In a really bad place wth DH and DS

[saffronwblue]

Married 16 years, DS is 15. Their relationship is just deteriorating as DH is continually bullying, nitpicking and belittling DS. He does not see how hurt DS is by the way he speaks to him and how damaged their relationship is. I spend all my time facilitating between them, trying to keep the peace and feeling dreadful. I don't want to go on like this. DH refuses to see that any of this is his problem. He thinks DS should just be more compliant and obedient and does not see that he has thrown away DS's respect by being so full of bluster and meanness.
If he was a stepfather I would separate. But he is DS's own father and I don't want to break up the family if we don't have to. I don't know what sort of message DS would get from that. We also have a 12 year old DD ( who has ASD) and is very sensitive to atmosphere. Would they both be happier if we split up? Would I? Or is this normal teenage adjustment and DH and I will end up happy ever after again?
I am so sad, angry and confused. We just had a scene at dinner where DS was chatting happily about his day. DH just started roaring at him about his table manners. Everyone ended the meal in stunned and angry silence.

[maggiemight]

Have you chatted honestly about things with your DS. He is of an age where he might understand things better if he knows all the background eg DH's aggressive family and childhood, and also if you explain that you and DH are trying to improve things and maybe DS will not take things personally or find it so hurtful, might even try not to upset DF, though it is DF who is being unreasonable.

[Handywoman]

Hi OP, I hope you enjoy a nice, peaceful couple of days. I recognize a lot of this behaviour, very reminiscent of my STBXH.

I remember the angry outbursts and complaints that I was undermining him. OP if you are not feeling you can voice an opinion/if there are apologies which are being left unsaid/if he is turning himself into a victim (cf asking for help from mental health services) please be vigilent.

Abusive and entitled behaviour is not in fact a mental health issue. Do not fall for this (like I did - caused me to stay in the relationship three years more than I should have)

I wish you love, luck and strength

[Handywoman]

Seems obligatory round these parts when a husband behaves in an abusive , angry way and is crap with the kids someone pipes up they have ASD!!!!

[saffronwblue]

Thank you all so much for your honest, illuminating and constructive posts. Am deep in thought.
We have had a very nice and calm weekend. I had a long talk with DS. Said that H and I both love him, and that I think H has a blind spot in terms of how he can speak to people, which DS agreed with. I said that I did not want him and DD to feel unhappy or belittled in their own home and that I am prepared to separate if we can't work it out. I also reminded DS that H has been having a truly awful few years with MIL and said that it would be a nice way for him to reach out to H to offer to go with him on a visit to her one day. It is awful visiting a relative with dementia in a locked facility but I said to DS that if he could go with H every few weeks it might make them both feel a bit closer. Currently the DC just say no thanks when H asks them to come with us to visit her. I told DS that I am so proud (which is true) of how mature and insightful he is and that I know deep down he is going to be all right as he moves into adulthood.
I've realised a few things over the last couple of days. I am really averse to separating as I believe it is like initiating a death in the family in terms of what the DC would experience. I am a strong believer in working things through if possible and I want to model this to the DC, that you don't just walk out if things get tough.
It is not an excuse but I think the ASD diagnosis is ringing true for me.
On the other hand, I have a line that I don't want to be crossed and I will tell H whenever he gets near that line. I know we would all be OK if I did decide to leave.
I have been having civil and friendly texts and calls with H who gets back late tonight. He had one free day with his conference which he spent catching up with friends and also visiting my uncle who has been in a nursing home for 10 years. H has a lovely friendship with him and always goes out of his way to visit him if he is in that city. Just saying he is not a total monster.
You may all be gnashing your teeth in disbelief that I am not already packed. Who knows, by next week I may be!
I would like to keep this thread and conversation open as things progress.

[saffronwblue]

Or as things deteriorate.

[tiredandsadmum]

This was my childhood. My dad particularly having a go at my DB. Meal times were a trigger. They were alienated for decades. Now they speak, but only because my dad had brain damage 20 years ago and doesn't remember. My DB had counselling for years. My mum was the 3rd point in that triangle and I was on the outside. But it impacted my relationships too. However my dad is not a bad person - he may have undiagnosed aspergers, was quite an old dad and I think struggled with having a son. Your DH needs to find a way to connect with his son. My mum was (sorry, still is) quite overpowering/dominant in the family. You perhaps need to step back and let DH find his own way. best of luck,x

[Rainiesmile175]

No gnashing. Just here if you need support. Good luck. In the same boat. Praying for good things for you. Xx

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Saffron,

I would like you to read OxfordBags post again.

Would your H ever want to be properly assessed though to see if he is anywhere on the ASD spectrum?. What if he refuses?. And what if he is actually not anywhere on the ASD spectrum which is an equally likely scenario. Simply put you yourself cannot assume that he is on the spectrum because he has not been diagnosed.

What if his behaviours now are a direct result of what he experienced in childhood (that is far more likely). You wrote that his mother was a narcissist. (His dad was her willing enabler as such women always need a willing enabler to help them). You also wrote that your "DH comes from a family where angry outbursts are legendary. His uncle kicked over a tv once because his teenage children were not listening to him. His cousin threw a Wii out of the window because his teenage DC were arguing over it. The whole family laughs merrily over these incidents".

I do not blame your son or daughter for that matter for not wanting to visit their relative in a locked in dementia facility. Its their choice and they have the right to say no. I would not take my son anywhere near such a facility either, it would be distressing for all concerned including the patient. Why should your son also be the one to make the first effort to get closer to his dad, surely it should be the other way around!.

You did not mention going yourself with them although I would presume that you would, would you be prepared to go along too?.

Did he ever apologise to your son for his outburst at the dinner table?.

I have no doubt at all that you want both your relationship with DH to work but I am still not convinced that he wants to do the same.

Keep posting here as well.

[ageofgrandillusion]

I agree with attila.
I also reminded DS that H has been having a truly awful few years with MIL
Explain the above OP. Why? The insinuation seems be that if somebody is having a crap time they can take it out on their children. Or am i misreading this? What kind of message does this send to your son?

[Handywoman]

Agree with Atilla and ageofgrandillusion to me it seems you are asking for understanding and olive branches from your son. You are teaching them to adapt to abusive behaviour in order to keep the peace. You say you are prepared to separate over this. But the chat you had with your son puts across the converse message. Like Atilla I would also like to know if your DH apologised about his dinnertable outburst.

[DonkeysDontRideBicycles]

I get that DH is not all bad but unless I misunderstood your earlier posts, DS seemed to be copping the brunt of stress/tension. However mature and insightful he is, it's a big ask to suggest to the target that they try harder to bond with the aggressor. If those terms seem exaggerated I am not sure how else DCs feel when grumpy dad picks on them and sours the mood. Lashing out when in a temper is something we teach toddlers not to do.

So far you're not in the line of fire when the volcano erupts. If H doesn't feel adequately supported or bolstered by the youngest members of the family what does he think you have offered all this time?

Anyway I respect you are handling this and fighting to get the family unit back on track.

[Handywoman]

Re the ASD thing if your dd is on the spectrum my guess is you try hard, as she grows, to teach her about emotions, naming, understanding, expressing and dealing with them.

Strange that your DH is not expected to do the same? That your son should instead take the lead in helping with his Dad's aggressive outbursts. There are a great many conflicting messages in this family unit.

[lazarusb]

I also think you need to be careful here. Your dh is the one at fault, not your ds. I would hate to think your ds would infer that you feel he is somehow to blame. Your dh needs to make changes, not him. The issues with MIL are just something we have to learn to deal with as adults. We have all have stresses at different times, we don't all take it out on our children.

Think carefully about what you're asking of your ds.

[saffronwblue]

What I was trying to do in my talk with ds was to make sure that he understood that there is nothing he has done to deserve an attack. I was trying to put some context around it for him - that H was lashing out, which he should not be doing, but to look at what else was happening for H, to see that it is not about DS.

Explain the above OP. Why?
I'm actually looking for support on this thread - that does not mean agreement but I am finding some of the tone here quite unsupportive.

[ScarletWomanoftheVillage]

Hi saffron, I understand about keeping the family together if possible, and about you knowing you will all be ok too if it turned out not to be possible. This whole thing is about protecting the children and providing them with a healthy/happy environment to grow up in. You have identified that it is your husband's behaviour that is preventing this healthy environment, not your son's behaviour. But in your efforts to make things harmonious, i think you need to be careful that you aren't asking your son to walk on egg shells trying not to provoke his father's bad behaviour. Because that's not really fair. If your husband's behaviour is causing a problem, then it is he who needs to change. Not your son.

I'm on phone so I hope that makes some kind of sense as tis quite difficult writing/thinking/reading at the same time on such a tiny screen and keyboard

[ScarletWomanoftheVillage]

Oh sorry saffron xpost. It is absolutely plain that you are wanting what is best for your children and that their welfare is your main concern. Best of luck with sorting this out.

[ShesADreamer]

I had it the opposite way round - my DM was the bully. I also resented my father for not standing up to her more often. I was very distant during my teens and twenties but once I had DS1 we became close again and managed to cultivate a good relationship before he died.

My relationship with DM, however, is very fraught. There is just too much hurt and mistrust on my side and, try as I might, I can't bear to let her get too close. I am very twitchy when she's around the DCs too.
Please show your DH this thread. It way wake him up to the damage he's doing.

[ShesADreamer]

'may', obv!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Saffron,

re your comment:-
"What I was trying to do in my talk with ds was to make sure that he understood that there is nothing he has done to deserve an attack. I was trying to put some context around it for him - that H was lashing out, which he should not be doing, but to look at what else was happening for H, to see that it is not about DS".

None of what your H has gone through this past few years is still any justification or excuse for his bellowing at your son at the dinner table. You've also no doubt had a hard time as well but you have not acted as your H has done.

To your credit you do realise that your DS is in no way to blame here but to ask DS to now cut his dad some slack because of outside influences affecting his dad is perhaps not the way to go here. Have you spoken to DD similarly; I note as well she was also on the receiving end of another temper tantrum on his part the other day. If anyone's behaviour has to change here it is your H's. Question though is will he really seek help or is he just paying lip service?.

Did he also subsequently apologise to your son for his outburst at the dinner table?. I take it that he did not unless you can answer to the contrary.

[MissScatterbrain]

I said that I did not want him and DD to feel unhappy or belittled in their own home and that I am prepared to separate if we can't work it out

I am concerned that this may make your DS feel responsible for keeping your marriage together.

Your DH is the adult here. He is the one who has to take full responsibility for his behavior.

[saffronwblue]

Hmmm. I found the thread in relationships about the angry email really interesting as a window onto anger in marriage and all the different interpretations of it.

[Rainiesmile175]

Hope you're ok OP. I hope things are improving for you all? Xxx

[lazarusb]

I thought that you had probably explained it differently to the way it came across, that's why I tried to be a bit guarded in my response.
It is useful for your ds to understand the bigger picture but this really is your h's responsibility and he needs to accept that and work on it. How have things been since he returned home?

[saffronwblue]

Things have been pretty harmonious this week. (he is away again for the next 2 days.) He has been much more caring and constructive in how he has addressed the DC. DD has had a terrible week of stress and misery over school and we have been focusing together on this.
H has an appointment for his mental health assessment at the end of next week. DD's psychologist has recommended a male psychologist in our area for him to be referred to if he and the dr decide to go down that track, which I think they will.
So I would say I am hanging in there for the time being. I have been crystal clear about where the line is for me and I think he has seen my resolve. I am not using separation as an empty threat but have started giving thought to the logistics etc. DS has been quite calm and cheerful this week and DD is dealing with her own issues and has needed us pulling together as parents which we have been.
I have also been thinking about the times when I have been contemptuous or controlling of him, which has also damaged our relationship.

[Lweji]

Coming late to the thread, but I don't think you should feel defensive for not having left over the course of a couple of weeks.
Of course you don't want to leave without seeing if you can work it out as a family.

He seems to be giving some positive signs, however I suspect it will all be reasonable short lived and he will revert sooner or later.
For it to last he will have to start self checking, taking responsibility over his behaviour, and apologising of his own initiative.

You may have the boundaries you don't want to see crossed, but if you call him on it when he approaches them, it's likely he'll get closer and closer and when he actually crosses them it may seem to you that the actual step was not sufficient to warrant drastic action.
But, it is good that you are seriously considering separation as an actual possibility. I suspect he'll sense it and is now taking you seriously, but I would bet that he's expecting that you'll soften with time. Fingers crossed that it is not that.

You should not be controlling his behaviour or acting as police, although to start with he could pick up clues from you to check himself.
Neither should you or the children be making excuses, because of the deaths in the family or so on. It may make people sad, even angry, but it doesn't justify belittling.