DV course enabling "relationship" where woman had to terminate after assault.

[AchyFox]

I was shocked by this piece on PM, Radio 4 (today around 1730 (long piece)) (No link yet)

It was a general piece about a DV course, however there was a pretty shocking case where:

Woman's partner kicked her hard in the stomach while pregnant.
She had a termination due to fears about the amount of damage the foetus had suffered.
It was clear DV had occurred in the past also.
He was originally charged with offences, however, all charges were dropped against him at her request, and she has remained with him.

He went on a DV course, where there was also full liaison with her from the course.

I can't help but feel that the course is acting as an enabler and am shocked that officially sanctioned DV courses can, in effect, support such a dysfunctional situation.

Surely she needs help leaving this situation not some course that is supporting it ?

The men are screened before being accepted onto those courses. They don't act as enablers. The perpetrator is not being supported. I don't think you know much about this course because you wouldn't be against it if you did.

What do you suggest we do with abusive men then?

The question I'd be asking is why CPS allowed those charges to be dropped.

The DVIP courses are hardcore.

It depends on the charges and the evidence:

CPS policy on prosecuting dv

What happens when the victim withdraws support for the prosecution or no longer wishes to give evidence?

4.4 Sometimes a victim will ask the police not to proceed any further with the case, or will ask to withdraw the complaint. This does not necessarily mean that the case will therefore be stopped — we will first consider what other evidence is available.

4.5 As a general rule we will prosecute all cases where there is sufficient evidence and there are no factors preventing us from doing so.

4.6 If the victim has decided to withdraw support, we have to find out why. This may involve delaying the court hearing to investigate the facts and decide the best course of action.

I heard that piece and my hackles rose. The bloke was going on about how it was a bad experience for him and how lucky he was to get a second chance.... awful. If a savage dog had done what he'd done, it would have been put down

I've not heard the feature. Normally radio 4 news is pretty balanced and thoughtful. However having heard a 'but is it really rape?' discussion if they're drunk when discussing children!! I wonder if BBC news has been infiltrated by MRA

I think it was one of those pieces where you listened to the people involved in their own words and your own judgement fills in the 'balance'.

However having heard a 'but is it really rape?' discussion if they're drunk when discussing children!!

What...? They were discussing the morality of having sex with drunk children? Am I reading that right?

What do you suggest we do with abusive men then?

Well, that is the question. Jail? Heavy community service? Plus the course.

NotSo, no I don't feel the perpetrator's behaviour is being supported.

I feel that the woman in is being given the message that this situation can be managed and "fixed", and a functional relationship can feasibly emerge, by individuals who are "experts" in the field.

Should they really give this message even if implicit ?

They are enabling the toxic illusion that something worthwhile can ever emerge from staying with this man.

tinmug it was Today Programme this morning about a report published by to office of the Children's Comissioner saying reporting that girls as young as 11 are having sex.
I'm going to listen to it on I player and complain to Feedback the Radio 4 er, feedback programme.

I heard the last 20m. The denial minimisation and blaming of everything and everyone else was sickening.

I've seen 'mentors' they are the same. I don't believe that these kinds of 'men' can be 'fixed'

Charges should always be brought when violence is present.

I heard this too and was somewhat about how effective a 17 week course could be.

Apparently only 3 of the 70 men who have attended have re-offended (IIRC) however those men which were interviewed seemed very well versed in evasion-of-what-I've-done speak.

Having said that, I do hope it turns these men around. The Relationships boards here show how much it's needed.

even on the good courses...(which are at least 23 weeks long and include separate support for victim)s the maximum positive outcome is said to be 15%. Re-offending is a blunt instrument of measure as many would say that the courses whilst not seeking to enable men DO sometimes give DV perpetrators "better" lines of defence and more subtle approaches to control and coerce.

They are not great at fixing the men...but they are better than nothing and all approaches like this rely on the willingness of the individual to change and to acknowledge wrong doing...some dv perpetrators will "see the light" most won't BUT...attendance on a course DOES validate the reality of the victim(s) and bring a real sense of being listened to and believed...and this is valuable as well as the direct support that should and mostly does happen.

They are expensive courses and there is currently a research project into their efficacy from the victim's point of view....it will make depressing reading I suspect...and then probably the Govt. will withdraw funding and there will be no place to put the people who perpetuate domestic crimes....I would prefer they are supported because they are the best thing we currently have, even if they are poor.

did you notice they are now planning courses for female perpetrators, too.

My views were mixed; I suspect some of the speakers were getting off lightly.

The one thing I thought might have had impact was when they had to roleplay how their victim felt. That seemed to affect one individual significantly.

I guess there will be more academic assessment as to the efficacy of these courses.

I heard the program, and I was really surprised at my reaction to it.

It was the part when they were talking about role playing their partners, and there was a man who seemed genuinely astonished about thinking that his partner would have an emotional reaction - like it had never occured to him to consider her feelings before.

And yes, you could say that these men are monsters, and most of the time I'd be first in the queue to condemn them, but all I could think is, what type of child turns into a man like this?

What type of person has to be coerced by the threat of prison NOT to beat up their partner, because it has never occured to them that doing so is wrong? It just made me so sad and really quite despondent that people like this could exist and that a child has grown up without anyone showing them how to be a good person...

My reaction to that same 'astonishment' is that these men are good talkers. Unless they are clinically psychopathic, totally incapable of empathy and have lived in a bubble away from the rest of society, of course they know what they are doing is wrong. But it plays well for the people running the course for the perpetrator to say 'Gee... I never realised that hurling her against a wall would hurt her feelings'...

Cogito, you're probably right, in fact you're almost definitely right. But how depressing that these men (and women as well I presume) exist.

I still can't get over the fact that CPS dropped the charges against the man who kicked his pregnant wife in the stomach - he knew exactly what he was doing to do that...

I think it's depressing on a lot of levels. That someone like that can reach adulthood and think it's OK to mistreat anyone or 'lose it' is one. Another is that they get given second and third chances by the very people they've attacked. As a society we have to cling to the idea that someone is capable of reform. But in the context of a personal relationship I'd rather much more time and resource was spent on encouraging victims to have the confidence to walk away.

CES +1 for encourage people to walk away.
Lot of it is confidence in themsleves, mind.

If your parents were victims of DV, doesn't it tend to normalise it in victims eyes?

CPS appears to be a deeply misogynistic entity, which reflects a deeply misogynistic society, which in turn validates and reinforces that misogyny. A woman victim has to be whiter than white and have cast iron evidence in order for CPS to consider prosecution, because juries are inclined to disbelieve women and rationalise male violence and abuse.
Fucking outrageous.

Eirik
Hear! Hear!
witness what is happening to Nigella Lawson on the front page of the f*ing broadsheets!

I don't accept that CPS is institutionally misogynistic. Prosecutions for DV are pretty successful. It's getting the crime to court that is often the bigger hurdle. Very frustrating for police and CPS alike every time a victim says they'd rather not press charges

I agree Callani but it is even sadder that a woman somehow ends up feeling that she should stay with a man who has kicked her in the stomach whilst pregnant.

No good can come of this "relationship", surely ?

How would anyone be able to contemplate being pregnant again in those circumstances ?

Yet the situation is validated by the DV course liaising with her to check everything is "OK" rather than her being properly supported to leave the situation.

If the scheme is that successful, that's great.
I still hate the idea that the woman is part of the cure. It's practical, it works, yet...
It's not logical, but it doesn't seem like a healthy resolution.

Totally agree, Achy - and I think Cogito is right (yet again) in that the funds would be far better spent supporting the women to leave these partners (maybe giving them a laptop, internet and access to MN would be a good start)

Have thought about this a lot today, and I can't help but feel that by checking with the partners that they're not being physically abused, the course is pretty much stating that's all these women should accept the situation they're in - yes he may come in and shout and scream, but as long as he doesn't physically throw you to the floor, then everything's fine...

Ugh, horrible, and those poor women and they're children hoping this course will be the cure.