SAHM feeling a bit useless/belittled

[caramelgirl]

Apologies for length.
Hi, am looking for advice about things I can do to resolve/improve our situation. I will pre emptively say that I know we are materially v v lucky and I appreciate this. I just would like to make the relationship side better.
Been with DH 10 years, married 5, 2 DC, 4yDD & 7moDS. Rented house in London.
We both went to Cambridge, he came out with a 1st in maths, me with a 2.1 in history When we met, post Uni, we were both jobless but I'd had, and left, a fairly well paid consulting job whereas he was looking to enter banking.
10 years on he is on a v v good wage. I have has a fairly chequered career having had several different jobs which I've not stuck out. Retrained as a therapist, then had DC1 as planned, and then, after 18 months of trying DC2. DH works fairly long hours and is away anroad fairly often. I am in charge of house stuff, making him packed lunch, dinner and children. DD attends nursery 3 short days a week. I am meant to be in charge of savings too.
I'd always wanted to be a mum. Pretty much sum total of my ambitions, both of us had SAHMs but mine is now breadwinner and my dad retired. His Ma never went back and has probably suffered a bit for that (in terms of esteem and stimulation I would guess).
DH has always planned to leave after 10-12 years. He'd never had the Dream of banking, tho' has enjoyed the intellectual challenge etc.. He is a keen tax payer(!), mentors kids etc., we tithe his base salary. In short he is, honestly, not a tosser in an environment where most of his colleagues are to some degree.
He is frustrated that I am not working, and especially that I did not work when we were trying for DC2 (I kept thinking that the next cycle would be The One, etc.).
We are saving money so that he can leave his job, we can buy a house without a mortgage and he can go back to Uni. Again, I know this is exceptionally lucky. Plan is that then we will both work, I think I'll try to do therapy stuff in evenings but maybe look to be a teaching assistant or something. If we have DC3 then I'll probably stay at home until they are 3 or 4. Unless DH can fit it around his work/study.
I have not been good at managing savings. In fact I don't think I've been v good value as a SAHM. Children happy and fed, washing (so much washing, done) but house chaotic (and this is with cleaner), helper twice a week for 3 hours to help with bedtime, but our paperwork etc. us still disorganised. Lots of his colleagues have v v glam wives and I am not..
He is a brilliant dad, really involved and imaginative. Other people's kids look him out at parties and in the park. He'd be a brilliant nursery worker if we could afford for him to do that! So he is good at his job and good with the kids.
All came to a head last night when I made a comment about a friend whose child had starred school and before I could even finish the sentence he snapped "you'd just get a job if that were you", obviously this is something that he is v stressed about. But it feels every time I say anything he is looking to score a point or criticise me (eg if I say how proud I am of thr DC or something, so I end up hedging my comments or self censoring). We dont get much time together anyway, our sex life is dead after TTC misery and the incredible never sleeping baby. He comes home and often still works over dinner time. Or watches sport on the iPad, I'll mumsnet or grocery order etc. next to him

So...and if you have managed to read this far thank you, what can I do?
We used to be v good at talking through everything and being kind to each other. I feel belittled and I think he feels unsupported. We both believe in marriage being forever and getting through stuff but would prefer not to be looking at 60 years of misery ahead of us.
T I A!

It seems to me that you probably would like to work but have never happened upon the thing that you really find fulfilling.

I am very very good at networking people and hooking people up and setting up social groups and making nights out/kids events/clubs happen.

Hugely valuable skills! Have you considered having a go at a franchise business providing kids classes in drama or music or something along those lines?

As for those who claim a banker willl never stop being a banker: utter rot. I know several people who have given up huge salaries to retrain in something more worthwhile, and are much happier for it. I don't think it is unreasonable for your DH to expect your support in achieving this, and it could well make for a far more content family life for everyone.

Really sorry - I haven't read the thread, just the first post from OP. But I wanted to say that you have described me (including apathy to housework and not being a glam SAHM). Only difference was that I did go back to work (or rather I ran my own business) after kids. But I still halved my earnings and DH and I drifted apart, no sex, me feeling as though he was having a go at me for not working the same hours he did etc.

Then I sold the business and it got worse because for the last two years I have drifted from idea to idea without settling on anything. The kids are at school all day (8 - 4) so I could get a job. Not sure how to cope with the 20 weeks of holiday a year they get though. And DH is a high earner and away a lot.

Long and short of it was that he ended up having an affair. I am not saying that the state of our marriage was the reason he had the affair, but it did contribute to it.

We are now trying to rebuild our marriage. That has involved us going to counselling and talking at home a LOT more. But most importantly, I am seeing a life coach who is trying to help me figure out what I want. Because I think if I am happier, we will be happier. Funnily enough, when I had to work through a set of 'values' cards ie. what is most important to me, guess what came out top?

A sense of purpose. So my suggestion is try to find that - see a life coach if you want - and then once you feel stronger, it will help you tackle the other bits like your marriage.

What an interesting thread. I agree with lots of the posts.

I'm another Oxbridge graduate with a high flying husband. I used to be good at my well-paid job but I gave it up 8 years ago to be a SAHM. I think I am a good mother (and DH agrees) but housework is not my thing. I just find it really boring and depressing. Like you, I'm lucky we can afford to pay for a cleaner once a week.

I am happy and fulfilled as a SAHM, but my youngest DC (I have three) will start school next September and I'm having major issues trying to decide what I want to do.

1. Go back to my former career. But that would mean commuting into London and I wouldn't be around for my kids after school or in the holidays . And realistically my salary will be small compared to DH's (when we met we were earning exactly the same, but he's had a couple of big pay rises since I stopped working).

1. Do something part time / flexible and not worry about earning money, eg voluntary work. But I worry that I will start to feel bored and unfulfilled as the DC become more independent - and it will get harder and harder to return to the workplace.

1. Re-train / study. But what?? I don't seem to have any burning desires.

For me, the pressure isn't coming from my DH, who is happy to support me, but from myself. I realise I am so lucky in many ways, but that doesn't make it any easier!

I do agree about the talking. Good luck OP.

I guess it comes down to with small children, who do you both want to raise them?
If you remain a SAHM you can be there with them in the pre school years.

If you go back to work, a big chunk of your wage if not all ( childcare costs in London) will be used to pay for someone else to look after your kids while you work.

I live in London , have watched a fair amount of my friends do this, they have gone back to work full time with the kids in full time childcare- the wage slip eaten up with childcare fees until the children become school age.

If 'for you' you don't enjoy being 'just a mum' ( not my term, but one widely used) and hanker getting 'back to work', then look into it seriously. It would probably be the making of you.
But if it is because you are being made to feel you have to go back, it may be harder to justify to yourself working just to pay someone to look after your kids so you can work ?

My children are older than yours. Pre kids I had a job / career I loved, but it wasn't highly paid and involved working 'till 8ish at night. Hubs works long hours and regularly travels abroad. He has never been in the position of being reliable ( because of job) for child 'pick up/ drop off' . He is the bigger earner, so I knew it would fall on me.

I stayed at home until mine were at school, then I took a job part time in a secondary school. It doesn't pay big, it isn't a passion of mine, but I don't have to worry about school holidays etc.
It has also given me back 'me' . I go to work and am 'pausingforbreath' not x's wife or x's mum which is how I felt when I was a SAHM. Also I am making a contribution to the finances ,which makes me feel better even if hubs has never had an issue when I was not working.

I like the balance I have now, I still want my pre kids job back ( and will one day) . But I am also finding as they get older my kids need me in different ways ; more mentally than physically ( except for driving to the various out of school teams,clubs etc).

I guess what am saying is work out what suits you best ( as well as what suits your husbands plans) for you to both feel equal and happy in the relationship - both of your needs and wants have to be given equal importance.

Good luck.

millymollymandymax, we didn't buy because we thought the property market was overheated and later on also worried that the crisis would mean canary wharf lay offs would mean oversupply. Because we always meant to leave we worried re losing money on the turnaround. Obviously with hindsight this was not the best tactic.
Uni is because we thought an ex trader is not v easily employable else where, other than hedge funds which he doesn't want to do. Think he'd like to do something positive (as would we all I guess).
PTFswife thank you and sorry to hear about your troubles. Life coach sounds like a really positive step. I will ask my psychotherapist type friends if they have any contacts. I think, obvs don't know, that the risk would be less an affair and more an entirely separate life. His father is eg on board of major cultural institution, does local church stuff, even in retirement is heading up a big enquiry, whilst his Ma (tennis blue, PPE Oxford) sits at home and frets about clutter(!) and flower arranging.
Also, FWIW, 3 days a week nursery for my 4 year old is £950/month. Not sure what baby rate would be for comparison but yes, I would struggle to cover the costs. Therapy I can, in theory, do at home as most people want evenings. I think once baby is sleeping I can look to gradually build that up. I am not yet advertising but have a website and have occasional word of mouth clients.
Plus I've been helping a local personal trainer network and with his website text and structure so he is happy to send me clients once I feel I have sleep enhanced brain enough to help them.
Thanks again, it has been really useful to hear all of this and I am really feeling more positive.
One of my old uni housemates gave a TEDX talk last month and I think it just made me dwell on what I had managed vs her. Whereas she was, in fact, always just doing what she loved. It's a really interesting way of thinking about it all.

Is he unimpressed with you or is he just coming to the realization that the 'better' life he had planned, working at what he actually wanted to do rather than what he had fallen in to, is not just over the horizon, or , in fact, might not be going to happen at all, and he is holding you partly to blame for this, rather than accepting that with a family to provide for you can't swan off following your dreams unless you have an awful lot of savings behind you.

The problem for you could be that you don't know what you want to do or what suits you, in fact maybe you don't know yourself v well. So have no idea what would be fulfilling or what to aim for.

I was a SAHM with a high paid DH. Now, late 50s, realize that the reason I didn't stick the jobs I tried was that I was choosing things that I thought I should do, what would be appropriate for respectable middle class person. And not what suited me, in fact my first career choice was totally unsuited to my temperament, but career advice was v limited in those days. So what about trying a life coach or similar to try to find out what you would enjoy and who you are.

I missed that life coach had already been suggested!

tumbletumble precisely. Not sure there is a good answer... many of my friends are Oxbridge couples 15 years on from you. I found our 30 year reunion fascinating (so we were in our late 40's): only one of the women has a (high powered) job and she is married to a SAHD. The others took (pointless) PhD's, trained as life coaches, are on boards of major charities, got involved tangentially with the Olympics, wrote a book on an obscure figure in history, do some "consultancy" work in their former areas, run a minor trade body, do some local politics, possibly get a school hours job and generally lunch, take up running. None are wildly fulfilled in career terms but nearly all are wildly rich on most measures (due to their DHs' earnings - even though the women were at least as talented as the men). Gosh it's a first world problem not being able to justify the career you were educated for and anticipated, but it can be a real sadness, a kind of bereavement I guess. No answers from me I am afraid. I suspect you have to try to enjoy the benefits - my female friends are all great company, interesting conversationalists and engaged in the world. Maybe (she says optimistically) it might better for you than it was for us - we were just pre meaningful maternity rights and part time working.

caramelwife you are spot on about being wary of leading completely separate lives. Again no real advice. Sorry.

There must be something in this Oxbridge couple phenomena it seems. Does it ring true if it is only the SAHP that is Oxbridge? I am SAHM & had the same if not better career as DP before kids - now similar to OP and many other PPs on this thread. I have just been investigating the state of my mental health as the whole thing has made me become actually clinically depressed. Could this apply to you OP, possibly with PND in the mix too?

hogwash , you are probably right thar my tginking is muddled. I had only wanted to be a mum but now I'm here, whilst very grateful and happy to have my children and really enjoying time with them, I would also like a sliver of me space.. I think that I would be happy at the moment for this just to be doing a bit of therapy related professional development study. I now wonder tho' if I should have a deeper think about viable and interesting ish long term career and/or start showing DH that I am serious about helping to support the family in the future and that I am trying to develop my business or a viable alternative.
He is very keen on having our scheduled chat about us and money and future plans which is good, so I think he has also been aware we aren't communicating well. Now to improve...

Ooh and idlevice from my sample of two (plural of anecdote being data etc. etc.), the two SAHMs with Oxbridge husband marriages seem v v happy on both sides with the status quo. So.. Oxbridge wives are more likely to feel glum headline. Possibly more work needs to be undertaken in this area....?!
And I do hope that you are feeling better soon, I think my misery was greatest when TTC DC2, I feel sad now, but nothing compared to then. Have a good weekend.
profplum thanks for insightful and interesting posts

Tbh hogwash I do really like the therapy, and yes, it is something that should fit into evenings. That was my plan.
But I am just so so tired. I want to help clients and give a good consultation. I don't think I can deliver that atm. Recent ones have been fine but I think if I'd spent the time studying to get some state of the art, and to maintain professional memberships, I would have been better off. Why tired? Trying to night wean DC2 atm and he won't nap very much at all and never really has, (45 mins in the buggy on nursery run if I'm lucky generally), and he wants to be held ALL the time. So even eg doing one handed laundry, trying to tidy, do dishwasher all seem to suck up the day. Plus many bfs and weaning/wiping. The usual, I know and I am v v v glad of him, I want to spend time with him and DC1 (hence trying not to use too many nursery hours). But by the time dinner/bath/bedtime x2, scratch cook our dinner, try to make packed lunch, bathe then I am wrecked. I do stay up for dream feed but I am just so tired I don't feel I am delivering a v good service.
Tiredness I know, in theory- tho' don't believe at the moment(!)-, is temporary. Why didn't I build up my business in between the two DC? Because I had yet to launch it and it seemed silly to advertise etc. everywhere so I could practise intensively in the evenings for maybe 9 months (between DC1 being 1 and sleeping and being too pg to want to spend evenings working. I did have an interview for a national company delivering seminars in my area, but they were, justifiably, doubtful about my long term commitment and flexibility etc. around the family issues. Could I go up to Manchester at short notice? Realistically, no? What were my future plans...
So, in retrospect I would have worked in between the two DC. I did think that DH and I were in accord on the launch my business after all the DC were done. This may have been me, rather than him- I will ask.
Off to dream feed and then sleeeeep now. Thank you for your thoughts. Hope you have had a more exciting evening than us ( we companiably went through more bank statements. Was quite nice and productive tho')

And yes. If I HAD to, I would work. But I don't feel that the imperative is there. I would rather save my energy at the moment for the children if I can. And then the CPD training I must do regularly too.

Aargh, sorry, tired multiple postings. I mean if I had to earn money now, I would work. Not that I don't feel I should ever work. I am just aware that some of my friends haven't had an option and have gone back at 6 weeks pn, obviously my situation is a lot more self indulgent than that.

If you're a therapist surely the obvious answer is couples therapy?

Cambridge have a really, really good careers service that offers lifelong guidance. You could go and talk to them and discuss your skills, experience etc and see what they suggest might be good areas for you? It might give you something to mull over/work towards in future, and a new set of eyes on what you have to offer can be enlightening. You could also set a deadline on starting up your own counselling service, or alternatively approach some local charities and see whether your skills might be a help to them? Dip your toes back in?

Being a good mother is more important than being a good housewife. I know women who are the other way around, and I know which will matter on their deathbeds. It's hard being a good mother. Keeping your temper, keeping positive on crappy days, being creative when all you want to do is plonk them in front of Cbeebies, modelling the behaviour you want to see when you want to scream and tell them to fuck off. Give yourself some credit.

I agree that couples counselling sounds a good idea. You have a good marriage underneath all the crap, so maybe decluttering that should be the priority? But I also think these stressors are normal when the babies are small. Everyone has them, pretty much. And SAHM in the early years is a confidence knock, too. It's not permanent if you make sure you keep a weather eye on future options, as far as I can see.

Fgs. Just that. If you're not working (and I did with two dcs in childcare during the day), the house was spotless, yes we did have a cleaner, but then I devoted my life to the dcs not my job as such. And nowhere near as well off as you.

I don't get why you can't get your shit together frankly. Your dh probably talks to people all day long whose lives are similar but in control.

Sorry if this sounds terse, but I really don't get it.

DCs don't disappear at 5 when they start school. And many mothers feel they are needed more when DCs are in teens, not to look after, more to be there for. So unless DH is keen to take on properly more child responsibilities your work will always come second to DC's needs and won't be a high flying business, instead just your interest that you fit in around running the home imv. (which is not what I want for my DDs so am encouraging them to continue their careers which I didn't and now regret)

monty27 is that helpful to the OP? We all have different strengths and challenges. You are good at cleaning. Well done.

OP concentrate on the more constructive posts. I was just like you - I found housework and young child care mortifyingly dull and tiring. I am not surprised you are tired if you are night weaning and still bf. Don't beat yourself up. Working will wait if and when you want to. perfectstorm gives good advice.

How a couple organises family life/work/childcare is up to them. If the decision for you to be a SAHM was a joint one but his feelings have changed and he is now becoming resentful and making little digs about you not working, you have to discuss it and agree a plan. If you have a young baby and you want a third dc and you have no career, I don't see how you can realistically do any meaningful work. What about planning to work when the children are in full-time school?

It sounds like the therapy will work well once your DH is in a different job and can be around in the evenings for the children. You also need to remember that your youngest isn't a year old yet, and not sleeping properly I'd imagine. It wasn't until mine was a year old that I really got my mind back again from the hazy sleep fog of broken nights. If the plan is to do bits of therapy now, then get more work once your youngest is one, that would be a good one.

Can I just say that I have been there and I sympathise - My dh travelled a lot when the children were small and he also had a lack of respect for what I did all day. Can I recommend an illuminating book - What Mothers Do by Naomi Stadlen - as a therapist you'll probably find it fascinating. The house looked like a bombsite when the kids were small but with time we've managed to get their clutter confined to their rooms now, they are 11 and 13. I left a well paid pm role in telecomms after my firstborn, as I could not see how that job would be compatible with the kind of family life I wanted. I spent 5 years at home but joined vrs charity initiatives (stayed clear of the lady who lunches type of volunteering and did stuff that really made a difference by what I was doing rather than what I was raising). I still have resentment over the fact that what I did was never recognised - but in the interests of a harmonious house have just given up on trying to receive any acknowledgement of my contribution. ymmv but this is what I have had to do, I'm not saying you should do anything - just sharing my experience.

Anyway I have successfully found a job/niche that provides me with the work/life balance and job satisfaction that works for me. I am a Student Support Officer in a local FE college, working full time term time only less two final weeks in the summer so I get eight weeks instead of six, which for us is perfect (Mum gets a little holiday, time to sort things out before the big holidays begin) I knew that what I wanted was something with school holidays but not in a classroom or teaching. And I found it, also that I wanted to work with people, I had been a volunteer working with that age group 16-19's for ten years before I had children so I was already familiar with their issues (the don't change, guys :) ) I don't bring home a huge amount of money but it pays for the food shopping, with two boys that is not insignificant. We have two counsellors at our college and I know several friends who work as uni counsellors. You sound like you have a passion for therapy, perhaps a part time salaried position where you can plan the childcare might be a solution? I know that schools, colleges and universities are increasingly providing these services. I looked at my voluntary work as job experience (as I needed it) and CV enhancement for when I returned to work as I was planning to do- which certainly helped with the motivation.

The only other thing I can say with any certainty is that children grow and change and the solution that works for you family at any one particular time will change as they grow, so staying flexible is key imhop.

If you only have 2 kids and help I do think its strange you cant get your business or house together?