I have a problem, my friend hates my dh

[TiramiSue]

My good friend, call her jenny, arrived up to my house last night. I wasn't expecting her and was on my way out with the kids but told her to stay for a few mins anyway as I hadn't seen her since Xmas (she had been acting quite funny with me I thought) avoiding me, going out with mutual friends and not asking me along and stuff like that, I was beginning to think I had done something to her.

Anyway she broke down in tears and said she didn't want a rift between us but that she was fed up with my dh, that he had really pissed her off before Xmas and she hadn't felt that she could bear to see him ( and therefore me too) because of this.

There is a bit of a back story here. My friend is married to my dh's cousin. Cousin is a bit of an asshole at times, hasn't treated jenny very well, not abuse or anything just really selfish toward her, she suffers from a serious chronic health condition and Ivf has failed for them and throughout he has been totally self absorbed. My dh has spoken to jennys husband a few times as they are nearly as close as brothers and he can be very blunt with him and has told him to wise up and treat jenny better.

The thing is, the cousin, call him john is a farmer and has a small business. He has consistently ignored all advice and help offered to him a and has run his business into the ground and is in debt to loads of people. One of those people is my dh who has sold him animal health products over the years. He owes my dh in or around 15k and this figure has largely remained around these for about ten years, because he is family and my dh grew up with John and they are close, he has always given john a lot ol leeway, taking small payments now and again against the debt, but never actually getTing paid in full. My dh feels that John has really taken advantage of this and this is one example of johns selfishness.

My dh recently was approached by a large company who wanted to buy him out. He was delighted as the business has been very tough fro him in currency economic climate and he was happy to get out. He had to try and get all his outstanding accounts settled before a the transfer so he had to go and see john before Xmas and ask him to at least make some payment toward the debt, and try and start paying off small amount more regularity as this company wanted as clean a slate as possible taking over.

I think this is what has annoyed jenny although she won't quite admit it . She won't confront him, or tell him, or me what it is he has done, and I feel this is very unfair as my dh should be given a chance to redeem this or apologise if he has been out of order. She seems to think this should not affect our friendship, but it does, it already had, and I feel she is asking me to be her friend and hang out with her regardless of how she feels towards my dh or hw she acts toward him which is to ignore him really.

Sorry this is so long. I am not sure what to do or how to handle this but I feel that she is being unfair to both of us.

Please make sure the debt isn't added to, though!

I will make sure of that plusca

After all this crap, I do not understand why you want to give these people any more room in your lives. They are vampires, emotionally and financially.

Sod this so-called friend. She's no friend. If this was me I'd be deciding enough was enough, discussing with your DH that the time has come, cousin or not, to put some formal means of getting the debt repaid (if necessary taking them to court, because I doubt you're going to see it if you don't) and then having nothing more to do with them.

NotNew i agree with you, problem is, John is family, (as far as dh concerned, he is like a brother to dh, - except dh's brothers would never behave like this as they have some integrity) Dh, just like his dad, feels sorry for John, and hence gives him so much leeway.

Dh will never go to court against John, he couldn't do it, wouldn't do it. I am stuck between them. I know that john doesn't pay anyone properly, not just my dh, though he only gets away with the high levels of debt to dh, john has stiffed many other suppliers/contractors around the county.

Yet dh and john still get along, as there is genuine affection there, but my friend gets on her high horse about my dh going to ask for some of the debt to be paid off, under huge pressure and out of sheer necessity, and she has the cheek to take offence at his tone, or the fact of his going round to their house in the first place.

Most other folk would have issued letter of demand, then gone for enforcement proceedings, dh tried to do the decent thing, and yet she still gets offended.

She wasn't really offended. She was stropping to try to pressure you.

pluCa i actually really believe that she is genuinely offended, because her thinking has become so distorted after living with John for so long, that she cannot see things for what they are, do you know what i mean? I mean, i have known her for 30 odd years, ten years ago, she would have never ever behaved like this, or supported johns behaviour, yet now, not only does she support it, she gets genuinely aggrieved when his behaviour results in reasonable and foreseeable consequences. Honestly, i do not think she is trying to be devious or manipulative, i think that she has become as self absorbed as he is and they operate in their own bubble whereby the normal perimeters of behaviour do not apply to them.

Mmm, I've been lurking here. I sympathise with you for the unpaid debt and the stroppy friend, but I think you might be better just letting it go. It is frustrating and irritating I know, my BIL borrowed 2000 pounds from my fifteen years ago and has never made any effort to pay it back. It still rankles but in the end he has been very kind to my daughter and I often have to see him in social situations where otherwise we get on well. I just feel that when it is family and when you live in a small community it is not that convenient to fall out with people.

Oh, dear. Well, even if she is genuinely offended, that doesn't mean what your DH did was genuinely offensive.

Anyway, people are often most angry when they are wrong.

Yes i think so PlusCa she is more defensive because deep down she knows they are in the wrong.

Mexican it is very hard, we do live in a small community and all see each other at friends gatherings as well as family dos.

But jeez, its 12k he owes us at the moment - we have 5 kids, there is a lot we could do with that. I know i have to let it go, in the sense that i have to realise we may never, probably ever see that money paid back.

But after 30 years of friendship, i know feel i have lost a friend too, in that whilst i will always be civil etc at get togethers, our friendship is no more, i don't want anything to do with her.

Do you realise you're angry at your husband? The 12k he chose to give to john knowing full well he'd never see it back rather than spending it on his 5 children.

Because John has been very predictable in his actions and your husband knew (from how he behaved with his father before him) that he was not going to see that money again.

You are seriously pissed off about the money your husband essentially have to his cousin without your input.

Because none of this would happen if he simply refused to let debt accumulate after 1st time. Like any normal, healthy business.

Have = gave (fat fingers)

What is your DH going to do, for income, now that he's sold the business? Presumably he won't be able to compete with his old company, so will no longer be able to fool himself that "helping" with goods/ in kind isn't the same as giving money. Would he give actual money? What other "veins" has DH got, that John could open?

(By the way, having FIVE chilsren is a hell of a drip-feed! I can't understand how your H felt ok letting that sirt of debt build up, even letting his company take the strain! Incidentally, are any if your children 8/9 yet? If he felt sorry for John, losing his father at that age, could he he brought to feel protective of his own child, for the family losing writing off 12K?)

PlusCa sorry i didn't mean to drip feed, yes, we have 5 kids, but my dh also has a chemist shop (is a chemist by profession) so we are not on the breadline or anything, but i am a SAHM, so 12k is a hell of a lot of money to us, as it is to most people i would imagine.

I think that Jinglets is right actually in that i am also annoyed at my dh (never realised this until pointed out to me) for letting john run up his debt to this extent, although i know my dh did it with the best of intentions. I can't say that by doing so dh has put us into hardship because that wouldn't at all be true, we are comfortably off, i budget well and we live within our means.

But i think i am going to have to have a frank discussion with dh as to what is going to happen about this money if it remains outstanding, and point out to him, that whilst he may be big enough to overlook it, i will find it near impossible to remain on friendly terms with this pair if the situation persists..

OP, you first wrote...(Your husband) ...." had to try and get all his outstanding accounts settled before the transfer so he had to go and see john before Xmas and ask him to at least make some payment toward the debt, and try and start paying off small amount more regularity as this company wanted as clean a slate as possible taking over."

Then you wrote "The business has already been sold, john now owes the money to my dh as a personal debt ."

I understand you may wish to change details to keep anonymity, but frankly it doesn't matter if the debt took 10 years or 1 year.... what matters is that your husband had a number of options to recoup that debt, by selling it on, negotiating with the purchaser, etc.

He CHOSE to instead transfer it to a PERSONAL DEBT. I'm not a solicitor, but doesn't that mean by marriage, John owes YOU this money too?

Where were you in that decision?

Even if you're "not on the breadline", don't let middle-class guilt make you overlook this degree of sponging, shitty attitude (constant sexist and rude remarks from John, it sounds like, and now selfishness from Jenny), and the fact that this generation's children need a lot more money from their parrnts to get the same things as their parents had "free"/government subsidised (e.g. education) or miles cheaper (e.g. housing, transport).

I agree with everything Jinglets has said on this thread. And i am sorry but I am willing to bet you will never see that money again. I would forget about this blood-sucking pair of 'friends' and instead start getting angry with your husband that he would rather have his useless cousin have money that should by rights be your kids' university fund / first car / holidays. Without consulting you.

My first impression was that Jenny was jealous of you, TSue. I thought she might be trying to interfere in your relationship because a lot seems to be going well for you and she is pained by comparing herself to you. If that is part of this there is nothing you can do to help her...just protect your marriage..so I am glad you said you have decided the friendship has run its course.

Imho, John and Jenny are using your good manners and (relative) politeness against you. They are essentially shaming you into "forgetting" about the debt. Pure manipulation. Your dh had the balls to actually ask for the money (which he should never have been put in the position of having to ask). J&J felt the shame, as well they should. They can dish it out, but not take it.

Jenny's outburst was to punish you because your dh dared to cross that unspoken boundary. All for John, John for John.

If I were you I would not let it drop. JingleJangle and pluCaChange are right. She is bothered by snide comments: green light go. Mention that she owes you every time you see her.

And your dh really isn't that great at business or you would not have this problem. John is an adult now, your dh needs to stop feeling guilty that John's dad died and your dh' s did not (while he was young). Maybe your dh would benefit from some counselling.

jinglets i don't think i have changed any facts:

Before Xmas, the debt was around 15k. Dh went around to them and explained they had to deal with this debt as he had been approached to sell the business and the prospective buyers didn't like the look of johns debt to the company they were about to buy.

John paid 3k to dh just after Xmas. At end jan/start feb the company was sold, (my dh having agreed with the buyer to take on Johns debt himself and it was taken off the books) So the sale of the business did go through. John did pay a bit off, the 3k, as he does from time to time, and he now owes dh 12k. When or how much john pays of that to dh is anyones guess. In the meantime, johns wife, (my one time good friend) has taken massive umbrage at my dh's approaching them for the money, choosing to believe that it was my dh trying to "humiliate" them.

PlusCa i agree with all you say, and it i discuss this with dh then he will insist that he believes john will pay this off, eventually. I doubt it though. Its not just about the money now though, its more about the way that they have behaved around it.

Andtheband interesting points there, i never thought of it that way, and yes, i think my dh needs some outside input from someone else to talk him through all this, as i am too close, (and too angry) to make him see things rationally.

Have you ever read anything about transactional analysis? It sounds very much like you and your DH are taking the parent roles and your friend and her DH are the children. I think if you read something up about it you might get some insight into how to change the dynamic of your friendship. As "parents" you are spending a lot of energy saving them, whilst in return they don't take any responsibility and offload their anger and problems onto you. What you want to do is change your behaviour and equalise your relationship so that you are treating them like adults (which should encourage them to respond to you in a similarly adult fashion).

Thanks Phantom i will definitely check that out, it sounds very familiar