WWYD - about respecting dc's personal space

[PassTheSherry]

Two things:

a) A friend of mine, who is lovely, and generous, often gives my 4yo dd treats, in return for kisses and cuddles. It's very light-hearted. "Where's my kiss then? And a cuddle please!" She does it out of affection for my dd as she thinks she's really cute. Dd looks to me, and I say "Go on then" - because it's polite, and I don't want to hurt my friend who means no harm. BUT I also kick myself and feel like why should she, because if she wanted to hug my friend she does it spontaneously anyway - not because she is offering her sweets and demanding it.

Am I taking it all a bit seriously? I KNOW my friend doesn't mean anything - I just feel a bit confused because if a man did this I would be rather creeped out, but really it should be the same for any adult, right? It's not quite the message I want dd to learn, but don't know what to do about it.

2. This is FIL - dd2 has mentioned a few times in the last couple of weeks that "Grandad tickles my toes, but I don't like it because he doesn't stop when I tell him to." I think what happens is, he tickles her, she laughs, and he carries on, but then it goes on a bit too long, and when she's had enough and says "Stooooooppppp!" he carries on because she's still laughing. Without realising it's starting to stress her out.

I've talked to her and told her she must say it with a serious face and tell him to stop. She says he doesn't listen. She has brought this up about 3 separate occasions now, unprompted, so I know she is genuinely a bit bothered. Last night she mentioned it and DP was there too, and 6yo dd1 was there backing her up - saying that she asked FIL to stop "about thirteen times and he didn't listen."

For those of you who are familiar with another thread - we already have issues with ILs over favouritism - MIL favouring dd1, but FIL is supposed to be more of an ally for dd2 if anything, but seems there are issues there too! Argh.

You need to talk to the people involved rather than attempting to police the situation by always being in the room or whatever.

You aren't taking control of this at all- you seem more worried about offending people.

Think about the messages you are giving to your daughter- that mum always has to be there to protect her, but in a very passive aggressive way- rather than mum being assertive on her behalf and calling other people on their behaviour.

lavenderhoney My dc have an uncle who is like this. I can't bear him. The dc dislike him intensely and he doesn't care they dislike him and he makes a point of grabbing them, wanting a kiss, tickling - as he knows it annoys them and me. I never leave him alone with the dc and avoid him when possible. " its just his way" they say but its not an excuse for being a twat.

But this is not the situation with dd2 at all - she loves FIL and says so. Gravitates towards him on visits. Tells him she misses him on the phone. Initiates play with him (even the tickling), loves it when he reads them stories. It's not black and white! If either dc's disliked him intensely then of course it would be very clear, what to do. He isn't mean to them generally - he interacts with them, engages them in his gardening, bakes with them, they LIKE him, especially dd2. It's just this thing with the teasing/tickling which dd2 has mentioned that isn't so good, but as she has mentioned it a few times, I do know I need to say something. Not denying that. I think I will say something along the lines as you suggested.

I just don't see why the choice is either to put up and shut up, OR to alienate. Why can't there be a middle ground? That's where I struggle.

annhathaway I think you misunderstand. I'm not going to police the situation by staying in the room all the time with them as that's just silly. Am I going to follow them everywhere even if they're playing? Course not. But if I'm in the vicinity, dd2 can come to me if FIL is over-doing the tickling and tell me, and then I will have a word with FIL and sort it out. You may have a point about being careful not to give dd2 the idea that mum has to be there to protect her, but she is only 4 and I want her to know that I have her back. I'm not going to follow her around like her personal bodyguard, but I WILL be around to intervene if need be. Not catching up later, when someone decides to bring it up after the event. I will also have a better idea about what happened, rather than just hearing it from dd2 who sometimes may feign being wronged without seeing her own part. (I've been with her in the school playground, and she's come to me about being chased too much by a friend, when I saw with my own eyes her 'tagging' them and running off).

Yes I am worried about offending people... But I would disagree that I worry MORE about it, than about dd2's well-being. This is our/their family - they bring a lot of positive things to the dc's lives, they do stuff with them that we don't do so much at home - grandparenty treat type of things that are actually really nice, and relieves the pressure off us to be all-providing, socially, financially, educationally. They have a valuable role and are important people in dc's lives. I think they are part of the dc's network of support. As parents, we are the main support of course, but to be completely honest, they get more opportunities and a variety of experiences through having contact with their grandparents than if it was just myself and DP alone. We COULD limit contact if need be, but it would be a major loss (for them) and I'm not sure the negatives of that outweigh the positives either.

So...I think I probably got all I needed from this thread (clarification that the treats-for-cuddles, and over-tickling is wrong. I need to sort it somehow! And I have a few assertive phrases that hopefully will get the point across, but not too agressively either). I'm happy with that for now. Thanks again all.

I still think you are giving yourself too much work and overthinking it.

Would it not be easier to grab your dad at a good moment and just say' look dad, I know you love to play those tickling games with DD but sometimes it gets out of hand and she gets upset. Can you not do it please?'

I can't for the life of me see how having her ask 13 times and him not stop is acceptable- yet you'd put her through it and talk about it after it's happened again rather than take the initiative now.

But if I'm in the vicinity, dd2 can come to me if FIL is over-doing the tickling and tell me

Yes she'll tell you once it's over...poor little mite. Having suffered it.

You sound scared of talking to your family and friends, tbh.

You husband has a point that there's all kinds of people and your daughter is going to have to deal with them. It's OK if you talk to your friend and FIL, but I think that essentially you need to teach your daughter that she needs to make her wishes clear and act of them - she is looking for you for support. So let her know you support her, and encourage her to act for herself.

If that's what you want to believe it's up to you.

According to you I'm either in the wrong for "attempting to police the situation by always being in the room or whatever." or in the wrong for NOT being in the room and letting her tell me "once it's all over...poor little mite." Which I don't find particularly constructive or helpful.

Do you think I should ring him up, seemingly out of the blue, have a go at him on the phone, about something, that may or may not have happened exactly as dd2 said? How is that going to be a good idea?

No thanks. I think I'll check out the situation first.

I've never made dd1 (5) kiss or cuddle anyone that she doesn't want to, even my parents. It hurts me and them when she won't kiss them goodbye (she always says goodbye nicely) but I feel very strongly that her rights over her own personal space is more important.

x-post

That was for lavenderhoney - also he is not MY dad. He is DP's dad. If it were my own dad, I would just spit it out, but the relationship I have with FIL is more distant. I feel it's really DP who should be speaking to FIL about it, but he won't, which puts me in a more awkward position. Yes I could just say it, but it's more likely to be taken as criticism coming from me, so I have to tread carefully. You disagree, clearly, but that's your opinion. Thanks, but I disagree.

Oops oh no, I meant annhathaway! Sorry lavenderhoney - that'll teach me to type in a rush! LOL

Similar issues here with fil and tickling sometimes. Like your dd, ds enjoys it - until he wants him to stop.
I also appreciate its hard just to bring it up and you (or dh preferably) need to call him on it at the time. Could you show dh this thread and ask him to keep an eye out next time you're round there?

you're very defensive OP just because you don't happen to agree

why are you taking things to extreme in your replies? No, of course you don't ring up up out of the blue- did I say that?

But you must be able to say to him that you'd like a word about something when you visit him next time?

Have you read my earlier posts? I was that child tickled by an uncle. I know exactly how it feels and it's horrible. My mum used to arrive on the scene and when I was screaming and ask my uncle to stop. He knew he'd gone too far but it didn't stop him the next time, or the next....and I used to dread him visiting. And as I said, it didn't stop at tickling but carried on to something more sinister when I was a teenager. I'm not saying this will of course, no, but it's still unwanted physical contact and no amount of baking , gardening or having other fun excuses that.

Passthesherry:) that's ok- but it is important that your dd learns how to say no and is supported by you and your dp.

She too might learn when someone says no you keep right on going, which may cause problems at school.

I teach both my dc, boy and girl, around the same age range, if someone says no, you stop. That's it. So they should be afforded the same respect.

I wouldn't go in guns blazing but I would certainly say something and if it happens when you aren't there, again, you have to step in. Yes, it would be great if you don't have to. But you might. Being grandad doesn't give you carte Blanche.

Could you also prime dd1 so that if she is around when this happens again, she could say something along the lines of oh gdad if dd2 says stop then you'd better stop - if you carry on tickling her, her feet start to kick out and she can't help it - you don't want to be kicked do you! And then to come get you/dh/even gmum to come and get him to stop.

Hearing this might also help dd2 to kick out which might get FIL to stop too...

annhathaway I'm sorry about what happened to you. It must be difficult for you if you think my dd is potentially another victim. Thank you for your concern, but I truly, honestly don't believe there is a sexual motive going on. You're right that unwanted physical contact is enough to warrant challenging, and I will.

I didn't say there was a sexual motive or even the likelihood of it but I did say that's what happened to me. It's just unpleasant being touched in a non sexual way by an older ( male) person / relative when they won't stop when you say so- it's about control and a tiny bit of bullying perhaps. I hope you find a way to mention it and the same with the kissing- again, my parents 'instructed me' to kiss relatives before saying goodbye etc and it was awful!

I do understand what you say about it being to do with control and a tiny element of bullying - I don't get why an adult would use their strength to overpower a small child, even in tickling. Thanks for your input even though we sort of disagreed about how to go about tackling it - I appreciate that you're posting because you want to help.