What will harm my children more?

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I'm not sure if I'm posting in the right section but am desperate for some advice, any views opinions or shared similar experiences would be very much appreciated.

My DC have been very upset again recently due to their DF's behaviour. My eldest has wet the bed and written down some very disturbing thoughts and fears he has from the last visit to exP. On their last visit, exP had a heated text debate with my DM and completely over reacted, shouting, swearing, punching things, and crying to mention a few. My eldest DC was hiding under the sink in their bathroom then came out to find exP bleeing and tried to help him bandage it. This behaviour lasted throughout the whole weekend, with exP sending me extremely abusive text messages in between, which I ignored. When DC came home they were so upset, I had a long chat with them and my eldest, who was sobbing then wrote down some of his feelings.

ExP has a history of being abusive to me and when I refused to have him back, threatened to harm himself, DC and me, many times. However this calmed when he met his DP and I thought and hoped that things would be different. My eldest DC has said that he remembers very specific things and the behaviour on their last visit brought back those memories and really frightened him. I haven't spoken to exP about the last visit. He will fail to see that he done anything at all wrong and will blame it on me/DM/ whoever he can. However at that point I had serious concerns about them going back again and spoke to various people in RL for advice. The general consensus being that the children had to make their own minds up about whether to continue contact, and to keep ensuring that they know they don't have to go and can come home at any point. I even came up with a 'saftey word' that my DC could use when they speak to me, and if they aren't happy I can go to collect them.

The fact that a safety word was ever needed for my children makes me feel sick to the stomach. When the time came for the following visit to see their father, exP refused to see them, much to my relief. However eldest DC was so, so upset, he sobbed and sobbed and nearly vomited, it took me 2 hours to calm him down. ExP had told DC that I was clearly being unreasonable (with his idea of limited access) and that he didn't think DC cared so wasn't sure he wanted to see them at all. He told eldest DC that he's "exactly like your mother". Youngest DC wasn't bothered at all, she didn't really want to go and was quite happy to stay home.

Both DCs have said that when they are with exP, he doesn't get out of bed until nearly lunchtime, leaving them downstairs alone. He often shouts at them to get their shoes on and says he is taking them home "lets give your mother what she wants shall wee" etc. He often tells them that they will grow up to see exactly what I'm like and will never want to see me again. He often puts me down to the children, that doesn't bother me, what does is that it upsets them.

Anyway, what beings me here is that I have, since this all happening (and it really is in a nutshell- it's just too complicated and messy to get everything in) I have received a letter from mediation, saying that exP wants to go back (we've been twice before). I really don't want to go, I don't see what benefit it will have since he already has access and the only time it is disrupted is when he chooses not to see them. I don't want to give him another opportunity to try to belittle, manipulate and control me either. And most importantly I'm not sure I want my DCs to carry on having contact with him when he is having such a negative impact on them and frightening them. I have spoken to a solicitor, who said that I don't have to go to mediation and if it went to court I would likely get legal aid due to the history of abuse- which is something as I am on a very low income and receive no help from exP financially.

Can anyone offer an opinion of what they would do in this situation? My fear is that if they carry on with contact that they are going to become more emotionally abused, confused and upset. And that if I stop them from going they will miss him and be disturbed from that. He is their father, they love him, but my concern is their emotional well-being and I'm scared of making the wrong choice. Apologies for the long and perhaps confusing post, if you have come this far then thank you.

I'm sorry to rush my answer but I have to get to school.

How old are the children.

Is a supervised contact centre appropriate?

No they should not be staying with him, he is not a responsible adult.

Will try to answer you more fully tonight OP

I agree with onetired

I won't able to chat too much until tonight either as about to go to school too, DC are 6 and 10. I have concerns over a contact centre but perhaps because I'm not well informed. Thank you OTM.

Personally, I would keep my DCs home, explain that I had made a decision for their benefit, reassure them that they were not at fault, and then talk to my solicitor about reducing contact to supervision only. Yes it's not right that your DCs have to have a safety word.

I would stop contact and hire a solicitor he doesn't sound safe to be around children.

My first instinct is that leaving the decision up to your children isn't the sure way to protect them. I think you need to take what they think they want out of the situation (as you know abuse and stress will warp their view anyway) and so whatever you think is in their best interest.

It doesn't sound like a very healthy place for them to be and you are the only one who can protect them.
My Mum used to say similar things about my Dad when I was growing up and it only served in making me resent her-so I wouldn't worry too much about it harming your relationship with your children. However, it was an awful situation for me to be in as before I saw my Mum's true colours, I felt torn.

Your children will crave love and acceptance from their Dad so will keep putting themselves in the firing line. It sounds like it's already having a very negative effect on them so I think you need to take action.

Can I ask why you didn't go and get your children when he was texting you those messages over the weekend? Weren't you worried about his mental state when looking after the children?
It sounds like you need some help as obviously the abuse you've suffered has meant you find it difficult to deal with your ex. Something will have to give though or your children will be living with these scars forever. Time really is of the essence. They need to know you will protect them at all costs!

I really really feel for you, I hope you find a quick resolution for the sake of your children!

I would stop contact too.

In fact, I left home when exH threatened to harm me and DS and he has never had unsupervised contact with DS again.
They still have contact through Skype, that I monitor for abuse and cut it off if boundaries are stepped on, and the occasional visit.

I'd tell him that given the last events, I was cutting unsupervised contact and tell him to arrange a contact centre if he wants to see the children.

In the meantime, I'd be reporting this to whoever may support you. I'm not sure who, but I'd be contacting social services, for example, for advice on how to keep the children safe from him.

Stop contact. Inform him in writing (letter or email - keep a copy) that you're doing so due to concerns about their welfare and safety. Say in the letter that you will be prepared to make the dcs available for contact in a contact centre if he wishes to make arrangements. If he does so, then do facilitate it. Otherwise, don't do anything. If he wants to take you to court, the letter shows that you are acting reasonably.

Just to reassure you on contact centres - I'm sure they vary, but the one we used was lovely, bright, sunny, full of toys. It was possible to self-refer even without having a contact order.

It's awful being dragged through court by an unreasonably exh - I'm in the midst of a case that's dragged on for the last year - but in the circumstances, I think you need to do this to protect your dcs. He has threatened to harm them - you need to take that very, very seriously.

I spent 10 months trying to make contact work between my kids and their dad and all the time their emotional state was going down hill, they were acting out at school and having the most terrifying nightmares. Eventually I went to the GP and asked for counselling for the kids. The doctor advised me that the only way to get proper help for the kids was to tell everyone everything and to hand the decisions over to the professionals so I spoke to the school, the health visitor and the nursery and accepted everyone's offers to refer to children's services and then because of some of the things that had happened I called the police and made a report to them.

Everyone recommended stopping contact to protect myself and the kids. I was advised that sending the kids somewhere I thought was unsafe for them in any way would have an effect on how strong a protective force children's services believed me to be.

The kids haven't seen their dad for five months, they have been assessed by lots of professionals who have seen a great improvement in them and I do not regret the decision at all. We no longer have nightmares every night or screaming raging outbursts at school or spend whole days with tears and shouting.

A month ago Children's services closed the case for the children, they were coordinating services, because they and all the other people involved believed me to be a good, committed parent who would do what was best for my kids so I feel I made the right decision.

The weirdest thing in it all is that the kids have only asked twice about seeing their dad, the first two weeks they should have gone they asked but I told them they weren't going and they haven't asked since. We have bought Christmas presents for him which I will post for them in the same way i do all their other relatives and I never bad mouth him around the kids but they are so much happier without contact.

A court will at some point, I'm sure, insist that he has the right to see the kids and they will be pushed towards him but hopefully the gap in contact and the counselling that is hopefully starting in a few weeks will have given the kids some strength to cope with him.

That's a story rather than an opinion really sorry, I hope you find the right answer for your kids

Thank you Carryon, I didn't go to get my children because the text messages to me began on the Saturday evening, they were completely aimed at me and I had no idea that he was behaving the way he was. I knew that his DP was there too and, perhaps naively with hindsight, assumed that although he was angry it wouldn't be obvious to our DC. I didn't want to turn up and make a situation worse with all mary hell breaking loose when I had no idea what he was doing. If I picked my children up every time he sent abusive texts to me they wouldn't go, he doesn't behave violently every time they go. This is the first outburst like this since he has been with his DP. He doesn't get up till late when they are there, he does put me down to them and play mind games, but this is the first I've heard of him punching things etc while they are there.

I agree, action needs to be taken and fast. My worries are how I go about it and the consequences either way.

Thank you to freeman, biblio and Lweji too, I really have to get to school but will respond tonight

is it court ordered contact? if so you need to stop contact as you have reasonable excuse go to solicitor and get the ordder changed.
sounds simialr to my ex.

contact centre is fine, tho the older one might get bit bored however couple hours in safe place is preferable to this kind of contact. the one we used was safe entry system, bg room with toys, books, baord games, soft play for younger kids, snooker table for older etc. www.naccc.org.uk go vist your local ones and ask .

go to gp and ask for referral to family therPist for your DC - emphasise the bed weettting and crying and say that they are confused and anxious children AND need some help and support. he will always be their dad and they need support in developing tools to deal with him thru out their life...

doing this also shows you proactive and can tell a court that you working with Dc to resolve what they want in terms of contact. in any case it sounds as tho they v confused by their dad's behaviour -they need some helpw ith working it through and some support. eg a therpauist can help dc draw up rules and wants during contact, and if dc want, can bring dad in . (my dc found it useful (age 10 and 12 when they went) but did not want to involve dad as felt he wouldnt lsiten anyway... youngest dd still seeing him oldest dd refuses. ds wants tos e e him but some issues aorund that too.

agree alsow it other psoter -if you do send them adn this is going on you msut go collect them.

why was your mother i assume dm is your mother??? engaging with him at all ?

has the abuse been reported to police ? GP? anyone? you need a crime ref number .

you telling solicitor about it might not be enough.

aalso do you ahve evidence of the wall puinching ad injutires of dp?
you need hard evidence

in terms of DC their anguish and upset is enough to take to GP and that counts as evidence..then bring in third party to talk to them eg psychologist

i agree mediation can be oointless with this kind of person .

but soemties you ahve to go along to tick it off - take stock phrases that you w ill repeat when he goes off on one ... "i would like my dc to have contact with their dad but it needs to be safe and secure and they should not witness agression" ""they cannot have contact if their dad is punching walls"

dont get dragged into argument

Do leave it up to the DC. That is not fair on them.

Sorry - do not leave it up to them!

I would stop the contact as it currently stands - it doesn't sound good for the children at all. I say this as someone who has concerns about my children's contact with their father, but not on this scale. I think you need to seek legal advice about future contact.

It sounds an awful situation and my heart goes out to you - I know what you mean about feeling like there's no point in talking to ex about their behaviour, mine is the same - has no idea how bad his behaviour is and the effect it has on the children, and becomes aggressive when I raise any concerns. Hope you manage to find a way though this.

Some good info on here :)

Its not a question of making the choice breaking as there is only one option available to you. Your children are not safe with this man, what if they wanted to phone you (& use the safety word) but he stopped them phoning. There's no point having a safety word if they can't talk to you because they are hiding under a sink & trying to keep out of the way.

Go to the solicitor or the CAB & find out what legal aid is available & what you can do to protect them. I've not used a contact centre but there's many on here who do, what issues do you have with them?

I agree with the poster who said that it is not up to the children whether they visit him, this is not a decision for under 10's to make at all. You have to make this decision for them & tell them its for their own safety. They can still see him, but it must be in a controlled setting with other impartial adults around where they are not at risk.

I'm not trying to scare you but if SS get involved then they will assess your competency in taking care of them & protecting them & they probably won't be happy with safe words & the visit you described above. Your 10 yo is bedwetting & having disturbing thoughts after a visit to him! If your children keep entering situations like that (you are letting them) then they may take a long hard look & decide you are not able to keep them safe. If you let the 10 year old decide & he does want to keep visiting despite the sink/bleeding incident then you are basically saying to both child & ex that you have no power over what happens to the child. You need to act & now before somebody else gets SS involved, the school perhaps or a family member anonymously.

If you are unable to deal with exP, & I fully understand that, then get legal people involved who won't care about exP's reaction or his threats to them. Do not contact him & let the arrangements about access be completed by your solicitor so you don't have to deal with him at all.

Also perhaps you need some support yourself, this can't be easy xx

Thank you for all your replies. I'll try to answer some of the questions raised but sorry if I miss any out.

The solicitor said that my gp could confirm that he is aware of a history of abuse, although the police were involved on occasions and sent out a lady from DV help etc, it was more than 2 years ago. So gp would be the best avenue to take on proving for legal aid. I have an appointment next week.

There is no court ordered contact, our arrangements were decided at mediation with nothing legal drawn up. I'm assuming the reason exP has requested mediation again is because he wants to take them away on holiday and perhaps more time at Christmas too.

The reason I found out that exP was behaving in this way was because eldest DC wrote it all down when he came home. I guess this could be used as evidence should there be a need? Had I know that anything of this was going on I would have been there like a shot. I spoke to his teacher at school about him having a particularly difficult weekend and that he had written some things down. Teacher then kept an eye on him throughout week and kept offering him to go to talk to someone within the school, he declined. He has seemed a little better at home and school since writing down his thoughts and opening up more. I have spoken to gp before, in the summer, about trying to get him some counseling. He had issues going on at school with bullies and wasn't coping well, I explained to gp that he had a hard time with his father etc previously and felt that he would benefit from having someone professional to talk to. His advice was to use the avenues within the school and talk to them. I did and my son found it very helpful, however the lady he would talk to has now left so will talk to gp next week again.

I'm not sure if it is relevant or not but my DM got into a dispute with exP because I had used her phone to send a text in the morning (mine had died). It was about exP not letting youngest DC go to a party on the Sunday, he never lets them on his weekend as he says it is him time and that's that. Therefore they miss out on time with their friends and of course it's not nice going back to school when everyone has gone to a friends party and not them. The responses weren't nice and my DM ended up in a dispute with him over that, I had gone home.

I really do appreciate your responses, your own stories of similar situations have been particularly helpful. Would I be able to ask that he sees DC at his mothers or similar? I'm just trying to think or ways that some kind of contact could carry on whilst keeping things as 'normal' as possible for DC. I know my eldest will really struggle with NC, I broached it with him last night. I told him my concerns and suggested that perhaps it would be better if things were done differently for a while until exP stopped behaving in ways that upset him. That perhaps by seeing him at Grandmas or somewhere similar for a while will give exP the time to start behaving differently and things will get better. He went ballistic, he said he doesn't want things to be like that, that exP will never be any different and that the punching things etc was a one off. He's scared of things changing and I can understand that. He did say that he understood why I was worried and that he knows I'm trying to do the best by them but that he just wanted to carry on seeing his DF.

In light of that, this
*"go to gp and ask for referral to family therPist for your DC - emphasise the bed weettting and crying and say that they are confused and anxious children AND need some help and support. he will always be their dad and they need support in developing tools to deal with him thru out their life...

doing this also shows you proactive and can tell a court that you working with Dc to resolve what they want in terms of contact. in any case it sounds as tho they v confused by their dad's behaviour -they need some help with working it through and some support. eg a therpauist can help dc draw up rules and wants during contact, and if dc want, can bring dad in"*

• seems really helpful. They do need to know that it isn't ok to feel scared or upset when they are there and they are entitled to a say in making things ok with their visits.

So, I guess now I wait to see what gp says next week, hope that some support can be offered for DC and fingers crossed to help with legal aid.

I had another letter from mediation today too, the same one really, I need to respond but unsure what with until next week.

You really aren't under any obligation to say yes to the mediation. It's absolutely fine to say no under these circumstances.

It's excellent that you've got a plan in place. Yes, if you think your exP will behave better with his mother's, and she agrees, it is possible to specify that mediation must be supervised by her. It depends how much you trust her - whether she might let him take off with the dcs without telling you.

Surely his mother would always prioritise her son over you or the grandchildren? Is she really a safe option?

Sorry ontired, cross post there. I know, and you have highlighted that I may not be deemed a mother if I let it continue. It's frightening but true. I will and am protecting them no matter what, I won't allow them to go back to visit until things drastically change. I am worried about eldest DC especially, coping with it though. He is a very sensitive little boy. Thank you again

And again- I'm not the fasted typer. I'm sure his DM would prioritise her son over me, every time, but she wouldn't allow him to be physically abusive in any way while they are there.

You're not slower, you just have more to write than me :)