resolute fashion. I am standing firm and he is totally thrown. I can do this!!!! He just phoned (yes, I answered, silly me) and was just checking (?!) we still plan to tell the kids tonight. I calmly answered yes, we are, and yes, the truth. He said sorry again and I said yes I know but I have to go and get on now. I will not crumble!!

Contrary to Elton's song 'Sorry' is often the easiest word. Take him on face value, voluntarily walk back into the cage, and this new self-aware version that he is presenting would vanish like a chocolate brownie at a fat farm.

Cogito - a big thank you, wise words and humour, just what I need!

Tips on telling the kids anyone? I'm worried that if we're not fairly clear in our minds he may go off track and then there's the risk of tears. I know about reinforcing it's not their fault, we love them lots, I don't know what the future holds so don't want to give them any false hope. Thanks again

You tell the kids that this a decision that has been made for the best and it's not something they can influence. You both have to appear content with the decision, even if you acknowledge that it is a sad one. The DCs will mostly want to know what changes will apply to them... school, house, friends. Avoid any discussion of being 'in love' or 'falling out'... just that the decision was a difficult one but that it has now been made.

Seriously, if you think he's going to go off track and start hanging onto your metaphorical ankles in front of them, sobbing and begging to be taken back, warn him in advance that any histrionics will not be tolerated and the conversation will stop right there.