New (male) poster - just...why??

[sealift]

I'm a new poster. And genuine. My wife is on Mumsnet and I thought I'd come over here to have a nosey, found myself on the relationships board and...wow. What a thoroughly depressing eye-opener. I guess I've had a very conventional life and, despite the normal ups and downs in my marriage, just have no experience or real understanding of some of the terrible, terrible things that women on here describe their partners and husbands doing to them.

My question is...well, why? I mean, assuming this is quite a widespread occurrence in the UK, what's wrong with these men; what caused them? The example they were given (or not given) when they were growing up; something about our society and culture that encourages or permits it?

I'm just genuinely interested in views (and no, I'm not a journalist). Obviously the women who post here are self-selecting so you can't necessarily draw conclusions about all men in the UK from their testimonies and stories. But...there's just so many brutal and horrific stories. They never seem to stop.

Bluesky: remember though that a lot of women marry these men because they are initially like you and your OH, it can be years of a very gradual decline in communication that leads to resentment and spite, before she knows it the woman can be deeply into a relationship that has become dysfunctional, not so easy to walk away then.

A lot of couples stay together for the kids, even though they both make each other miserable.

Interesting what you say about kids from single parent families, I found the opposite, I raised my daughter on my own (with great family support) and I actually found the kids from the two parent families were more shouty, angry and just generally unhappy in themselves. Perhaps they came from a household that didn't involve peace and tranquillity but in fact constant rows and unsettledness.

BlueSky - lots of what you say resonates with me too. My wife is a SAHM (joint decision of ours because she felt strongly that she wanted to be at home in the early years because she remembers her mum not being when she was a child). And of course we had the very great luxury of being able to afford to do that.

But our eldest - a lovely, happy little boy - sometimes says how when he grows up and has "a baby" his "wife" will stay at home whilst he goes to work. Whilst that's completely natural and understandable for him to say in his childlike way because it's what he knows, we are always at pains to point out that there's no reason it has to be that way and mummies and daddies decide between them how they want to look after their children, or have them looked after. But I can see how those gender stereotypes can very quickly become very fixed in children's minds.

On the Feminism board you might find more on this, but I think some of the power games and abuse you read about here are due to the fact we are (supposed to be) a more equal society now. The privileges men were allowed to take for granted until not too long ago are being challenged in the core of their lives: relationship with their partner, with their children, their house, their workplace.

Wifework (Google the book), casual sexism, men in charge of family and finances, sex as part of a wife's duty, etc etc used to be the accepted norm until very recently. Giving up that position is hard and some men still feel entitled to these priviliges and fight very dirty to keep little wifey in her place. Abuse in those cases is simply the extension of existing gender politics by different means.

Unfortunately from my experience it does seem to be pretty common. I come from a good family/good area (not that that is actually relevant perhaps) and I had a very abusive partner, as have at least 4 of my (lovely, well adjusted) girlfriends, this is thinking just off the top of my head. My ex partner was abused by his Father and this seemed to mess him up in every single way mentally. I don't think he was capable of loving himself or anyone else in a normal way. I was more like a pet who had to do as it was told and needed his guidance. :(

Yeah Jan - I do have friends with children like yours - but I do think it comes down to them not feeling sidelined, you obviously have a good family backup - some of these boys dont.

I think the basis of it is how settled is the home life wether as a result of a traditional two parent family or any other type.

Yes agreed BlueSky, it's all about the child feeling loved and settled in their own home, whether raised by one parent or two.

Sometimes I think it's the same answer to the question, why do men climb mountains?

Because they can.

I went through so much prejudiced when I had my daughter at 20, to the point my friends' parents would often say to me that I had messed up my life and I would never be a good parent or be able to raise my daughter successfully.

Thankfully I never paid any attention to these bigots (30 years ago now) and I had the last laugh because my daughter turned out better than anyone else's.

Sorry I've gone off topic there!

and Jan I never say never - he may yet run off with a brainless orange teenager, I am a cynic if he has a pulse its possible He knows it would be the most expensive mistake of his life as we would not be "staying together for the children" he'd be on his mums sofa!

Sealift - my youngest has said the same about his "wife staying at home" I was horrified and pointed out that his wife may have a brilliant career and be way too busy to stay at home. They perceive me as not working because I do it at home...they dont think that through so as they also whinge when they cant have the computer because I am working

Someone from Women's Aid who works with perpetrators talked in our Freedom Programme course about the why of specific men. She said that in her experience there is a sliding scale: on the one end the sadists who enjoy the pain they cause, on the other end men with a bad childhood/mental health problems who genuinely feel horrible about themselves after being abusive and in between is the larger group that show traits of either but mostly feel what she calls 'entitled'. They are likely to have experienced violence themselves and many have personality problems, but in the end they do it because they think they have the right to take what they want from the women in their lives.

Sealift I wouldnt worry about the kid thinking mummies are for staying home. I half killed myself as a SAHM for the first seven years doing all the things you are meant to do. My eldest remembers nothing about it- he didn't even remember that there was a time when I was a SAHM and not working outside the home.

I also find the stories here upsetting and not at all what I have experienced myself. But I still have faith that most people, including most men, are decent souls. And my eldest DS has grown up a good feminist :)

Beast - yes. The SAHM thing is not something we worry about, per se. It's more something that we take the opportunity to gently challenge and refute. I suspect if we had daughters who had similar ideas we'd both be much more vociferous in challenging them!

I actually think that when (if ever :s ) the working environment is structured so that men and women get and take equal paid child leave, women and men get equal pay for equal jobs, and men and women are equally represented at all levels because they take equal time off work for their children.... then things will change.

When men and women each work 2 1/2 days a week and have 2 1/2 days at home, then I think a lot of perceptions will gradually change.

As a 'Relationships' board I guess you are going to see more problems with relationships rather than people willy (what's the female equivalent?) waving about their happy relationships.

IMO mens behaviour has improved over the years. 40 -50 years ago he was the man of the house, was more often than not the breadwinner and I imagine, in general, that he was very much in control. That's the way I imagine it was back in the day, based on no evidence whatsoever.

Now days, however, with forums like this, the popular press, and women becoming far more equal, relationship issues are easier to share.

So I do think that we are seeing a very small percentage of plonkers being twats to their wives.

I do find some of the posts on here truly shocking! It is beyond my belief and understanding that men feel they can treat some women the way they do.
Thank god there are resources like this and others where women can seek help, advice and reassurance (although some of the advice can be a little misguided)

sealift

In my own experience, I'd say it all stemmed from a very deeply-hidden self-loathing. My ex grew up in a matriarchal house with a mum and four sisters who all bullied him constantly, and a very kind but totally ineffective father for whom he had a confusing mix of love and contempt. He never learned the meaning of respect for anyone, least of all himself.

The reasons must be myriad, though, and I think the best we can all do is challenge sexism and gender stereotyping whenever we come across it ... like racism, homophobia, etc, it must be brought into the light and will take time for it to become universally unacceptable.

Be careful with pulling up your sons, though: a few weeks ago, I was cleaning our oven (and grumbling a bit about it) and my DS said: "Hopefully, when I'm grown up, I'll have a wife to do that"

Once I had come down off the ceiling and he had a chance to explain himself to me, it turned out all he really meant was that he would be very happy if there were someone willling to take this nasty task off his hands .

I think that there is a real deep-seated societal reason for a lot of the behaviours that are discussed on this board. Putting aside the sociopaths and sadists, who (sadly) existed throughout history, there is something specific to the way our society is structured that has allowed some relationships to become dysfunctional. We live in a deeply structurally unequal society on so many levels. Men and woman are ostensibly "equal"- but in reality this has led to some men feeling that they can relinquish responsibility for everything to their partners (money, child rearing, housework, etc) while they do very little indeed. Also the internet, games, and porn: so many escapes from the real world available at all times, on demand. This leads to a very entitled outlook - but the real world doesn't work like that. So such men become massively frustrated, they want everything on a plate, and society is not structured to place true value on families, loyalty, kindness, and altruism. This toxic brew of instant gratification for entertainment, lowering living standards, and a real dearth of positive role models for men, and a society and media that does not promote the things that make relationships strong - all this leads to the shit that we read about on here daily.

Think of all the threads about women who struggle to "pay their way" in relationships, when on maternity leave, when their partners refuse joint accounts and consider child care the woman's job? Women are in a classic catch 22- they are told that they are "liberated" so they try their best to do everything. Men are laughing because they can do what they want and society has absolved them of true responsibility. The phenomenon of the "cock lodger" is a modern one, facilitated by bad jobs, a lost social contract, no role models, and a frustrated sense of entitlement.

But at the same time, women have taken on more and more responsibility as to work, look beautiful, have children and give good blowjobs is the role that we have been prescribed. The inequality that this embodies lies behind so many problems. Fix that, make it as socially unacceptable for a man to be self centred as it is for a woman- and relationships will improve.
I think.

A thoughtful op on gender relationships, I want to contribute but I'm knackered, I'v got two children to feed, bath bed, homework, reading. I work full time, their father makes no financial or emotional contribution to their well being, I'm permanently stressed, he was financially and emotionally abusive during our relationship, i got away but at a cost. I have to work full time, we were in genuine poverty until I got a job.

When I picked up tonight my kids headmaster took me to one side and said that dad had complained to him that I'd hit the boys and he wanted a social services referral, he's made three 999 calls alleging abuse, all unfounded. I'm, permanently besieged. Why? I don't know, I know from support on places like this that it isn't my fault. All I can do is bring up my boys not to be like him

I remember posting on a thead a while ago about how my husband was helpful, interested in the DC, spent time with them etc, and immediately being accused by another poster of being domineering and bossing him about. Nothing could have been further from the truth. I was

I think it would be a good thing if people said more about the good men in the world, if only just to educate women about reasonable expectations so that they would just not put up with bad behaviour.

Here are my personal views..

-Abusive behaviour is very much the exception, and not the rule in relationships.

• Having said that, chances are high you know someone, or a number of people, who are in such relationships (or are unlucky enough to be in one yourself ).

• Abusive behaviour shows strikingly predictable, and stereotypical, attitudes and behaviours. Thus it's depressingly easy to guess, more or less, what has happened to an abused person, and to predict, with fair accuracy, what will happen next.

• Personal experience suggests it stems from some kind of personality issue (maybe NPD), blended with experiences in youth. Not one or the other alone. It shows itself in impaired conscience and impaired empathy. This is my personal opinion : others certainly differ in their views.

• Women can be controlling or abusive too. It's not common, but it's not non-existent either, and doesn't necessarily show itself in romantic relationships (it might instead be seen in other family relationships)

I think the best any parent can do is encourage their child to think of others, to develop their own personal and practical skills, and to value others as well as themselves.

Don't forget, for every thread about an abusive man, there are loads of posts in response from women in non-abusive relationships giving support and advice.

That alone would indicate that, whilst there do seem to be a lot of abusive men out there, they are in the minority.