The reason your DH had an affair was because you didn't have sex enough

[PTFsWife]

I just need to write this down to get it off my chest more than anything because if not, it will fester and not end well.

So my husband had an affair last year, which I have written about on here. We are working together to get though it and make our marriage stronger. We have had counselling individually and jointly and basically it is all moving in the right direction. He is trying very hard and if there can ever be a 'good' outcome of an affair, I think we have it in that our marriage is better than it was before because we are both more committed to fixing it.

Several of my friends (and family) knows about the affair. One friend also knows (as I confided to her drunkenly last year) that my husband and I had only had sex twice in the last year. As it turns out, our sex life had been an issue for years (since the arrival of kids) but it had been improving just about the same time that he started his affair ironically.

So I was chatting to my friend today about our marriage and mentioned that although things were better and we were working hard to work through issues - and have even managed to have sex a few times which was a big deal for me given what he had done - sex was still irregular in our house and I wasn't sure if that was due to the affair or more of a continuation of our previous sexless marriage.

And my friend then said: 'The reason he had the affair is because you didn't have sex often enough. Men need sex. Do not underestimate that. You have to have sex more often, even if you don't feel like it, you just have to. The more you have it, the more you will want to and the better it will be.' This was meant as well meaning advice - not to be hurtful.

I understand her thinking because that is exactly the reason I believe he had an affair - he got attention from someone and got to have sex. He knows it was a monumental mistake and is immensely sorry.

The reason this has upset me is that my friend's attitude - and it's probably an attitude shared by many people - is that I am partly to blame for my husband's affair because I wasn't having sex with him enough. Even if they don't say it, it's what they think.

I know that it probably helped contribute to it, but I have always refused to accept responsibility for him having an affair. He doesn't expect me to either. He blames himself for his actions entirely. But I know that there are others out there who think like my friend i.e. that I obviously wasn't keeping my man satisfied so he had to look elsewhere. And that pisses me off and makes me deeply sad at the same time.

Thank you for reading this diatribe. I'm not really looking for answers - I just needed get it down and out of me.

[ReadyToPopAndFresh]

If sex is a basci need how are women able to get away with "withholding" it. You'd think they would need it as much as men. Or is it only a basic need for men.

Also assuming women "withhold" sex implies you think women don't actually enjoy sex so are happy to give it up. And if women don't enjoy sex.. and you still think they should provide sex.

Well that's a problem isn't it?

I think men and women both enjoy sex (as a whole) and if initially you are both having and enjoying sex and suddenly it isn't happening anymore it's a symptom not a cause.

[Offred]

I don't hate men. I'm opposed to rape. Isn't it funny how people conflate men with rapists so often when you make anti rape arguments. It's people who conflate men with rapists that have a low opinion of men IMO.

Sex when you don't want it is rape/sexual abuse isn't it?

That's what the op's friend was suggesting would get her relationship back on track.

[Offred]

Even taking the issue about what you call rape/abuse and the assumption that women withhold sex out of it; Submitting to sex that you don't want destroys intimacy and respect. The friend's suggestion would damage the relationship and be dangerous to the op's mental health.

Sex life falling by the wayside along with intimacy is a symptom of a problem in the relationship. It cannot be solved by just having sex when you don't want it. It can't be solved by having an affair.

It can only be solved by both people working on the underlying cause or making a choice to split up and perhaps move on to other more compatible partners.

[Bonsoir]

If someone doesn't enjoy sex, he/she shouldn't engage in a mutually monogamous contract like marriage.

[Keepithidden]

Why the attack on Offred? I haven't read anything on recent threads (and certainly not this one) that paints a "man hating" picture, the views expressed on sex/rape seem pretty logical and well thought out, okay so they may be contrary to the way some in society think, but that's probably a reflection on society rather than the individual.

Respect for not replying in a personal manner to those offended by your views Red.

[Offred]

Bonsoir - sex is not part of the marriage contract since RvR and the sexual offences act 2003.

People are free to determine their own relationships within the legal and financial obligations of the marriage contract. If both partners want no sex should they still not get married?

Besides, it is very, very rare that with any relationship where sex has dropped off after an initial good period the problem is that one person just doesn't like sex because it is quite rare not to want sex.

Because the sex is part of a relationship it seems strange to assume people who aren't having as much sex as they did just don't like sex.

It can be hormonal, work/family stress, depression/treatment for it, bereavement, a change in feelings towards your partner, an affair or a myriad of things which cause a change.

[Offred]

Many people who struggled to want sex in one relationship discover that the problem was their feelings towards their partner at the time or their feelings towards themselves and have great relationships with other people when they have sorted that problem.

[stalepalemale]

Why does everything on this board have to come down to rape? As I understand it, rape involves non-consensual sex. Making an effort to get in the mood to help turn your relationship around does not equal rape, and saying it does just insults rape survivors. It also serves to bully people off this board.

Anyway back to whether it's disloyal and disrespectful the chat with your mates about your dire sex life and relationship, I'll answer your points one by one, Offred.

Why has this thread been invaded by MRAs?!

If you're calling me a men's rights activist, you're wrong. I just can't bear to see idiotic advice taken seriously.

Yes, talk to who you want about what you want. Discussing your sex life isn't inherently disloyal.

If your DP would be upset if they heard exactly what you were saying about this most personal of subjects, then it is - very. I'd even say it was abusive, because it's treating them with utter disrespect.

What have strip clubs got to do with anything at all. Are you promoting a 'women gossip, men perve' stereotype now?

I'm not promoting any stereotype, I'm just pointing out that men have been going to strip clubs and brothels together for millennia, and probably experience some kind of camaraderie and/or release from the pressures they get from their DWs. Doesn't make it right, though, just as bitching about your bloke with your mates isn't right.

I am opposed to strip clubs not because they are disloyal but because they are oppressive and I have an ethical problem with them. I believe in privacy but I don't think that means someone cannot choose to discuss their own relationship with someone else - obviously they are the best person to know what their partner's personal privacy preferences are.

They 'know what their parter's personal privacy preferences are'? Ha! Unless the DH knows exactly what the OP is saying, and is cool with it, then it is a gross invasion of privacy - end of. And abusive, too.

What you say smacks of an attempt to guilt a cheated on partner into not saying anything in order to protect the infidelity not the privacy.

All the friends know about the infidelity already, it can't be 'protected'. The privacy can, and should.

A sexless marriage is not an affair waiting to happen which is what you are trying to imply with that last comment.

It's a ticking time bomb because it weakens a marriage and makes it more vulnerable. And it's a terrible model for children, as well as being no fun.

The op's relationship wasn't sexless anyway, they were both not interested in having as much sex as they had before.

Err, it was still sexless! And we don't know he wasn't interested, just that he 'didn't have a massive sex drive' (with her) which just means he wasn't pestering her all the time. After a few knockbacks, many guys will just give up, as the rejection can really hurt.

I cannot actually believe you would attempt to argue that the op is not allowed to stop blaming herself for the reduced sex now she's discovered he was having sex with someone else rather than having sex with her!

I never said anything like that! I have no idea who's to 'blame' for the lack of sex, if either of them are. All I'm saying is that, if they both want to stay married, they should be figuring out what's holding their sex life back, and fix it, fast. Chatting to mates won't help, believe me. It will just add to the pressure for both of them and be completely counterproductive.

[Offred]

"You have to have sex more often, even if you don't feel like it, you just have to"

This is not consent.

You shouldn't make an effort to have sex you don't want. Not having sex is not the problem in a marriage where there are issues with reduced sex. It is usually other things like affairs or stress etc. Forcing the sex in that situation IME and IMO ruins the relationship further as it ruins any enjoyment of sex and doesn't solve the problem.

In any case in a mutually reduced sex life why does the woman have to force herself to have sex she doesn't want?

[AmberSpyglass]

Yoga?! Was that supposed to be a joke?

Sex when you don't want it, whether that's from fear that your husband will have an affair, or any reason, is rape.

Having sex consensually when you can't really be bothered but think to hell with it, is different.

[AmberSpyglass]

If a man was threatening, whether explicitly or implicitly, that he'd have an affair, then that IS forcing her. Rape isn't just about being dragged into an alley and held down. There are many ways to force someone to do something!

I still can't quite get my head round the fact that you compared making yourself go to yoga, with having unconcensual sex!

[rainbowsmiles]

Staplemale your advice is idiotic.

Comparing women getting advice from good friends to men going to strip/lap dancing clubs is such a ridiculous comparison.

Women talk to other women. Mumsnet is just my kitchen table but with a lot more women than I could fit in my kitchen. It is not disloyal to discuss problems and look for answers to problems. Men tend not to do this and I don't think the massive disparity in suicide rates between men and women is unrelated.

Women tend only to discuss sexual issues with good friends they know they can trust.

I had a v close friend who told me one day her husband never had sex with her. He had withdrawn from her for years and she was living her own personal nightmare. She thought she was doing something wrong, she was blaming herself. She thought she was being disloyal even talking about it. You can bet her husband didn't want her to tell anyone. She had slowly lost all her confidence. And guess what? Her husband wouldn't talk about it at all, refused counselling. The best thing she did was to confide in me. Funnily enough she has left him now and her head is high again and her smile back.

Sharing experiences (good and bad), problems, giving and listening to advice within friendship groups is enormously helpful. It is bolstering to the human spirit. To compare that with men getting pissed and going to lap dancing and strip clubs??

And your comment about "after a few knock backs men will give up", huh? In a marriage you think that men just give up because their wife isn't in the mood a few times. Are you 19?

[Joysmum]

And your comment about "after a few knock backs men will give up", huh? In a marriage you think that men just give up because their wife isn't in the mood a few times. Are you 19?

Actually yes.

My DH and I went through a dry patch of sex, like many couples do, after the birth of our DD.

We did talk it through and work through it. One if the things he said which stuck in my head, was that he didn't want to feel like a sex pest. That made me sad, but by trying to initiate and getting knocked back he honestly felt like it was unreasonable of him to keep trying and that I didn't want him anymore.

As for the sex an yoga analogy, I agree with that too. It's well known that when you have sex, you want more sex with you have little, it fades away. There's a big difference between not wanting sex with your partner because you aren't in the mood (which is what foreplay is about), and not wanting sex ever again full stop. I certainly found that by having more I wanted more and that's certainly not unusual for a relationship where the woman wants to improve the sex life rather than just not seeing little or no sex as an issue. It's about context.

[rainbowsmiles]

But joysmum your husband showed sensitivity and consideration for your own sexual needs. A decent man does that. And then waits for the wife to let him know when she is ready again. Depending on the individuals involved it can be verbally or non verbally. That is the pattern in a healthy functioning relationship. Your experience is normal your reluctance didn't mean no return to sex and your husband having an affair. It lead to patience, communication and understanding.

[Lazyjaney]

"The op's relationship wasn't sexless anyway, they were both not interested in having as much sex as they had before"

That's a deliberate misreading of the situation here.

There is still a huge amount of avoidance of a basic fact on this thread, ie that the person not getting sex in a relationship has every right to change their situation. The how is just detail.

[Offred]

Sex is nothing like yoga. (Yoga? Wtf more stereotyping there!)

If you want to go to yoga you go, if you don't feel like it you might choose to go because you know it will be good for you, sometimes you can't be arsed.

Yoga is not something you have to consent to. It doesn't involve a potential and damaging violation of your personal/sexual autonomy. It is an entirely individual experience. A hobby.

Sexual activity without effective legal consent is considered a crime because it is so damaging.

The two things are simply not comparable. You are not going to end up with a damaged relationship and/or sense of self or psychological problems from going to yoga when you don't feel like it.

[Offred]

There is still a huge amount of avoidance of a basic fact on this thread, ie that the person not getting sex in a relationship has every right to change their situation. The how is just detail.

No there isn't. Many people have repeatedly said that a relationship with problems which have led to a reduction in sex has every right to change the situation by working on the relationship or choosing to leave. They don't have a right to an affair and the affair doesn't even change their situation - they are still in a relationship which has problems.

The op is the one who said the reduction was mutual I.e. Not just her. She has not said the relationship was sexless. They were having sex, just not as much as before and not as much as she felt she would be happy with.

[Offred]

And this crap about men being red blooded heterosexuals and different to women and needing sex is just as damaging to men as it is women. It sets up the standard to be that men are powerful over women who are victims and it leads to under reporting of sexual assaults/abuse carried out by women (and often other men) against men.

[stalepalemale]

The DH has never threatened (explicitly or implicitly) to have an affair unless the OP has sex with him, so I don't know why people are saying that. The friend has told the OP (and the OP agrees) that their lack of sex was a reason (not a justification) for him having an affair, and she advised the OP to make more of an effort along these lines to improve their marriage (it's not called 'making love' for nothing). If the OP was to take her advice and tried to have more sex, then this would be completely consensual. The point is people do plenty of things they don't necessarily feel like doing at first because they know it's good for them. Calling this rape is insulting to rape survivors and just serves to bully people off this board.

As for the oversharing, there's a huge difference between confiding in your best friend that your marriage is in crisis and you're thinking of leaving, and chatting with mates about your dire sex life. The latter may be 'bolstering to the human spirit' (though many men would claim the same about getting pissed and going to strip clubs with mates), but it's still a gross invasion of your DP's privacy and is utterly disrespectful to them, not to mention humiliating. If you refuse to see that then fine, but know that you're simply justifying abuse. The 'need' to overshare is no greater than the 'need' to have sex - they are both illusions that mask the real human need for profound connection with other people.

[IHateWinter]

I hate affairs. I think it is low, cruel behaviour. Pretty much one of the worst things a person can do. I think many people suffer awful marriages but manage to hold onto their integrity and don't commit adultery. My parents divorced as a direct result of my fathers affair.

However, I do not believe in completely blameless affairs. There is always a reason(s), not an excuse, but a reason. Since marriage is a two person dynamic, it requires mistakes on both sides in order for them to happen, even if that means having missed red flags that the person you married is an egotistical philanderer.

And sorry as a woman who would find years of hardly any sex too much to handle, (liking and needing it a lot) I can't see why this is deemed dismissable as a possible catalyst for seeking intimacy with someone else.

[rainbowsmiles]

Staple I am at a loss. Bewildering thought processes. You inhabit a very different world and I am very glad about that.

[ReadyToPopAndFresh]

A sexless marriage is not an affair waiting to happen which is what you are trying to imply with that last comment.

It's a ticking time bomb because it weakens a marriage and makes it more vulnerable. And it's a terrible model for children, as well as being no fun.

Funny enough my children have no idea about my sex life. I should hope yours don't. If you are parading it in front of them or pestering their mother in front of them they really shouldn't be in your care

and yoga = sex, I'm pretty sure that goes against mumsnet's talk guidelines which are pretty harsh about rape apologizing.

[IHateWinter]

I see nothing wrong with staples post.

On the reverse I have seen posts on here where a woman has said they haven't had sex with DP for ages and have met someone they fancy and are very tempted and people have chimed in with 'the lack of intimacy is making you feel vulnerable etc'

double standards.

[Offred]

Why do you get to speak for rape survivors stale?

Sex is not comparable to "anything else".

Putting 'effort' in when you don't feel like it often makes the problem worse and never makes it better unless you narrow minded lot think the amount of sex IS the problem and don't care about consent.

Do you not understand sexual consent stale? I think this (people still not understanding sexual consent ad comparing sex to a hobby) is more offensive to rape survivors tbh.