shaking off the old dynamic with stbxh

[Handywoman]

So, almost a year ago, I kicked his miserable, moody arse out after struggling on for years (see here )

Eleven months on I still feel lighter, free, more fulfilled, less depressed, better in every single conceivable way. The kids are happy and well adjusted. Re contact he does the minimum and makes very little effort, lets things slide that shouldn't (can't be bothered to collect dd2's PJs for overnight stay etc - she has ASD) and I still need to beg for bare-minimum amounts of help at times like this weekend when dd2 had an operation. He thinks he is a loving, considerate and devoted dad.

He has shown he is still able to glare at me and huff and puff and be generally inadequate, passive, makes little effort to be proactive re the children's lives and 'woe is me' about his life, even though we are officially separated (finances now de-coupled, property deeds in my name). Basically he is the same just without the wedding ring.

My actual problem is that when he is being like this (the huffing and puffing and glaring) I find I still recoil and find myself freezing up and trying my best to avoid an angry reaction in him. This is compounded by the fact that the kids are present when these things happen (handovers). I also find myself doing things like making polite suggestions to help him rather than saying 'grow a pair and stop being a victim' when he moans to me about difficulties finding a flat (which he unnecessarily prevaricated over while I sorted out the finances and property issues). When this happens it's like I go into auto pilot and the appeasement happens even though inside my head I am thinking 'Handywoman, FGS stop DOING this!!!!!' I feel stuck in the rut of our old dynamic. I hate it, it makes me feel like nothing has changed re me and him.

I have started counselling and last week we discussed moving forward and finding a new way to respond in a more assertive way..... anyone managed to get out of the old dynamic and actually do this???????????? How do I go about it?????????? I really need to find a way to change this. I would really appreciate any hints for going about this.

Do you have to have physical contact with him? Can you just do doorstep handovers? Is there a relative you could leave the children with for handovers to take place at another house?

I already do doorstep handovers. He comes to the back door here (where the glaring and suchlike takes place). At his I pull up and text then he brings kids to car. My family live elsewhere so nowhere for 3rd party handovers. I think the kids would be unsettled by third party handovers.

OP I have no advice but will be reading with interest as he sounds scarily similar to my STBXH. Sigh. Hope someone will be along with hints and tips.

lol mines exactly the same. You'd swear it was me that had the affair by the attitude he projects towards me every time he see's me.

Considering I split from my ex 3 years ago you'd think he would have moved on by now but I don't think some people ever do.

Try not to get engaged in conversations and making suggestions. Just hand the kids over, tell them to have a nice day and go.

Hi op

The most irritating response to get his goat everytime is over the top nod smile and laugh ha ha ha am dram style.

Like your feeling oh so whimsical

Works a treat no dialogue needed special initiatives etc just oh my life's fab sorry yours isn't kind of eat shit response, but word free

It doesn't always work out like you think so you need to be aware of what you want to achieve.

You could graduate from Assertiveness 101 with an A* and behave in a perfect textbook fashion with your STBXH where you clearly state what you want in a firm but polite and reasonably friendly fashion. Instead of responding in suit, he may well kick off big time or disappear completely in a sulk.

Sometimes, discretion is the better of valour. With an X who is abusive or shows tendencies thereof, it can sometimes be better to play a slightly more passive aggressive role until everything is sorted out for good. Don't get into confrontations but don't agree to or do anything that you don't want to do. Sometimes that can achieve what you want post divorce too.

Personally, I took the assertiveness approach and a "good riddance" attitude when X disappeared for good, but that wouldn't work for everybody.

I don't want him to disappear completely. I want him to stop looking to me as the person who is responsible for, you know, life being difficult/complicated. And I need him to keep a relationship with the kids, for their sake. Plus for me, as I work EOW. I want to stop accommodating his shortcomings.

I really think that a slightly PA approach is best then. If, for example, if he is doing the "woe is me" bit, don't make helpful suggestions just keep repeating things like "Oh that's a shame." Eventually, you can hope that he stops looking to you to do things, although he may always use you as someone to blow off steam to.

Ultimately, though, I think unless you are prepared to stand up and confront (and therefore risk escalating things or having him sulk off into the sunset), you may have to accept this sort of relationship with him throughout your DC's childhood. There is no incentive for him to change.

As someone who's worn the T-shirt with the slogan "mother desperately trying to facilitate inadequate dad's relationship with DC" I'd ask you what you think your DC are getting out of the relationship with their father. The sort of man who would let his DC suffer (DD's PJs being a case in point) or would walk away rather than step up when challenged on poor behaviour, is not a great loving dad with much to offer. The more you pick up the pieces for his behaviour, the more you shelter your DC from the effects of it. That is, of course, exactly why you/I/lots of us do/have done that. Your perspective changes when you realise that all you're really doing is allowing your DC to build unrealistic expectations of their other parent - in some cases to such an extent that when he lets them down (and they always do) the consequences can be absolutely crushing. Far better to manage their expectations of the other parent as they really are - including completely absent if that's what the other parent wants.

I'm coming at this with my own situation and those of other single mothers I've known, so this is very much personal advice rather than fact, so I obviously don't feel you should do as I've done, I'm saying how it looks from my perspective.

Good luck.

Thanks, Pounding you are helping me formulate a way forward here...

I need to practise down-scaling my response from, "hmm, I wonder if you have thought of doing X" to something more like "oh that's a shame" or "that sounds difficult" thereby creating distance.

Not sure how I handle the inevitable situations where I will forget to tell him important things, in the process of shutting him out of my mind most of the time. e.g. I forgot to tell him the confirmed date of said operation for dd2 until a week before although I did tell him roughly when it was going to be and he never asked from them on. The reason for this is I try and run my life in a way that requires the bare minimum or no help from him. There will inevitably be more instances like that. He will continue to react as though I did it deliberately (wanker) and an apology will not suffice. I need to practice for the next time that happens.

Are you both reasonably IT savvy? Could you create a separate google calendar for DC-related things, for example? The onus would then be on you to put things into it (which will be useful for you anyway) and for him to check it (taking responsibility off you to 'remind' him). If he misses something then it is absolutely his fault IYSWIM.

Hi Pounding I did set up a shared calender on the www which I thought would be ideal so that he would be more informed about the childrens lives without me actually spoonfeeding him through the process (he never contacts them in between contact weekends EOW despite the eldest having a mobile phone and him living 5mins away). So I set it all up and put a week's worth of events on it. I sent him the link and asked for his opinion a couple of weeks ago. I heard nothing for two weeks, then I pressed him to reply this weekend he told me 'yeah, but you know I'm just not very good at calenders, and I couldn't find the link' (which is bollox because if he saw what was on the calender he absolutely did click on the link). After this he sort of sloped off out the door and went.

At this my heart just sank and I realized he just can't be arsed with anything that requires any effort: again, it's all me trying to find solutions and him being, well, a bit shit, and it generally being my fault.

Then he misses out. You've behaved more than reasonably. What you could do is give him a printout of said calendar once per month, but I really wouldn't go beyond that as you set a precedent.

Super I do this. By far the majority of info is passed via e-mail and text, I try to keep dialogue with him to an absolute minimum.

Then he misses out. You've behaved more than reasonably.

thanks, Pounding I need someone to remind me that actually it is him that is the problem and that there is a limit to what I should be doing to facilitate. I am always looking to myself for the answer to the difficulties. So hard to break the habits of 14 years marriage.

I've given up. The DCs have health concerns and loads of appointments, and STBXH just can't be arsed to care. I tried keeping him up to date with what was going on, but he wasn't interested enough to keep track of appointments or ask how they went. It is all very much a "he expects me to do everything" just like when we were together. And I DO everything. I just don't bother to tell him what's going on. And he hasn't bothered to ask. IF he ever asks, I'll tell him then. I doubt it will happen.

It IS hard to break the habit, but I'm not chasing after him to give him info he should be asking about. His problem, not mine. (still annoys me though)

You say you can't do third party handovers, but any chance of doing handover via collection/drop-off at school?

I also think you should stop beating yourself up about what you need to do to get the dynamic right. It's liberating to realise that it doesn't matter what way you behave - assertively, appeasingly, neutrally. He'll do what comes naturally to him whatever you do. It's not in your power to make him act like a grown man. See if you can survey his behaviour in a kind of detached anthropological way. Make private bets about what he'll say next - play Fuckwit Bingo.

You can't change what he does, so all you can do is find ways not to care about it too much.

I meant to add - when my exH is looking for drama, I find it's much more effective to look bored rather than to be assertive. It takes the wind out of his sails.

Thanks bibliomania that made me laugh... boredom : that's the one to go for, that will really frustrate him. Poor put-upon considerate soul that he is.

School drop offs/ pick ups aren't an option due his working hours.

My kids also have issues, especially dd2. He doesn't ask how anything is going, about school, parents' evening, anything. Not been in touch to see how she's been after her operation since seeing her briefly on Sat while my friends and family have been asking after her.

He seems to inhabit his own fantasy world where he is a hands-on, devoted, involved, loving Dad. Weird. It's a bit narcissistic tbh.

You would have thought that your marriage ending would change sonething in the way you go about things. But not in his case.

I think it is really hard to shake a relationship dynamic, and especially the feeling of being responsible for someone (I found this with my exH - we didn't have kids but every time I saw him, I felt as though I had a ton of pressure piled on me to keep him happy, just like when we were together). If you spent most of the time you were married "parenting" him as well as your children, and taking on all the grown-up stuff (like medical appointments, care of your kids and so on), it is difficult to stop doing that, especially because you have a big investment in him being a good dad.

It sounds like he is trying to keep pushing his responsibilities onto you - making sure he is a good parent (remembering pyjamas), finding a place to live and so on and it is always your "fault" if it goes wrong. His happiness isn't your job, and nor is his relationship with the children. It is hard if he is crap and they are upset but you can't solve that for them.

If it were me, I think I would find it helpful to treat it like a job share and be really business-like. I'd write down a "job description" for myself of the things I thought I should be doing (e.g. filling in a google calendar, providing XYZ at drop-offs and so on) and stick to it (maybe talk it through with your counsellor so you know you are happy with it). Then you can check back with it if ever you feel like you aren't doing enough or he is making you feel unreasonable.

Depending on what he is like, I'd probably show it to him and tell him he can either live with what you are suggesting, or come up with reasonable alternatives (like for the calendar - he is just as responsible as you for finding a way to communicate). I'd phrase it to him along the lines of "wanting him to have an independent relationship with the children", you "not wanting him to feel that you control the relationship" and stuff like that. He'll probably get upset and say you are being cold/a bitch/whatever, but it really doesn't matter. The objective is to reduce the amount of emotional space he takes up.