Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Some questions about abusers

43 replies

MrsAnonymousYummyMummy · 23/02/2014 20:35

Hello
I have recently got out of an unhealthy relationship on the whole am feeling much happier :). I have been doing some reflecting / thinking as I really want to ensure I avoid putting myself in this situation in the future.

I have completed the freedom programme and was surprised just how many abusive traits my stbxh has, ranging from bully, jailer, king of the castle, liar, persuader and head worker!

Anyway, although the course was useful, I do have some confusion which I'm hoping you can help with. I know there's no definitive answers, and posters can only offer opinion and not fact, but I think hearing others views may help clarify things for me.

So my questions follow:

  1. Do abusers know what they are doing? Is it calculated? Do they know the impact it has?
  1. Do abusers ever change? Do they ever want to?
  1. Is it abuse if both parties are happy with the dynamic? For example, a couple may adopt 'traditional' roles where the woman does housework and childcare and the man is the breadwinner. Whereas some women would find this dynamic domineering/controlling, others may be happy with it? Also, for example if the woman later changed her mind and says that she wants to work and share housework and childcare and the man reacts negatively and refuses is he being abusive? Or are they just not compatible?
  1. Are all men potentially abusers? It's been noted that many men do not show abusive nature unless the woman becomes a) more dependent (e.g. Financially or pregnant) or b) more independent (e.g financially or socially). It's been implied on these boards that abusive men may not abuse until the woman is in situation a) as the man then feels safer to get away with it? Is it really that premeditated ?? Or does the situation put pressure on the man and we all behave less well when under pressure? Similarly in situation b) would a man be reacting badly as they are scared to lose relationship but are unable to communicate feelings? Just some of my thoughts, be interested to know other views.
  1. Can any medical reason explain abusive behaviour? For example depression? Or other mental health issues?
  1. How many relationships out there are completely free from any abuse from either party 24/7 for their duration? When I say abuse, I mean everything on the scale, not just extreme such as physicall aggression but shouting, sulking, name calling, silent treatment, lying, criticisms etc. no-one is perfect and I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect someone in a relationship to always act in a 100% appropriate?

Thank you for reading and look for war to your responses...

OP posts:
wyrdyBird · 24/02/2014 20:35

Bibliomania I do agree with you
I think once you grasp the underlying mindset and what the abuser is trying to achieve, the actions aren't surprising at all.

...this is partly why I see abuse as a kind of emergent property of a particular mindset (a dysfunctional one). Not something a normal person might deliberately choose to do, or not do.

..
Another recommendation for Bancroft here - his book is well researched and provides clear, cut-to-the chase information.

louby44 · 24/02/2014 22:04

This is a fascinating thread.

My experience is slightly different in that my exP was emotionally abusing my 2 DS. He would ignore them, not speak to them unless it was to say something negative. He rarely praised them. He showed no warmth or affection towards them. The NSPCC state that this is EA. He was very controlling around the kids, lots of rules about food in certain rooms, no playing football in the garden. Very little fun or laughter. He lived with us for nearly 6 years. It got progressively worse over time as the relationship settled. He would get very angry with them and pull them by the arm and shout in their faces. He never hit my DS.

He would moan about them 'eating all the food in the house', not flushing the toilets, marking the walls. All annoying but it was the way he would tell them off.

His own 2 DD (14 & 16) also were subjected to his abuse. He was loving towards them but he was also controlling and with a rebellious 16 yr old he lost it last year and slapped his DD across the face and put his hands around her throat whilst we were on holiday.

Towards me he was loving, considerate and kind. BUT he would ignore me for days if I annoyed him, or didn't agree with him about something, he wouldn't communicate like an adult. It was always me that attempted to make up. His anger was always bubbling under the surface.

I've since discovered since our split that there is DV in his past relationships. And am very surprised (as is the source of my information) that he never hit me. I can only conclude that because I'm quite a strong person, financially independent and intelligent that he maybe respected me more??? I'm also quite a calm, rational person and I think that our relationship lasted the 6 years that it did because I didn't rise to his anger... I really don't know.

I don't miss treading on egg shells anymore and worrying that my DS drops food on the floor or eats a yogurt he shouldn't!

Hissy · 24/02/2014 23:30

The freedom programme is free for both on and offline courses.

I strongly recommend the offline course, as you get to hear and see other with similar experiences to yours, and seeing how abusers are pretty much the same, you really appreciate that it just wasn't you, it really was them.

I did the FP, and group and individual therapy. Hard core perhaps, but 3 years on I struggle to recognise myself sometimes.

Agoraphobia is gone, trauma too. My son's a happy, confident and successful lad that I burst with pride over.

Ex doesn't scare me any more. He's not that important in my life either. I am, ds is, and that's all that matters.

I know hundreds of survivors of DV, and not one of them, ever, has regretted leaving their abuser.

It feels the hardest step to make sometimes, but once you've made it, you realise that it was far, far harder to stay in the abusive relationship.

MrsAnonymousYummyMummy · 25/02/2014 10:23

Hello all, and thanks for your responses.

For those reading who are interested in The Freedom Programme, you can do it free online here:
www.onespace.org.uk/elearning/courses/freedom-programme

I was especially interested by:
"We don't all become bullies under pressure. Most people deal with it through considerate negotiation."

What if the person has not learned how to do that though? What if their role models (parents) have only demonstrated bullying tactics? Surely then it would be difficult to demonstrate anything other than what has been taught to them from a young age? Not saying it excuses the behaviour, moreso explains it but maybe takes away the calculated bit - to them they don't know any better? Especially if they cant see any wrong in the way their parents were - there are adults who were physically punished as a child who insist 'it never done them any harm.' and so on. That said, I don't know if these people could change as maybe the behaviour is too ingrained? Just some thoughts of mine...

I would also be interested in CogitoErgoSometimes's views if she is around??

OP posts:
Meerka · 25/02/2014 11:35

Yes, i think a lot of people do model the behaviour they see as young people. Well, that's the whole point of being a parent isnt it, to be an example for your children =)

But everyone sees different ways of doing things as well as their own. Some people observe and choose to do things differently. Some people need it pointing out to them, at which point they can choose to do things a better way or they can choose to carry on as they are. I think it partly depends on how deeply ingrained these patterns have become, but we're pretty flexible as young people. Harder when you're older.

If someone's in a relationship with someone with bullying tendancies, then they need to make it clear this isn't ok and to tell / show them there are differetn ways of handling conflicting desires. If there is a genuine willingness to at least try these different and better methods, then there's a chance for the relationship and you can both work on it. If there is no genuine desire to try to improve the relatinship ... you're on a loser.

It takes quite a lot of strength to stand up to a bully though and it's hard hard work. Some people are better off cutting their losses.

(As a note, also actually I think a few people come over as bullying when actually the are simply a bad match with their partner. I went out with someone for a while who was absolutely not a bad man, not at all, but he was too forceful in his personality for me (and im told im quite a strong char myself). If i'd stayed with him I'd have ended up a pale shadow of myself. it wasn't that he was a bad man, just wrong for me. )

< peers around for a Cogito too. Or an Anyfucker>

BeCool · 25/02/2014 11:58

"What if the person has not learned how to do that though? What if their role models (parents) have only demonstrated bullying tactics? Surely then it would be difficult to demonstrate anything other than what has been taught to them from a young age?"

I struggled with this for a long time with XP. I am aware his background/upbringing was very difficult. It lead me to staying with him when he could be very nasty.

I guess the short answer is it is his responsibility to engage with this and do something about it. What YOU know means nothing. It doesn't change their behaviour. Only they can do that. What you and I need to accept (and this bit can be really difficult), is they might not want to see it, or know it, or they might see it/know it and not want of feel the need to change or feel they have the ability to change. Maybe they try to engage with the issues but can't change?

They are still an arse for engaging in the abusive behaviour. It's not their Mum or Dad abusing you but your partner.

Ultimately it all comes down to personal responsibility.

BeCool · 25/02/2014 11:59

YY - that is one of the most important reasons for leaving abusers and removing yourself and your DC from the situation - so you don't inflict this fucked up learning on your DC.

Clouddancer · 25/02/2014 13:08

How do you stop them manipulating your DC once you have left though? Or how do you deal with it, because you can't stop them, and DC have to have contact and the chance to form their own relationship with their NRP.

Mine, controlling, bullying, EA, SA, PA to his DSD (my DD), is now contending for dad of the year, and of course, this is fine for DS (who is pre-school, so adores the ground his father walks on), but I find it SO hard to have it rubbed in my face. It is combined with hostility, aggression and abuse to me through the legal process; and so it is like he is lovebombing DS (if that does not sound too ridiculous), whilst exhausting me financially and emotionally.

bibliomania · 25/02/2014 13:21

I know exactly what you mean by love-bombing, could.

Lundy Bancroft has some guidance in When Dad Hurts Mom. It's not quite as good as his other book, but the general principle is that you don't badmouth the ex, but you tell the truth in age-appropriate ways, when asked, and you teach the child critical thinking. It can be indirect, eg. when watching an ad on telly, you can ask the child what the advertiser wants you to believe and why. Over time, you help the child build up the tools to come to their own understanding of the relationship.

That seems a bit woolly and long-term when you're dealing with a hurt child that you can't properly protect. I'm a few years down the road and mostly I don't resent the "love-bombing" because I think at least dd will get something from it. At 6, she can to some extent see through her dad and the stuff he says about me (horrible things, including that I'm trying to kill her). He's not a good person, but he's not totally evil either. I try to help dd to manage her ambivalence, and get the most out of the good bits.

Clouddancer · 25/02/2014 13:48

Thank you, that is really helpful. I was reflecting on it after I posted, and I too think the love-bombing is better than emotional neglect or any other things which could happen (my DD is basically excluded), but you are right, it is the balance of love-bombing with what will be said about me. (And the saccharine pretense to everyone else, that if only I hadn't left, we would have a perfect marriage, and DS would just like us to be back together...).

I really like the point about critical thinking generally and being aware of what people want you to believe, and giving them the tools to understand themselves; these are life skills and non-personalised. I will have a look at the Lundy book.

Otherwise, really insightful thread, thank you.

GarlicLeGrenouille · 25/02/2014 14:51

I was raised by a sadistic, bullying father and a mother who 'understood' him. In brief summary, I grew up to expect violence & control from men - it may help to illustrate this when I tell you I didn't find out until 35yo that not all men hit their partners. My part in relationships might be described as "control through suffering". It didn't work, of course, but I'd internalised Mum's role as Martyred Saint. Sparky; independent; adoring; forgiving: I dedicated myself to loving them better. (Thus proving that I had power over their dysfunctions, a battle my mother had never won. Neither would I, but I was unaware of all this going on in my psyche - it was just "me".)

I was more abused than abusing, but my point here is that I did behave abusively. I aimed for control, just as my partners did. My relationships were constant battlegrounds but, lacking insight, I characterised them as volatile, passionate, intense, etc. At every negotiable point in my relationships - from choice of takeaways to sex position - my reactions were point-scoring. Even when being overcome by emotion, there is a point at which we choose how to express it. You know how you can see small children doing this sometimes? Shall I wail, scream, whine, giggle or ignore? Which will get the attention I want? Well, I was still doing it at 30. I had no ability to express feelings authentically & calmly - I didn't even know it's possible, or that my style was abnormal - but had expert command of a range of manipulative tools.

I didn't know I was doing it, because I didn't know anything different. But I can recall hundreds of moments where I calibrated my actions according to the reaction I wanted. Therapy taught me to 'hear' my thoughts & feelings, to recognise the moment of choice, and to choose an honest action. Until then, I had no experience of honest choices (I must have seen & heard them, but misinterpreted them because they didn't fit my only frame of reference.) I only knew how to conduct relationships through point-scoring. Incidentally, when people describe abusers as 'charming', this is what they're seeing. I was a very successful salesperson.

That's what I meant by "an almost instinctive, split-second choice, but a calculation all the same". I'm not sure whether I've explained myself clearly, but feel free to ask!

GarlicLeGrenouille · 25/02/2014 14:55

critical thinking ... being aware of what people want you to believe ... the tools to understand themselves - Yes! It's so important! :)

MrsAnonymousYummyMummy · 25/02/2014 15:22

*What you and I need to accept (and this bit can be really difficult), is they might not want to see it, or know it, or they might see it/know it and not want of feel the need to change or feel they have the ability to change. Maybe they try to engage with the issues but can't change?

They are still an arse for engaging in the abusive behaviour. It's not their Mum or Dad abusing you but your partner.

Ultimately it all comes down to personal responsibility.*

Yes I have accepted that its who he is, and he is unlikely to change and even if he did it wouldn't make any difference to me as I have too much negative association with him! Sometimes when I think of the way he treated me at times I feel physically sick!

You are right about the personal responsibility bit. BUT, it does make me feel a lot better to think that the way he acts is not intentional (even though he is responsible) if that makes sense. Don't know I just don't want to think I was in love with a complete psycho!!

Thanks everyone for contributing to this post :-)

OP posts:
MrsAnonymousYummyMummy · 25/02/2014 15:24

Dunno why the ** didn't work to bold?? Sorry :)

OP posts:
Meerka · 25/02/2014 15:47

garlic again you've summarised in a beautiful way the abused / abusing person .... what a, yes, beautiful post.

And I would like to acknowledge your willingness to try to change, your openness to therapy and your honesty. One of the hardest journeys people can take, and so many can't do it.

tbh you brought tears to my eyes.

GarlicLeGrenouille · 25/02/2014 16:04

Golly! Thanks again, Meerka Flowers ?

Dahlen · 25/02/2014 17:02

Glad you're moving on with your life MrsAnonymous. I think confusion about all these issues is a clear sign that you're really recovering. Finding your own path through the shades of grey areas is the way you make your peace with this IMO.

1. Do abusers know what they are doing? Is it calculated? Do they know the impact it has?
Some will and won't care as long as they get their own ends met. These people are truly sociopathic. Most abusers, however, probably don't recognise that they are abusive IMO. They may well act in a calculated fashion (e.g. I'll show her by doing x when she does y) but they won't recognise that behaviour as abusive because in their minds their victim was at fault for doing y in the first place and x is just them putting things back as they should be. Most abusers are masters at the self-justifying perspective. Abusers are not gifted in the self-awareness department, despite often being highly intelligent in other ways. Where they are aware of the impact of their behaviour, they won't care. More likely is a self-justifying minimisation of it, because that allows them to carry on with the belief that they're in the right.

2. Do abusers ever change? Do they ever want to?
IME no. Lundy Bancroft estimates about 5% probably change long-term. What happens more often is that the abuse becomes more subtle/manipulative and much harder to call. Like any problem behaviour, the key to changing it is the recognition of it in the first place and the acceptance of personal responsibility. Both of which are necessarily absent in the psyche of a typical abuser. If they were capable of that level of awareness and responsibility, they probably wouldn't be abusive in the first place.

3. Is it abuse if both parties are happy with the dynamic? For example, a couple may adopt 'traditional' roles where the woman does housework and childcare and the man is the breadwinner. Whereas some women would find this dynamic domineering/controlling, others may be happy with it? Also, for example if the woman later changed her mind and says that she wants to work and share housework and childcare and the man reacts negatively and refuses is he being abusive? Or are they just not compatible?
Traditional is not the same as abusive. It's all about the power balance. It's perfectly possible for a SAHM for example to be a complete equal in her relationship if her partner recognises her contribution to the arrangement, considers her his equal in every way, ensures she has equal access and control over money, and recognises that she has the right - as does he - to want to alter his/her role subject to negotiation. It may be the case, for example, that the costs of a woman returning to work are prohibitive when looked at in a family income scenario, even if it is recognised that not all benefits from paid employment are financial. This is no different from a family man realising he can't give up his steady career to follow a dream if it means the family experiencing poverty. However, both partners should appreciate each other's desires and see it as a mutual goal to try to enable them where possible, even if that means upsetting a perfectly good arrangement. Everything should be considered negotiable, with no one person having the 'final word'. It may be the case that the viewpoints are not compatible, in which case each party reserves the right to leave the relationship, but a non-abusive position would be to recognise that "what we want is not compatible" not "if you do this, I'll leave" or "it's your fault this is happening".

4. Are all men potentially abusers? It's been noted that many men do not show abusive nature unless the woman becomes a) more dependent (e.g. Financially or pregnant) or b) more independent (e.g financially or socially). It's been implied on these boards that abusive men may not abuse until the woman is in situation a) as the man then feels safer to get away with it? Is it really that premeditated ?? Or does the situation put pressure on the man and we all behave less well when under pressure? Similarly in situation b) would a man be reacting badly as they are scared to lose relationship but are unable to communicate feelings? Just some of my thoughts, be interested to know other views.
Yes and no. There is no gene attached to the Y chromosome that makes men potential abusers. Rather it is a power imbalance that sows the seeds for it. Power corrupts, and that's been well known for millennia. Sadly, even good people can fall foul of it. It takes integrity, personal responsibility and self-awareness to make sure you don't; and many people don't possess those traits in the quantities required, but because men generally possess more power (as expressed through financial independence/superiority), more men than women are likely to abusers. It's no accident that as gender equality increases, the number of female abusers is too.

5. Can any medical reason explain abusive behaviour? For example depression? Or other mental health issues?
Yes, but TBH it's not as common as many abusers would like to claim. Most MH illnesses most emphatically do not manifest as abusive behaviour. Many people suffering from depression will direct any anger inwardly and become withdrawn rather than aggressive, for example. Unless a MH illness causes someone to behave completely out of character in other ways as well, I'd say that anyone citing a MH issue as a reason for their abuse is talking BS.
There are other physical illnesses that can cause aggression, but again this is rare in terms of the number of abusers affected in this way.
The root of abusive behaviour is psychological, but that's very different to saying they are pathological.

6. How many relationships out there are completely free from any abuse from either party 24/7 for their duration? When I say abuse, I mean everything on the scale, not just extreme such as physical aggression but shouting, sulking, name calling, silent treatment, lying, criticisms etc. no-one is perfect and I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect someone in a relationship to always act in a 100% appropriate?
Abuse is generally defined as a pattern of behaviour. IME there is never any excuse for violence and name calling. I have never resorted to either in my relationships. However, most people will have sulked or sniped at some point. Relationships are to some extent about tolerance and forgiveness for human frailty and being loved despite our faults. Again, it's about balance. Some faults should not qualify for tolerance (e.g. violence) and other more minor ones should only be tolerated as long as they are the exception rather than the rule. Any regular occurrence should be considered abusive, IMO.

I'm on my third LTR. One was abusive. The other two (including the one that ended in divorce and remained amicable throughout) were not. Out of the people I know, the majority are in non-abusive relationships, though some of them definitely have the potential for abuse if the man in them was inclined to manipulate the power balance. Fortunately, they are not those kinds of men. You can tell these men because they're the ones who talk about their partners in positive, equal terms.

To come back to your question about where it comes from - childhood, etc. Yes, I think childhood is often the reason for their behaviour. But trauma is not an excuse. We don't let off murderers, rapists, thieves or muggers just because they had a terrible childhood. It's fine to feel compassion for the child the abuser once was, but that's not the same as making excuses for the adult they now are. The most they can hope for is respect and support if they choose to tackle their behavioural problems themselves and make a concerted effort to beat it.

Hope you're enjoying the thread OP. Makes interesting reading.

MrsAnonymousYummyMummy · 25/02/2014 20:35

Wow Dahlen!,

Thanks for taking the time to post and yes I am finding this thread useful for getting past all that has happened. So much of what you have written has hit the nail on the head for me, makes perfect sense. The bit about them not recognising it as abusive but justifying it especially.

My ex had at times some genuine insight, I remember him saying once unprompted "I don't treat you right and I think I should see someone about it." He seemed very disturbed by it, however I think he soon switched off that awareness and of course didn't go to see anyone, I think for most abusers it is easier to justify and minimise than actually change. Perhaps easier for him also as he never physically hurt me so can always tell himself he's not that bad. Later he has said to me 'it's the way I am, that's me' and he's very honest there but also as someone else pointed out somewhere, unwilling to take responsibility for the effects of his actions. I don't think he's a bad person per se, but he'll never treat anyone with appropriate respect I don't think. I do feel sad, mainly for our son, I feel guilty that this is the father I chose for him because looking back the signs were there before he was conceived, although did get worse later. I do think that abusers act worse when children are in the picture at least partly because they don't get the same attention as previously, I have felt quite strongly that my husband was jealous of the attention I gave my son. I know that the way my husband is will affect my son but hope that I can counteract the negative enough for it not to damage him too much.

I have also ordered that book!

Thank you

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread