Anger issues - do I give up on the marriage? Advice needed

[TheNnYouRequestedIsAlreadyInUs]

Have nn changed for this.

Brief background. DH and I have a 3 YO DD. He rarely gets angry about things and loses his temper/shouts/used to throw or break something. Nothing physical has ever been near DD or I. He usually tends to find once it's out of his system he's fine again and it's like his release mechanism. I can't off hand think of instances where it's directed at me and I've never really felt any danger of physical harm. It's maybe about some DIY he can't do/something he's lost et and these bursts are short lived and rare. Although not physically harmed, I hate the way he behaves and it upsets me emotionally as I find his manner aggressive and angry. He is like a different person as he is generally quiet. I don't feel like I'm treading on eggshells trying not to make him angry all the time, but I do feel that I should avoid him when he is angry.

Since having DD and he was up in the night with her as a baby and very tired, there was a point where these got more frequent. I think the most frequent ever was 3 times in a week. There were a couple of instances where he really really shouting at DD 'just go to f*ing sleep' in a really loud scary aggressive way when she was too young to understand or listen anyway. This spurred me to think we had to do something about this. I don't want DD thinking this is acceptable behaviour and either growing up to behave like this or being in a relationship thinking this is the norm. DH after a discussion accepted he has a problem, but thinks I'm making a big deal over something relatively small given it's frequency. He grew up in an environment where this behaviour was acceptable.

When he does get cross, he HATES me mentioning it, and it makes things much worse. I feel I can't not mention it as my ignoring this behaviour I'm enforcing it's acceptable. I've tried different tacks like waiting until afterwards to try to discuss it, but it always gets him more worked up. So, yesterday he had 3 instances of not handling behaviour with DD very well and getting verbally aggressive (he says the same things I might do to discipline her, but his tone sounds very aggressive and he got really worked up about it) so instead of actually talking to him about it I left a book out for him to see which he had bought (OK, on my insistence to help with things, which I thought it had) about dealing with anger. My thoughts being it will show I don't think his behaviour is acceptable and guide him to rereading the book to help him be reminded of some strategies. I found the book put straight back in the bookcase and so picked him up on why I had got it out and he got annoyed at me mentioning it. This led on to him losing his temper and shouting and swearing at me about why I have to bring it up and I only make it worse by doing so and he'd be fine thank you very much if I hadn't bought it up. It ended out (I was very calm through all this) that I said if he genuinely felt this behaviour is acceptable and doesn't want to do anything about it then we have no marriage any more. I asked him to leave. He refused but said he would sleep downstairs. I said I couldn't be in the same house. I started getting clothes etc together to go to my Mums and was going to take DD with me (have to wake her up to do so) and then he said he would go to his parents. So, he went to his parents last night to sleep. He did say he was sorry and he knew his behaviour wasn't good but I think he still sees me making a big deal of this when he doesn't think there is a big deal and I'm not sure how willing he is to work on it.

He came back for his work stuff first thing this morning and left me a note saying 'sorry, we'll talk when I come home from work x'.

So, I'm not sure where to go from here. I think he certainly now thinks I'm serious about his behaviour being unacceptable given I've never actually said I'll leave him/the marriage is over. I feel I would owe it to him and DD and the relationship to give it another try but only on the basis that he would admit his behaviour is not right and he wants to work on it. Should I give conditions to things or will this all lead to resentment about it on his part and I should give up on the whole marriage? Anyone been in a similar situation or got any advice as to what I could do? Or ways in which I can explain it to him that this behaviour isn't acceptable (he just can't compute this and always puts it back on me)? Or am I being OTT and just put up with it? it's only a very small part of him.

Sorry for the essay, thanks for reading. Need to know in my head what tac I'm going to take by tea time...

I am not trying to wind up the OP. I take offence to that. I have read her post as her dh has a temper when his DIY project causes a blip or whatever and that dd gets intimidated when he disciplines her. These instances are rare and are not directed at the OP. she just doesn't like that he has them!

And OP please do not think that I am making light of your troubles. What bothers one person doesn't necessarily bother another and I understand that.

I don't think he is an abuser either!

I think you'll find the description of your opinion as 'clap-trap' is technically 'insulting' and not 'abusive'.

So your DH has asked you to explain his actions to your DD?

Gah, I wish I could write more on here OP!!! I shall PM you

3 instances of exploding and being verbally abusive and aggressive towards a small child, is not rare. 3 times per week is not rare either.

He has it all cut out for himself does he not? He gets to indulge in his aggression, and he gets to control you by refusing to discuss it, so he can step up the aggression if you do bring it up.

It is simple. He is refusing to see his behaviour is problematic. He is refusing to discuss his behaviour - in fact any attempts by you to address his behaviour is a go ahead for him to escalate it. I cannot see a way forward when this is the case.

quite the blips are sometime rare (ie it can be months between them) and sometimes more common (ie the worst week was 3 incidences a week). Yesterday he got angry 3 times - once when DD lost something of his which he should have let her have anyway, once when she wouldn't stay on the naughty step (this went on for a while until she did) and again when she wouldn't go to sleep. Then he went on to shout at me when I tried talking to him about it. It might happen because his computer won't work, or DD is doing something she shouldn't, or he's trying to do something which isn't working and this is his way of letting frustration out. They are not directed at me on the initial incidences, but if I mention it afterwards in any way he will get angry at me for daring to pick him up on it. He says he knows it's wrong and he doesn't need to be reminded of it. I can't say nothing though as that would be unfair to me to suck it up and not tell him it upset me. He refuses to talk about it at all really, so it'll be interesting to hear what he says. When I do try to talk to him about it it's always directed onto me. It's my problem because I'm the one that has an issue with it not him. It's my fault because he needs more time to himself, it's my fault because I need to look after DD when he does this or that or the other. Because of that I've tried to change and do things to stop it happening but it doesn't.

I hate the way he behaves and it upsets me emotionally as I find his manner aggressive and angry

I do feel that I should avoid him when he is angry.

There were a couple of instances where he really really shouting at DD 'just go to fing sleep' in a really loud scary aggressive way when she was too young to understand or listen anyway.*

DH after a discussion accepted he has a problem, but thinks I'm making a big deal over something relatively small given it's frequency. He grew up in an environment where this behaviour was acceptable.

When he does get cross, he HATES me mentioning it, and it makes things much worse.

So, yesterday he had 3 instances of not handling behaviour with DD very well and getting verbally aggressive (he says the same things I might do to discipline her, but his tone sounds very aggressive and he got really worked up about it)

losing his temper and shouting and swearing at me about why I have to bring it up and I only make it worse by doing so and he'd be fine thank you very much if I hadn't bought it up

Quitelikely - I think you could do with reading up on domestic abuse as well. Without being rude, it's obvious you don't know much about it.

Agree Quint - these incidences are far from rare. They are regular and becoming frequent.

When I do try to talk to him about it it's always directed onto me. It's my problem because I'm the one that has an issue with it not him. It's my fault because he needs more time to himself, it's my fault because I need to look after DD when he does this or that or the other. Because of that I've tried to change and do things to stop it happening but it doesn't.

OP I'm sorry, it sounds very hard. You must see that you are very much walking on eggshells, despite your claim to the contrary.
This is how it happens, and how women end up blaming themselves for the poor treatment they receive, and accept it as their normality. It's a drip drip drip effect, quite unlike anything you'll see on Eastenders.

It is also very common for abusive behaviours to escalate with the arrival of a baby. Men like this hate not being top priority any more and resent the intrusion on their status and lifestyle. This in turn fuels a desire to exert more control over their spouse, to keep the focus where they think it should be - on them and their needs.
If they have to force the issue through displays of aggression, so be it.

I do not know if this is domestic abuse, but it is clear that this passive aggressive angriness is indeed affecting you both. I remember once before I was in a similar situation with some GFs, and it "suddenly" become a case of them picking on me, and I had no idea, and I get very defensive, and therefore actually quite angry and aggressive.

I think you need to stand back and see it objectively as well. His behaviour is indeed not on, which even I would agree with you there. But it seems to me that the more you pick on the sore spot that he has, the more it still hurts and it will be raw. I would get him a man cave, somewhere where sometimes he can calm down, and if something frustrates him, or does not need doing, then divert his attention and just ask him to drop that something cos it is making him more angry. He needs to learn to balance his life, and with priorities on what needs to be done and what does not.

On the note about babies. I think not all men knows how to handle child rearing, maybe you can lead him there. For example, in the above example of putting the child on the naughty step. Does he know why it works for you and why it does not work for him ? I sometimes see my brother-in-law not knowing why something works, but he just literally mimic what I do, or what my sister does with my nephew. The good thing on his side is that he sometimes sits and watches a scenario and then knows what to do next. He never asks either, but he assess and then next time he goes and do this same action that someone had done before to bring him the best solution. I wonder if your husband has found a coping mechanism and strategy yet. If he has not, then sometimes just give him hints. I normally say out loud in a baby voice to my nephew re-interating what I was doing for him, and I think my brother-in-law also picks up on this.

My sister and my brother-in-law has a "baby book" which I think dampen and calm things a bit and reduces the chaos because it allows my BIL to future plan. (He is a future forward looking person.) Whereas my sister likes to do the things "now" that requires doing. Their personalities are very different but this is why they can work well, because they had time to adjust to this combination. You have to ask yourself if you can work with your husband, or if you cannot and want a different kind of partner.

Everybody has a different coping mechanism, and need "me" times. I normally walk away and I go and brew til I can figure out what is happening, before coming back to deal with something. Sometimes the closer you are with someone, then the flaws can be magnified 10 folds.

"He refuses to talk about it at all really, so it'll be interesting to hear what he says. When I do try to talk to him about it it's always directed onto me. It's my problem because I'm the one that has an issue with it not him. It's my fault because he needs more time to himself, it's my fault because I need to look after DD when he does this or that or the other. Because of that I've tried to change and do things to stop it happening but it doesn't".

This is all about power and control; he wants absolute within your home.

With regards to your first sentence he will still not say anything. The rest of how you describe him is precisely how an abuser operates. They never apologise nor take any responsibility for their actions.

Denial is a powerful force and no-one wishes that they had actually married an abusive man but your reactions to him are all those of an abused woman and you are acting accordingly to try and appease him. Changing your behaviours never works either because these men keep moving the goalposts.

Would you want your DD to end up with a man in her own adult relationship similar in nature to her Dad?. What you are teaching her currently is that this currently is acceptable to you. This is one of many damaging lessons being imparted to her by both of you here.

Abusers as well are not horrible all the time but this cycle of nice/nasty is a continuous one.

I would also suggest you read this about loving an angry person as well because it may well also open your eyes.

www.angriesout.com/family2.htm

TheNnYou By the way, this is NOT your fault. Just remember that your hubby is reacting to the fact that you pointed it out to him, but the fact that he still does it, is absolutely his responsibility. He may or may not be able to find a solution, but ask him what methods can be better. i.e. if he cannot cope or is about to lose it, then you step in and take control of the situation and carry the baby to sleep or other. Let him know, and let him release his frustration or for you to nip it in the bud. His own challenge is does he know what creates the angriness to begin with. Is it because he is not prepared on dealing with that situation. Would it help if he had a few tricks up his sleeve to deal with the child. e.g. if the naughty step does not work, can he use another method instead ? i.e. distraction or diversion of the child's attention ? He also has to learn to work "with" the child and not "against". So for example even when he tries to get the baby to sleep, does he realised what was the baby reacting to which made her sleep ? Is it the music, or it is the rocking motion. Is it the cuddling, or a certain angle that she is sleeping in. He has to find these tips and tricks which is affecting the child and to continually do it.

Will it also help him to know that babies also have personalities and preferences? Maybe if he can learn this then he is armed with better information and can be more prepared etc.

maise he has a mancave! The final incident where I actually said that was it, if there was no change that was it for us, was 45 mins after his outburst. He went off by himself saying he needed to do a few bits, and left it as late as he could to say goodnight to be because he knew I would want to talk about it. It was only then after having that time to cool off that he lost it again, just being incapable to talk about it at all. I'm unsure as to whether I should be expected to just not mention it and ignore it or what but it feels right to not let it go unmentioned or finished.

I found this online about emotional abuse:

Minimizing is a less extreme form of denial. When minimizing, the abuser may not deny that a particular event occurred, but they question the recipient’s emotional experience or reaction to an event. Statements such as “You’re too sensitive,” “You’re exaggerating,” or “You’re blowing this out of proportion” all suggest that the recipient’s emotions and perceptions are faulty and not to be trusted.

This is definitely what he does.

It's funny though when you all talk about power and control it just doesn't sound like him at all. I don't think it's about that with him, I think it's just he can't deal with emotions and has to let them out and this is the only way he knows how. I'm not saying it's right but I think that's what it's about rather than a power game with me.

I should add, the bit that also concerns me after the discussion between us last night and in general after outbursts is that it's all my fault because I bring it up. If I would just let it lie and not mention it it would be fine but I make things worse by daring to mention it (this is what he says, well, he doesn't use the words daring to mention it though). When he was calm afterward I asked him what am I suppose to do, because not mentioning it I'm accepting the behaviour. He accepted this and couldn't come to a conclusion but it's just a little scary how it all escalates when I pick him up on it (even after the outburst has finished) and why he refuses to talk about it. Why does he always refuse to talk about it and just the thought of talking about it make him so angry? I feel like this is all negative when this is such a tiny part of our life together. I'm really scared about out talk tonight and I have no idea what will happen.

I have been in an identical situation.

I think you need to discuss with your DH what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. Especially in relation to the upbringing of your DD as she will learn and mimic his aggression and think that this is an acceptable way of how to deal with emotions that get out of control.

You need to offer your DH support, it is not nice to see someone angry, but it's also not nice to ever get that angry. Tell him the many different ways to get help (online information, books, gp, counselling, cbt therapy, moving out) and get him to decide himself what will be the best course of action for him.

My DH needed to be shown a way to release his anger rather than shouting, and now when he is about to blow his top, he just walks out the room and comes back when he is calm, and I let him take as long as that needs, be it 10 seconds or 10 minutes. I would rather I have to step in with the mess of the situation he leaves behind, then subject my DC to his wrath.

There is a way out the other side, but it took about a year of "serious conversations" before he finally agreed to do something about it, and now he is a perfect husband.

Good luck tonight, and stand your ground about what you believe is an acceptable way to behave in front of the whole family and what is not.

Well, first of all, you should not "be" scared of your own husband. There should be trust. Security. Even though he has a bit of a temper, ask him, or to figure out together, what was the cause of the trigger to begin with.

My question to you is that, why are you scared about the chat tonight? What do you think will happen, and do you want that something to happen? i.e. do you think that you guys will suggest divorce? Is that what you do want or not ?

Why does he always refuse to talk about it and just the thought of talking about it make him so angry?

Basically he is hiding from you because he doesn't want you to point out the obvious character trait of his, (which is seen as a negative in the context of the child rearing and not a positive one) and he thinks that you may also say and state the worst. i.e this is over. Avoidance is just that. Avoiding the worst case scenario.

Sometimes when you live so close with somebody, you do not expect all or part of your personality to be picked up on, criticised, or scrutinised at all. We all want to be useful and helpful people to our partners and to our family and friends. The question is whether he can forgive you for pointing this out (if he can, then he won't be defensive), if he can't, then he will fight you. It actually takes a lot to accept, and to also acknowledge our own traits good or bad. This takes time. It is also a learning and a growing process as well.

To me, I avoided the people who pointed certain things out, and if it is something that I also agree I had to do, then I tolerate that specific criticism, or I had to think whether it is fair. But I do not always recognise when something is or said in a bad manner to me. I had to go away and reflect on this.

I really think you should only ask him what he has to say, and decide what to do from there. (not necessarily there and then, you could take your time to think about it)
The time for you to talk to him has ended. He has to be responsible for his behaviour.

"It's funny though when you all talk about power and control it just doesn't sound like him at all. "

Power and control can manifest as manipulation. It may not always be strictly conscious. Very selfish people, for example, can develop certain manipulative techniques over a lifetime to ensure they always get what they want and use them almost without thinking, not distinguishing between partners, family, workmates, strangers. It's their default setting. However, when it comes to angry/aggressive/intimidating behaviour and bullying (emotional and physical) it is more likely to be a conscious choice based on who they are talking to. Case in point.

Why does he always refuse to talk about it and just the thought of talking about it make him so angry?

Because he regards you as inferior and therefore someone who must never challenge him.

cogito I'd say I'm more selfish and manipulative than he is tbh though. He is pretty laid back and easy going (bar aggressive outbursts which are rare). I still believe it's not a power thing it's just an inability to manage and deal with emotions and frustration.

Do you feel you can say and do anything you like when with your partner? Are there any 'no go areas' for conversation? Do you ever delay raising an issue or find yourself working out in advance quite how best to phrase it?

I can't think of anything cogito . Maybe I think about how I word things to do with MIL. Not because I think he will get angry but because that's a delicate issue between us. I think talking to him about his anger during or soon after an anger outburst is always difficult/I worry about how to deal with it. That's it really though. I assume he responds in the way he does because he knows he shouldn't behave like this and feels guilty/doesn't want to think or be reminded about it, or he's trying to think there isn't a problem.

Meant to say stuffedowl it's nice to hear couples can get through this.

Maise I guess I'm scared if things go back to how they were it will keep happening and I'll be in an unhappy relationship or else if we separate I'll be on my own as a LP.

He is home but we can't chat yet as DD is around and it's not something we can do with her around. Will act like all normal until she's asleep.

again for your help and support and comments to help me see straight.

Yuck. What a crappy situation. Please stick to your guns on this, you really don't want your daughter to grow up with someone like this. My husband and I both grew up around an explosive parent. I came out of it with an anxiety disorder and he came out with anger issues of his own (which he resolved before we ever met). It's incredibly stressful to have that sort of home environment and you don't want your child to be guessing when her father is going to explode out of the blue like that. Don't put her through that.

I'd ask him to think about his home life growing up, does he want that for his daughter?

Dh used to have that kind of behaviour every so often. It bothered me not a jot, as I was very much the same. In fact I rather enjoyed the occasional really good flaming row.

Then I had ds1 and all of a sudden I was no longer OK with it. I could see the impact it had on him, and I felt much more vulnerable with a baby and did not want to be exposed to what I experienced as aggression.

I told dh I was no longer OK with it, and I wanted him to stop.

So dh stopped. He had a couple of relapses, and we gradually worked on a way that I could tell him he was going off on one without escalating things into a row, but he now rarely so much as raises his voice at all.

The key is that he really wanted to. Because ultimately, he wanted to be the man I wanted him to be, so if I was able to formulate it clearly and express it coherently he was going to be willing to try his best. Of course he is human and gets it wrong sometimes, but he is willing to listen to me when I tell him what I think is going wrong (even if he doesn't always agree) and he wants to try and get it right for the dc.

Your dh has a habit. It is a bad one. He needs to replace it with another coping mechanism. In dh's case, it often involves exercise - when he is frustrated and angry he will have a really intensive workout and come back sweet as a lamb. Your dh needs to find his own thing, but in order to do so he needs to learn to recognise the early signs that he is going into that 'place' so he can stop before he is in a bad mental state.