Should I give up on my toxic sister?

[MightyMagnificentScarfaceClaw]

I have posted about my sister before and had good advice so please help me again! She has major issues with alcohol though is dry at the moment having been through detox and been put onto Antabuse. She has a series of convictions for drink driving, drunk in charge of a child, assault, assault on police, etc. She has lost her £50k+ job and is currently living off money she took from my mum who is in a care home. She has had her children removed and can only see them at a contact centre. She has had a couple of diagnoses of mental health conditions but this seems to change all the time - she seems to give her care professionals her own version of events which is always skewed and often completely made up, which then influences their diagnosis

My mum has always supported my sister so she can cope this stopped when my mum had a stroke three years ago and went into residential care. My sister spiralled badly and that's when the things naive happened. Most family and friends gave up on her a long time ago - she is very unpleasant especially when drunk and bombards people with abusive calls, texts etc. I have maintained contact on and off and really tried to help her. The most recent interaction was when I told her it wasn't acceptable to use mum's money to live on, and that she should look for a job. I spoke to friends in substance misuse and Probation and sent her advice on how to find work. She sent a long message back saying that I have bullied her, that this caused her mental illness, that her psychiatrist says I have caused trauma, and if I want to help I should stop abusing her. What has hurt most though is something else - I have always been very close to my sister's DCs, for a long time I was unable to have a successful pregnancy so they meant a lot to me. My sister has stopped me seeing them for the last few years. Now they live with their dads, and both dads agreed they would like them to have contact with me and others from our side of the family. After the recent Barney my sister told them they were not allowed to take them to see me. They have both said it's not her call, but she makes life difficult for people when she's angry with them and in the event we haven't met up yet.

My DH and my good friend who has known all of us for years say I should go no contact with my sister, as all other family members have done. DH says I get nowhere and end up as her punch bag, and friend says it's a cycle and nothing will change until I do. I read a link on a thread here about going NC and it made me cry - this is my little sister, who I held as a baby, who I taught to do fractions. Are there alternative courses of action which could make a difference? I have considered sending a long email with everything. I want to say, but the last time I did this I got an awful lot of nastiness in response. I do think that she has some form of mental health condition, possibly PD. But she is in control of her behaviour and chooses to treat me like utter shit, whenever I don't blindly support whatever she wants at the time. My Oldest DC is old enough to ask questions about the aunt and cousins we don't see. I don't feel I help my sister, and end up getting hurt. Please, any words of wisdom? Be as blunt as you like, I may need it. Thank you.

You can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.

If your little sister is still there, when she works on herself, she'll come back to you x

That's pretty much what my friend said kinky

This is a terribly difficult situation isnt it :( Its also difficult to disentangle. Sometimes the way one person perceives something is very, very different to the way another does.

Well from what you say, she claims that you are responsible for the, well, frankly mess she's made of her life. However, the evidence seems to be (from what you say) that no one else in the family or her ex'p's can cope with her except your mum, who is no longer in a position to. That does indicate rather clearly that for whatever reason the problem lies in the way she deals with people. Being on the end of endless abusive mails and texts tends to make every sane person draw a line in the end. You have to, for your own self-protection, life and normality. Even if you can see two different sides to the nasty person, both a good side and a bad.

One note; if someone is very badly off balance and, well frankly very badly behaved, then no matter how reasonable your email to her you're sadly unlikely to receive any rational response but rather a spewed up river of nastiness.

I am sorry but until she genuinely gets her feet on the ground and makes some peace with herself she is unlikely to be able to respond to you reasonably, no matter how much you love her and want to be there for her. You will receive the same treatment as everyone else in the family; long term unpleasantness (maybe varied by the odd dose of being nice?)

Again, I'm sorry to say this but I think that the best you can do is write her a mail saying you do not think you are helping her and that since she feels you have abused her all her life you feel the best thing is to withdraw for now. You don't think you have [that's very important to say, to establish your own right to your own view], but clearly you have different views. Then say that if ever she does want a relationship on level terms then you will be there for her.

I'm uncertain about suggesting this, but you could even offer to go along to an appointment with the psychiatrist to try to sort things it. It may very well be utterly pointless from her pov, but it may give her psychiatrist an insight into the sort of person you are and therefore something of the bigger picture of her relations with her family. I don't know how perceptive all psychiatrists are. They are trained to pick up a lot but they can only see short snapshots of a person and a clever and manipulative person can give a very one sided view quite effectively. However, this may not be the best of ideas, I suggest it only tentatively. Your own instinct or wiser heads may say noooooooo!

Hi Mighty,

re your comment:-
"My DH and my good friend who has known all of us for years say I should go no contact with my sister, as all other family members have done. DH says I get nowhere and end up as her punch bag, and friend says it's a cycle and nothing will change until I do"

I am sorry to write this but they are right. You also need to get off the merry go around that is your sister's alcoholism. Enabling her as she has been in the past has not helped anyone let alone her.

Do not contact her at all.

You have been profoundly affected by all this albeit in different ways to the alcoholic herself. Nothing you do or say now will make the slightest difference to her alcoholism.

The 3cs re alcoholism are always prescient:-
You did not cause this
You cannot cure this
You cannot control this

Like many posts of this type its mainly written about the alcoholic. Put yourself first for a change.

You cannot help anyone who does not want your help; I do not mean this unkindly but you are too close anyway to be of any real use to her. Also she does not want your help and support. You need to completely detach from your sister because she will otherwise drag you down with her.

She has no right either to stop you from seeing her children particularly now that they live with their respective Dads.

I would suggest you contact Al-anon as they are helpful to family members of problem drinkers.

Thank you meerkat that's a lovely sympathetic response. I'm not the only person my sister has blamed - it's been her exH, various exPs, our other sibling or others in the past, whoever she's angry with at that point. She does seem to see people as either all perfect or all evil, which makes me think it is personality disorder.

I'm pretty sure she wouldn't let me go to a psych appointment. Manipulative is exactly the right word, though I don't know how much she means to me iyswim. She has moved between four different local authority areas for her physical and mental health care and criminal justice, so has avoided anyone having a really long term view of her needs. She also has the sort of professional background to know what to say to convince medical people. I definitely think it would help if the people deciding on her care got an objective picture of the things she tells them about her life (she told me her substance misuse worker was in tears when she told her about our childhood and I was genuinely as to what on earth she could have said!) but that's exactly why I don't think she will let that happen.

Maybe you're right though very about NC until something major changes, but with the door always open. That idea makes me feel more hopeful than just giving up on her, and if it is PD then I hope it would be clear that I am rejecting her behaviour, not her. In fact I think I will be very brave and go and draft the email now.

Honestly I would not send her any e-mails. It could well be thrown right back at you leaving you feeling even worse. I am concerned she will use your good intention here to hurt you yet again. A mistake people make her is going back for more ill treatment in the forlorn hopes that change will take place. It often does not.

It is not your fault either that your sister is an alcoholic.

Thanks Attila. You said much the same to me previously under another name and I did get hold of Al Anon then. I got really fantastic support, my sister did AA too for a while and that was the best things have been. Unfortunately it got worse since detox - her alcohol support team don't agree with the AA steps programme and do a lot of one to one therapy instead, but this seems to focus her on blaming others rather than the AA which as taking responsibility and clearing up the mess. But again that's about her, I just wanted to let you know that you really helped me before.

Yes it does always seem to be about her, yes I am not helping her and even yes there's some element of enabling in my relationship with her to be really honest - not with the drinking or taking mum's money, but in not holding her to account for abusing me. I think I agree with everyone about needing to detach, whether it's with an email telling her so or not.

But yes both dads want the kids to see me and my DCs, and they want it too - have had phone conversations with them, and my sister can't stop it. What she can do is make life very difficult for the dad's, but they are both pretty good at putting DCs needs first.

Cross post Attila. I'm not sure I will send the email now but drafting it got some lent up feelings out. However it has always led to a flood of further nastiness in the past. I would like her to know that the door remains open, but I don't think now is the time. Coming up to Christmas is usually a flash point as it brings home that she isn't with her DCs, and this year she has lost an awful lot.

Thank you all for your Advice and kindness.

If it is a personality disorder, then it will be a long hard road for her to change. Depending on which one, some are more amenable to treatment than others. If she sees things in blackandwhite then it may be borderline PD. Mind you I think that sometimes we're too quick to diagnose PD's nowadays. From the sound of it actually your sister may just be, to be blunt, in a pattern of screwing up her life and blaming everyone else.

Whether it is a PD or not, nothing can change until she is ready to begin to genuinely change. From what you say, she's not at that point yet; she's actually been (perhaps unconciously) very clever about moving between different health professionals to get support without actually being willing to even attempt to change.

It sounds as if she is at least mid-30's and maybe more. It is possible to change later on but it does get harder and harder as people become more themselves with age. Again, partly a matter of the -will- to change needing to be there. It might be wise to look at the possibility that she will carry on on the road she has been walking for many years. But by making it clear the door is always open if she really wants to try, then she will know deep in the back of her mind there is someone there who loves her and will be there for her, if she wants it.

ok, cross post :)

I can see the point about the email unleashing more nastiness (and about the timing, specially if she's lost a lot this year). Perhaps you'll decide not to send anything and simply quietly fade away - there's a phrase in pamela's stephenson's book about Billy Connolly where she uses the phrase "disengage with love" which is a nice one.

Anyway, if you do mail her after xmas, you can always say that you are open to her in the future but any angry / nasty mails or texts will not be replied to. Then ask your husband to filter them for you, they won't get to him in the same way that they will you hopefully.

What meerka wrote.

Its okay to back away from your sister. You need to protect your own self here.

I would leave the door open but do not rush headlong through it yourself. Rescuing and trying to save people from themselves simply does not work out. Your sister has also seemingly done a fine job of manipulating those around her like the alcohol support team who have enabled her too.

Clear and firm boundaries re your sister are essential and need to be firmly maintained.

Do see your sister's children when you are able to; their fathers are in favour of you seeing them and these children also need to see positive role models.

Thank you meerka . She did have a diagnosis of borderline PD but it was changed later to Acute Stress Disorder. I looked up the latter as it's new to me and it's supposed only to last a few months so I'm not sure about that one. BPD seems to fit her to a T to me, but I know other people with that diagnosis don't behave in the same way. I don't see a will to change at the moment, sadly. "Disengage with love" is exactly it, thank you very much for that. I don't want to cut her out, or punish her or stop caring. But I do need to stop enabling her to abuse and blame me, and protect myself and my family.

And thank you Attila too. Yes her boys really need some consistent caring people in their lives, they have suffered a lot these past few years

The mental health teams will have a very good idea of how she's distorted her history and misrepresented her family: she'll be doing exactly the same in her relationships with them. You've had excellent advice and I think you're making a good decision. Hope you'll have a happy and peaceful Christmas.