Are there levels of toxicity for family?

[InLawsQuestion]

NC for this in case any of my in laws on are on MN.

I've been spending a lot of time lurking around the relationship board lately and also the stately homes thread and it's been making me think a lot about my in laws. I didn't see an awful lot of them until me and my now DH started getting serious but as soon as that happened I started to feel really uneasy about them and the way they treated DH and eventually me. I just thought they were nasty people and tried not to let it get to me because DH couldn't see how horrible they were and I didn't want it to cause problems between us. But as the years went by and the way they behaved DH has realised how awful they are.

But I've always felt bad about disliking them and perhaps it's me? And am I the evil witch DIL who has drive a wedge between my DH and his family?

It's very long and boring so I thought I'd choose some examples:

• DH says his mum went mental when he moved 40 minutes away from home for university and since then has always refused to come over to visit if she can
• when DH's nana died, they deliberately didn't ask him to be a pallbearerer and he was gutted. He didn't say anything but when it was brought up in conversation they acted like he was being a drama queen for getting upset about it and then when DH actually calmly pointed out how hurt he was, MIL made a massive drama, crying and getting SIL to call DH because she was just 'so upset over the whole thing'
• they don't like me because we have a very modern marriage where we are partners and are equal, they don't like the fact I refuse to be the Little Wife
• FIL often makes comments about how ugly/fat/scruffy DH is
• they often make disparaging comments about DH's career, they clearly think his job is beneath him
• they've flung money and everything else at SIL, bought her a car, helped her buy a house etc but have never ever offered to help DH.

-SIL constantly demands money and childcare from them. When DH asked MIL if they could possibly look after DD one day so I could spend time with my dying mother, they refused as they said it would be too inconvienient.

• we never ask them to look after DD (who is 3) unless we are really REALLY desperate. When I was very ill last year (and was subsequently hospitalised) we asked them if they could take DD for a couple of hours, they refused to help out.
• they agreed to drive us home from the hospital when DD was born (I'd had an EMCS so couldn't drive) and DH at the time couldn't drive, FIL kept driving too fast over potholes and bumps in the road. It was agony on my poor stomach. When I asked (nicely) if he could slow down he laughed at me and deliberately drove faster. DH actually stood up for me (as I was actually crying with the pain) and MIL shouted at him for being so disrespectful.
• when my nan died, MIL didn't even say anything even when she saw I was upset
• I've been hospitalised a lot over the past couple of years, they haven't bothered to visit or ask how I am
• my mum died nearly 2 years ago of cancer. Throughout it all they've never bothered to offer any physical or emotional support. I had serious PND after mum died and tbh it was exacerbated by their behaviour. I always say to DH if I had a DIL who's mum died at a young age and when she was a young mum herself, I would do everything I could to support her. I would call her/text her/visit her, be there for her as much as I could (within reason of course, I wouldn't want to be in DILs face if it made it worse). I was clearly suffering with the loss of my mum but they just clearly didn't give a shit. Nor did they want to support DH who was struggling to cope with his grieving depressed wife.
• they constantly made snotty comments about children who are put in childcare (DD is in nursery and loves it) and how they are all stupid and dragged up but how clever DNiece7 and Dnephew2 are because my MIL looks after them exclusively. DD is really clever and has thrived at nursery, I don't regret ever putting her in there. But when I was all emotional about putting her in nursery at first and with my untreated PND I found their comments very hard to hear.
• MIL once made a comment that 'DD was doing really well considering...' when I asked her (nicely, I'm never not nice to her) what she meant she was like 'oh you know because she has to go to nursery and you work full time and all the upheaval she has to put up with'. Probably sounds totally innocent but the tone she said it in was clearly not.

This thread is too long now so I'll stop it. What I've said probably doesn't sound bad. But it's been hard over the years to watch DH slowly realise his parents don't give a shit about him. The worst bit he has found is the way they treated DD at the start. When we announced our pregnancy, SIL immediately said 'well I'm going to get pregnant now as well because InLawsQuestion is'. Again sounds nothing but the tone she said it in was very competitive. I wasn't bothered I was so happy to be pregnant but I've come to realise SIL didn't want us to get any attention from the in laws for being pregnant and threw many strops if she felt she wasn't getting the attention she deserved from MIL. When I was lying in the hospital bed destroyed after my labour and EMCS and we had all the visitors, SIL refused to look at DD and kept trying to talk to everyone about her pregnancy and got in a strop because people wanted to coo over my daughter.

MIL happily went along with this at first and treated my DD as a second class grandchild. Barely bothered to visit and when she did made disparaging comments about how we parented. She's changed her tune now and adores DD but it's left a bitter taste in our mouths how she was when she was first born.

I'll shut up now. Sorry for the rant.

Oh and they've both retired and have plenty of money. I wasn't expecting them to take a day off work or anything to help out with DD.

My dad on the other hand is an amazing grandfather. He adores my DD and constantly volunteers to help. I don't like to ask him too often because I don't want to put any pressure on him. We never go out or have any time together DH and I because we'd rather spend our time with DD as a family. But in an emergency (such as me being in hospital) sometimes we have to ask for help.

I just don't want to seem like I expect constant help and childminding IYSWIM?

'What I've said probably doesn't sound bad'

InLaws, what you're written sounds awful. Your ILs sound highly toxic, emotionally abusive, cruel, nasty and downright horrendous. This is not normal behaviour and you and DH don't have to put up with it.

I can relate to some of what you wrote, like your DH's mum going mental because he moved away from home. My own parents are highly toxic and still treat me like a child at the age of 34. They are still furious with me for moving away, having my own life, making my own decisions, choosing my own partner etc. They will never change. Like your ILs, they had done a really great job of convincing me that my feelings didn't count and I was well trained to always consider their needs before my own. 4 years and counting in psychotherapy and I'm realising how extremely abusive this kind of behaviour is.

The short answer is: it's not you, it's them! And you don't have to put up with it just because they're family.

Yep. Toxic through and through.

F*cking hell. Excuse me for the strong reaction but I stopped reading after line number 5 in the list of things they have done. It's so awful.

The thing, your DH is so used to it and can't fathom what's healthy or not. There are differing levels of toxicity at play here. Detach completely. Don't get involved. It's not healthy and leave them to it. And no, you are not being unreasonable to have rant at all!

lottapianos that's struck a chord with me. DH often says he was never allowed to put his feelings before anyone else and he just went along with things for a quiet life and because he never knew anything different.

I think I may have to get those books that people recommend, isn't there a Toxic In laws one by Susan foreward as well as a Toxic parent one?

'What I've said probably doesn't sound bad'

InLaws, what you're written sounds awful. Your ILs sound highly toxic, emotionally abusive, cruel, nasty and downright horrendous. This is not normal behaviour and you and DH don't have to put up with it.

This from Lotta as I read down the list it got worse and worse. The drive home from hospital is awful, that is deliberately hurting someone and then laughing about it.

The question now is, what do you want to do about it?

cookiedoughkid I try to do that these days, just detach as much as I can. NC would never be an option unfortunately so I need to learn the best way of dealing with it for DH and DD's sake.

It used to cause a lot of problems with DH and I. I was so frustrated that he couldn't see how crazy they were and he obviously was very defensive because they are his family and it's what he has always know. To his credit DH now can see their true colours and we are a united team against them. If they cause problems or say anything bad we just are polite and avoid confrontation, we try to make our position clear in a nice way.

For example, we were over there last week to see DH's uncle who we haven't seen for years as he lives abroad, Uncle kept going on about what a wonderful Nana MIL is for looking after DNeice and DNephew and how pathetic nurseries are (he soon stopped when I informed him that DD is in nursery and is doing really well) . He actually used the term 'grandmother of the year'.

Anyway so they were wanting to go to the takeaway (even though they know DH and I are trying to be healthy due to my ongoing health problems) and they were pushing and PUSHING us to let DD to have fish and chips and making out we were being neglectful parents because we wouldn't let her. Now we're not Food Hitlers, DD does have treats etc but we don't particularly want her to be having fried foods so we asked if she could have something else (we had brought stuff with us as everytime we go round they want to feed her chippy stuff) and they got really pissed off with us. SIL was letting her two have Chinese food and fried fish and was getting stroppy because she felt we were being critical of her. We really weren't, we just wanted DD to have something different to eat is all and tried to make it clear as we could that we weren't being critical.

scrounger what I want to do about it is know how to cope with it the best way I can. As I say NC is not an option. Now my PND has been treated and resolved I no longer want to challenge MIL in a screaming match. I just want to detach and have a civil, distant relationship.

I also want to learn how to protect my DD from their toxicity. She loves them and I guess I feel bad on her because my mum isn't around.

I think it's better to have no grandma, though it's sad, than a terrible one.

Sorry but if you despise your own child and their spouse, to the point of deliberately inflicting pain on them and laughing, you don't actually love their child. You have to protect your DD from them. They are nasty, nasty people. Don't take her over there any more. You can't protect someone from simply the toxicity of a toxic person. An adult might be strong enough, sometimes, but not a child. She is completely incapable of the boundaries and the strong self-esteem needed to deal with people like this. And they will turn on her one day, yes she's their own granddaughter, but remember your DH is their own son! They are nasty!

Trust me, if NC was an option I would do it right now. I wish it was :( but I make sure she is never left alone with them and DH and I are in agreement that we will not tolerate any of their shitty behaviour. As soon as they start to pull any of that crap with her, then it is NC. Luckily we work such crazy hours we don't see them that often anyway (yet another thing they used to give us shit about).

I had toxic grandparents so I know how bad it can be. My Nan used to weigh me every week when we visited and shout at me for being fat.

InLaws I don't have toxic relatives, some can be a bit difficult at times but they aren't toxic so I don't understand what you are going through. There will be others on here who have or are going through this with you. However from an objective view point they are way, way, way, way, way out of the bounds of normal behaviour and will never be considerate, tolerant or civil however you behave with them. Also, they seem to favour your DH's sister over him. They seem to be doing the same to their GC. Look after yourself and your family, you cannot make people behave well.

You're right scrounger, I need to just look after my DH and DD.

I sometimes wonder how DH can be such a wonderful man given the piss poor example he has been shown when he was growing up.

And yes, they do favour SIL over him. I could fill a whole thread just about her. I REALLY detest her. The dramas she has had over the years are just ridiculous. She is a grown woman with 2 children yet she acts like such a brat.

My father was in exactly the same situation with respecto to his own mother. His sister was the golden child, he could do nothing right.

You need to support your husband, and help him to realise that he really doesn't have to put with any of this shit, that he doesn't deserve it. You should point out every instance of mistreatment, even if he refuses to see it - it will sink in eventually.

And of course, never allow your child to be harmed by these disgusting people.

Jesus, OP, your in-laws are absolutely ghastly. Not sure why you can'tgo NC - you'd be entirely justified.

I wish I were your MIL - I'd love and cherish you and your kids, be delighted to babysit and be totally supportive. I really feel for you and your husband. Still can't understand why you can't go NC, though. The inlaws, and their horrible daughter, deserve it.

'I just want to detach and have a civil, distant relationship.'

If you can't go NC, then this is absolutely the way forward. I understand that NC is not just like flicking a switch - it's something you have to decide in your own good time, or not at all. A civil, distant relationship is what I'm aiming for with my own parents.

Agree with other posters about protecting your own children. Stand firm! If you decide that you don't want DD to have deep fried foods, then do not under any circumstances give in to the bullying you get from ILs. It will only escalate if they feel they can get away with it. People like your ILs don't respect other people's boundaries and think that anyone can be made to do their bidding. Do not give an inch on issues that are important to you.

I think because it's not my decision to go NC really. And DH still loves them and isn't ready to go that far. He still doesn't get it 100% that they are toxic. He's had 30 plus years of their behaviour so I imagine it must be hard to let go of it. Especially when there are times (very brief times) that they are well behaved and he thinks they are getting better.

I just have to support him, let him know he deserves better and be there for whatever decision he makes. Luckily he's got more insight than my dad did with my nan. He thought she couldn't do no wrong and didn't think her behaviour towards me was bad. However DH has some insight into their behaviour and I know if they put one foot wrong with DD then that is it.

'Especially when there are times (very brief times) that they are well behaved and he thinks they are getting better.'

That absolutely kills because it fuels your hope that maybe you've got this all wrong and they will turn out to be normal and nice one day. It's so unbelievably painful letting go of your parents, and the family that you thought you had. Someone wrote on another thread that you know where you are with a dog that doesn't bite, you know where you are with a dog that always bites (and you can keep away from them) but with a dog that sometimes bites? It's all a lot more messy and confusing.

'I just have to support him, let him know he deserves better and be there for whatever decision he makes'

This is what my DP and I do for each other - he has toxic parents too! It makes a huge difference to know that you have people who love you and are on your side.

Would you be able to ask him to read this thread?

With their level of vileness, even if they love your DD they won't be able to hide their feelings about her parents.

You need to disengage.

Completely.

About the whole food business - it's absolutely OK not to feed your junk food. It's your child, your responsibility. And especially if you are not putting them out in anyway by bringing your own food then you are absolutely reasonable!!

Sounds like they don't respect you or your dh very much.

Why do you need to see these folks so often!?! Keep it civil, distant and to 'occasions' only. You both have a choice. You don't need to drive over and see them!! There is so much more to life than all this shitty bullshit.

Keep strong!!

We do manage to keep the meet ups as infrequent as possible. Thank goodness for working all the hours in the world!!! Mind you MIL manages to circumvent that by ringing DH throughout the day when he is in work and can't really 'chat' about nothing. He's had to tell her to stop ringing when he is in work so often now I think it's finally registered and she's stopped doing it. Last week's meet up was because DH felt guilty. He's been having a really bad time in work and completely forgot to post her Mother's Day card. He got her a present and gave it to her but forgot about the card. (He forgot to get me one too, I was not at all bothered. He got me a lovely present which he didn't have to get at all, I was more than happy with the bunch of flowers he took DD to buy for me). Anyway, SIL took him to one side and told him off for forgetting about the card because MIL was devastated he forgot. He explained it was completely by accident and he got her a lovely present but SIL kept shouting at him saying he didn't 'understand' how upsetting it was.,

I completely forgot to mention the nastiest thing she has ever done. It's something we rarely talk about as it distressed DH so much. Just as we'd got together, MIL was diagnosed with cancer. She didn't bother to tell him. He only found out when he was speaking to her one day and asked about her plans the day after and she said 'oh I'm going in for my operation' and he was like WHAT?. You may have thought she did that to protect him or whatever. But no, she said she just 'forgot' to tell him and got annoyed with him when he got all upset. Everyone else in the family knew except for DH.

Thinking back now, she uses that as something to hold over him. She's been fine for 13 years now. But every time something happens in our lives, she has a 'scare' cue weeks of us panicking that the cancer has come back and all the attention on her. Like when my mum died, she had a scare. When I was hospitalised, she had a scare. I've just recently had a day case operation and again we asked if they could see to DD for a couple of hours in the evening so DH could come and pick me up from hospital and she agreed. A week later she couldn't as she had a scare and had arranged for her scan to be on the day of her operation.

I probably sound cold hearted here but thinking about it now it's happened far to often, normally when we have a bit of a crisis for it to be normal.

They don't respect me at all. FIL thinks I'm a silly little girl because I challenge him when he says something sexist.

the health thing is very common with toxic relatives :s Been on the receiving end of that stuff too and it is just awful.

You might find Toxic Parents helpful, Susan Forward, if someone hasn't recommended it already.

They sound thoroughly poisonous. Your poor husband. I hope you can gently keep helping him see how destructive they are.

I would be very careful indeed about contact with your daughter, even supervised by you two. Toadstools look pretty and smell pretty but their substance is deadly and man, your PILs are toadstools.

I think you may find that ignoring them is the best option (and will drive them crazy).

Whenever they say something that is meant to hurt or demean your, or they treat you like a little girl, just nod and smile abstently, saying "yes, yes, of course", and very obviously thinking "you stupid old fool".

It will drive them batty if they can't get to you, I can guarantee that.

Yuck, they sound horrendous!

They sound like utterly toxic twats and if they were mine I'd emigrate to Mars to get away from them. Arses of the ghastliest kind.