Joint assets?

[airforsharon]

briefly, dh & I talked about separating last autumn, instigated by him. I didn't want us to split, but when I realized he had obviously been thinking about it, and planning, for a while I said fine, go. He then backtracked, said he didn't want to and we are still together, though tbh problems we were having before aren't really resolved.

He recently a large sum from his fathers estate, has paid off the mortgage on this house, and is now talking about - out of the blue - buying flat to let out, as an investment. I guess after what happened last year I don't quite trust him and am wondering if he has been advised to invest the money in this way so that, if he decides he does want to leave, it won't be considered a joint asset.

We've been married 14 years and have three young dcs.

I'm sorry of this sounds like I'm money-grabbing, I'm not. But I'm very concerned that he could leave us high and dry - I've been a sahm mum (very much with his approval as he is self employed and works stupid hours) for 7 years now, and have no savings of my own.

Personally I would say trust your instinct. So snoop - make jolly sure that you understand the finances of the business, and copy whatever paperwork you can of ALL finances, joint or DH sole, including copies of a pension funds, bank statements etc. Store these copies in a safe place outside the house. I believe that now under "the cheaters charter" that you would not be allowed to use this information officially in the event of a divorce, but it allows YOU to check his disclosure for completeness and accuracy if the worst happens. I snooped even further but then I was aware of an affair - it is unusual for men to simply want to leave.

My ex fought me bitterly over an asset which was acquired late in the marriage and to get settlement in court I didn't get 50%. I had to compromise. My very good barrister told me after settlement that I would never have got 50% in court, so you do need to be careful about the inheritance. My ex also did the dirty on me - I gave him joint money to help fund his new property and then he refused to repay, there were issues with Inland revenue etc. So please get your share of that inheritance into your accounts. It may get shared out equally in the end but you having control of that cash is easier than getting it paid over to you.

Let him buy the flat. IMO if you divorce, he will get the flat and you'll get the house :)

Several things occur to me.

1. You seem overly concerned to be "nice". One example of this is that he seems to have money in places you aren't aware of, and also plans to buy a flat for sole income purposes, and you are not raising the roof . Why not? You are NOT a lesser party.

1. I also think and learned from hard experience that you should trust your instinct . If something doesn't seem right, it very probably isn't.

1. This man does not seem to have your interests at heart- so what you know for sure might not be true and also there may be plenty that you don't know.

1. Men wanting to leave often do blame their partner. Especially when they have a guilty conscience. The effect of that is that you end up so focused in what you are apparently like, according to him, that you forget to appraise him too.

5 men rarely leave unless there is or has been someone else.

I suspect that over a period of time he has "trained" you to expect less than you are entitled to expect. And that you are only just beginning to realise it.

The trust has gone, hasn't it? And you don't feel very safe, as in secure, in the relationship. I think you should give that more thought and start to consider the possible implications.

Oh, and trust yourself.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts/experiences.

Dixie ha well, he did say last year that he would be the one to move out, he wouldn't uproot the dcs and would not contest their staying with me for the majority of the time.

onefewer I think I'm trying to be nice because I think it will get me further than not. If I do get angry or try and thrash things out, he shuts down and refuses to really discuss things. But yes, maybe I should be saying 'whoopee, can I buy a new (whatever) now?' or 'can we go on holiday?' or summat. He benefited from my, albeit much smaller, inheritance (half of it) but has offered me nothing at all. He would probably argue that he's investing it for our future, but if it's our future surely I should have some say? The house needs work - I would love a small chunk of it to pay towards that, for example.

Maybe in retrospect I have let him have an easy time - I've always trusted him to deal with the finances and never question him or demanded he does x,y or z with his (our!) income. But he has always talked to (until recently) me about big purchases etc - I've never felt there was anything underhand going on. If the bills are paid and the dcs cared for, I'm happy. I get a small allowance each month so I'm independent in the respect, but it's not enough for me to have been able to save. Hence I'm worried now.

What were the conditions (if any) under which the relationship carried on after he talked about ending it? Did either of you offer to change something? Did one of you cave for an easy life?

We said we would try and do more together - we went to a concert and for a meal, then that was it. Unless I suggest something, he rarely does. Since dcs came along we've got into habit of me going out with a friend, or him going out with his friends but rarely together(not many people I can ask to babysit). So that was one thing.

He said he would investigate parenting classes (a friend who works for homestart gave him information about various courses), would try much harder to deal with dcs in less shouty fashion, and would arrange counseling for us. I asked him to do that, as he was the one threatening to leave. I'd thought we were rubbing along pretty well so said if he really was that unhappy I'd leave him to arrange counseling with whoever/wherever he was happiest. He's done neither of these things, although is better for the most part with the dcs. He can be a very good dad, but his temper does have an impact.

From my experience find out as much as you possibly can even if it means snooping. There is so much that can be arranged/hidden when it comes to finances that the more you know the better and if he is trying to hide it from you or being very vague - there is a reason and it's not in your interests but it will certainly be in his

Is he aware that his threatening to leave is still affecting the relationship over a year on? Does he know - do you think - that it is colouring your view of everything he subsequently does? Or does he think that episode is all in the past and you should be over it by now? Because it's clear that you feel very insecure, don't trust him at all, suspect him of having ulterior motives and - worryingly - you seem subdued with all this rubbing along and keeping the peace rather than asserting yourself and risking some kind of confrontation. The old 'walking on eggshells'

Speak to a solicitor. The situation with regard to inheritances is not at all straightforward where all or part of the inheritance has been kept separate in some way from what might normally be regarded as marital assets. (eg it hasn't been parlayed into a joint home.) He might well be entitled to anything he's put separately.

cozie thankyou, yes I will do that.

cog honestly, I don't know for sure. Maybe yes he does think that because he has said he won't leave now then that's that and it's all fine. But he knows we've not really resolved any of the problems we've had. And in a way I do feel like we're living separately - my not knowing about his plan for inheritance as a good example.

A friend asked how things were a few days ago - I explained briefly and she said exactly the same as you, I'm in a curious limbo, walking on eggshells all the time in case he threatens to leave again. Though I think he's really not planning to leave because of the flat - he's thinking of buying a one or two bed, which would be no good to him if he intended it for his own use.

And subdued is a good word - that is how I feel. And on edge.

Air, if you have a get out plan it might pay to be nicer. It is likely to be a dangerous strategy if it means you have less and less access to plans and information, including financial.

It seems the power balance in your relationship is all in his favour. It isn't equal, in any sense. In those circumstances, "niceness", for which read going along with what he wants and keeping the peace, may get you far less of what you want than if you are more assertive.

I think you need to do a great deal more digging about what is in fact your business. You need to see a lawyer.

To be honest I think you need to kick him out before he goes anyway, which I don't doubt he will sooner or later. Better on your terms than his.

Walking on eggshells, feeling subdued, feeling insecure, saying nothing ... these are fear responses (probably as a result of his threat to end it) and, at the moment, they are influencing your behaviour negatively. You're exhibiting a lot of the characteristics of a bullying victim.

I think you have to be assertive & risk confronting him for the sake of your own self-respect and get past the fear that he'll carry through his threat. Otherwise you'll spiral down, lose your confidence and the 'limbo' will become 'paralysis'.

He might well be entitled to anything he's put separately

In most divorces the resources available are only just sufficient (or are insufficient) to meet the reasonable needs of all parties. In that situation the source of those resources and whether or not they have been kept separate carries little or no weight. Needs must be met. It is only if there is more than enough money to go round that this kind of factor comes into play. See, for example, Lord Nicholls in White v White - "However, in the ordinary course, this factor can be expected to carry little weight, if any, in a case where the claimant's financial needs cannot be met without recourse to this property."

Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

I've emailed a local solicitor to ask about having a free half hour chat with someone (can't remember if mentioned that yesterday or not) So hopefully I can arrange something in the next couple of weeks. I feel curiously guilty about it, but I think I do need to get some concrete advice now, if only for my own peace of mind.

He knows I hoped he would invest most of this money for the dcs and/or any emergencies and had made no claims on it myself. But he has completely shut me out of any decisions, which hurts - given that he apparently wants us to stay together - and is really unlike him.

And yes, you're right, I'm being a sap about the whole thing and I do need to be more assertive, even if that means bringing things to a head and maybe finding out about things I would rather be ignorant of for a quiet life.

I do intent to ask if he had considered giving me the same amount from his inheritance as he had from mine (or perhaps I should ask for half, as I gave him, and watch his hair stand on end). I need to start somewhere.

You sound much more confident. Yes, better to say what needs saying and risk not liking the answer than to carry on saying nothing and living in limbo. What do they say... better to live one day as a lion than spend a lifetime as a lamb?

Ask for glad, as he did you. You are equals in the relationship.

By the way, that curiously guilty feeling is common, I think. I used to have it too, and I've seen it on here from other women, where it is clear to others reading that they are in a very tricky spot in their marriages.

You don't need to treat him badly or disrespectfully. You are just standing confident on your feet and asking for fair treatment. His response will be telling.

we'll have family here for most of the weekend, so i'll probably have to wait until next week before broaching the subject.

He's said nothing more about the flat he viewed yesterday, though I suspect he didn't like it enough to make an offer. I had half a mind not to do or say anything until he goes away near the end of the month, then use that time to have a rootle through the finances. But if I do that, there's a chance he might buy a flat in the interim, and that will tie up all of the money. I don't know, because he's not telling me anything!

one my gut instinct is he will get shirty and say he's only investing it for the dcs future etc so there's nothing to discuss etc and why am I getting cross/being selfish/assuming the worst. Then I feel bad for thinking that....

I would love to do a poll on here, and ask how many gut feelings of 'he's up to something' turned out to be right.

The argument isn't about whether what his intentions are in buying a flat. The argument is about him buying anything without consulting you. The argument is about him thinking that your opinion is not necessary.

It is about power and equality, therefore.

By not consulting you he is making it clear he thinks he us superior to you.

Well the gut feeling was right, there was something afoot - I asked him tonight about his plans re this money and the flat and he admitted he did think that if he bought a flat he could move into it in the short term to give us some space. Ashamed to admit I got a bit shouty - I was furious that he had been thinking about that but not mentioned it to me, to allow me to think about it too.

one yes I said pretty much what you said in your post, amongst other things.

We've had a right old row/discussion and I think have resolved some things. Not sure where we go from here, but I'm confident there is nothing financially underhand going on.